CJ VDL

[Doc]

CJ has been injured a lot more than any of us, not least him I'm sure, would like.

If any of you muppets could be bothered watching the matches on replay you'd notice the amount of good work he does (thank you Broken Wing). Think back to the Scarlets away game - he made the first (or second) try with a wonderful take and give under extreme pressure. He also scrummaged impressively and did plenty of hard work in the loose. You might also like to think back to a similar incident against Wasps at home last year which also led to a try.

As for Ross, I've generally liked what I've seen - but it is obvious that he needs to lose a bit of weight if he wants to make anything like the impression in general play that the 3 props ahead of him do - obviously something that Cheika looks for. But to be fair to the guy, the 'penalty' against London Irish was a blatant refereeing error.

[Oldschool]

CJ has been injured a lot more than any of us, not least him I'm sure, would like.

If any of you muppets could be bothered watching the matches on replay you'd notice the amount of good work he does (thank you Broken Wing). Think back to the Scarlets away game - he made the first (or second) try with a wonderful take and give under extreme pressure. He also scrummaged impressively and did plenty of hard work in the loose. You might also like to think back to a similar incident against Wasps at home last year which also led to a try.

As for Ross, I've generally liked what I've seen - but it is obvious that he needs to lose a bit of weight if he wants to make anything like the impression in general play that the 3 props ahead of him do - obviously something that Cheika looks for. But to be fair to the guy, the 'penalty' against London Irish was a blatant refereeing error.

If we are being fair, CJ has been unlucky, without a doubt.
But Ross and every other player in the squad is entitled to be treated fairly.
Ross needs to be given a fair crack of the whip.
I'm left wondering did MC want him at all and is basically giving the two fingers
to the IRFU, because they:-
A. Insisted Leinster sign him.
B. Stopped Giteau's signing.

Ultimately the IRFU pay his (MC) wages, so while he gets a lot of lattitude, his ultimate employer is entitled to expect
a return on that investment, ie all things being (almost) equal, the irish qualified player should get the nod.
I think we will all agree, CJ hasn't exactly set the world on fire, is leaving at the end of the season and has been
given every opportunity possible, to do his stuff.
Now it should be Ross' turn.
He made the commitment to return home and he should be getting the shout, ahead of CJ.
He'll be here next season and CJ won't.
Next match up, he should start, with CJ and with Stan on the bench.
Stan is the guy we need for the HC, so we should be looking after him.

[suisse]

If any of you muppets could be bothered watching the matches on replay you'd notice the amount of good work he does (thank you Broken Wing). Think back to the Scarlets away game - he made the first (or second) try with a wonderful take and give under extreme pressure. He also scrummaged impressively and did plenty of hard work in the loose. You might also like to think back to a similar incident against Wasps at home last year which also led to a try.

Yes, thank you for the update moron. If you check back to the Llanelli-Leinster matchday thread, you'll see myself and Hugonaut (and possibly others) discussing this and giving the man the praise he deserved. The fact that he had the vision to off-load prior to being hit with a thumping tackle has little relevance to his lack of movement on the pitch now, just like his recent injuries don't either. I think most people are fully aware of his awesome scrummaging abilities, but that's not what is being debated here (well, for the most part)

[ronk]

If we are being fair, CJ has been unlucky, without a doubt.
But Ross and every other player in the squad is entitled to be treated fairly.
Ross needs to be given a fair crack of the whip.
I'm left wondering did MC want him at all and is basically giving the two fingers
to the IRFU, because they:-
A. Insisted Leinster sign him.
B. Stopped Giteau's signing.

Ultimately the IRFU pay his (MC) wages, so while he gets a lot of lattitude, his ultimate employer is entitled to expect
a return on that investment, ie all things being (almost) equal, the irish qualified player should get the nod.
I think we will all agree, CJ hasn't exactly set the world on fire, is leaving at the end of the season and has been
given every opportunity possible, to do his stuff.
Now it should be Ross' turn.
He made the commitment to return home and he should be getting the shout, ahead of CJ.
He'll be here next season and CJ won't.
Next match up, he should start, with CJ and with Stan on the bench.
Stan is the guy we need for the HC, so we should be looking after him.

I don't get this, Ross has been a fantastic signing for us. His only crime is not pushing CJ to the bench. He was never signed for that, he replaced Knoop in the squad. He's played regularly and meant that injuries never hurt us.

I've never once seen Ross go onto the pitch and thought: does this make us weaker? If he's good enough to tactically replace someone for fresh legs rather than only ever when someone is injured, then he's been a great signing.

In the HC final McCormack was coming on when Wright got binned and I was bricking it. Now he did okay, but he was also only going to used if we had to. Ross means we have 4 really good options instead of 3.

The rule change next season will mean that props playing 80 minutes will become a rarity at the top level.

[tate]

dont know if any of you were watching the clermont game on setanta there over the w/end, but emmett byrne said that he would rather have a prop who can scrummage and offers nothing else than one who plays like a 4th backrower and couldnt hold up traffic (my words). An interesting point and one which i whole heartedly agree with. If you are relying on yuor props to get something going, perhaps looking at your backs and backrow would yield better results.

And finally, did you not see his downfield punt that had the pitch been longer would have resulted in conway getting his first try for leinster?

[BlueBlue]

I dont claim to be an expert on the front row, and have given him the benefit of the doubt etc due to injury. But i have to say, the first few posts on this topic are apt. The guy got side stepped yesterday and didnt even flinch, e just watched the guy run around him, he didnt even stick out a paw to try catch him. It was a sure try if not for the scrambe defence. He then couldnt be botherd to get back in the line, and because he was a lazy runner - much like the italian defenders - he intercepted a pass cos he was amongst the on rushing attackers.

So a scrum half ran around a big prop ! outragous .

[BlueBlue]

Watched the game yesterday but after seeing this thread I kept an eye out for CJ in the highlights on Against the Head tonight. He was involved in everything in the highlights - hitting rucks, carrying into contact, making himself available for passes, tackling and getting back up to take his place in the defensive line.

Obviously he has his many detractors here but I've no problem with him.

Make that 2 people who have no problem with him, we must have been watching the same match. Don't know what other people were watching.

This player bashing is a bandwagon.

[Rob K]

I know who I want on the pitch come kick off time in the HEC 1/4 final and its not Ross...

Healy and Stan for sure, with CJ back on his couch in SA eating a box of donuts

[RoboProp]

Safe to say I'd have Ollie Le Roux before him everyday of the week and twice on Sundays!

[brummie-leinster-man]

Ultimately the IRFU pay his (MC) wages

Really?

This player bashing is a bandwagon.

It does seem a bit like that to be fair

[Oldschool]

Ultimately the IRFU pay his (MC) wages

Really?

This player bashing is a bandwagon.

It does seem a bit like that to be fair

Actually - I stand corrected - It is we , the fans, who pay his wages.
Thank you for reminding me.
Personally I don't think I'm getting value for money.

[Vamos los azules]

There's no denying that CJ does produce good stuff by occasion but I think the value for money thing is a good point as to why people may not be CJ fans. At a shrewd guess his annual pay could well be higher than the likes of Heaslip, Kearney and Fitzgerald (I may stand to be corrected on this but I don't recall hearing anything of any of them having signed new deals since the Grand Slam win so I would assume their basic salary may not be as high as it could be if negotiated today). Or if we want to keep this to NIQs more than Nacewa and Stan. Which of those players has contributed most to us over the past year? Probably not the most expensive one.

[Peg Leg]

This isnt a bandwagon. its constructive criticism! We all know that CJ is goin to read this, lap it up and eat the next scrum half that tries to get around him!

Oldschool, you not getting value for money from MC or CJ? either way methinks your hard to please.

[jezzer]

There's no denying that CJ does produce good stuff by occasion but I think the value for money thing is a good point as to why people may not be CJ fans. At a shrewd guess his annual pay could well be higher than the likes of Heaslip, Kearney and Fitzgerald (I may stand to be corrected on this but I don't recall hearing anything of any of them having signed new deals since the Grand Slam win so I would assume their basic salary may not be as high as it could be if negotiated today). Or if we want to keep this to NIQs more than Nacewa and Stan. Which of those players has contributed most to us over the past year? Probably not the most expensive one.

Nope. Not in my case.

He's just entirely unimpressive. We fielded a pack on Sun with beanpoles Mal and Toner at second row and a knackered Jackman at hooker. A selection like that is going to put your rucking game to the test in a serious way and means your other players are going to have to put in serious shifts at the breakdown to compensate. Jennings, Kev and Keogh worked their bloody socks off, as did Stan. CJ was considerably less effective at tackling, rucking, and loose play than someone like Toner. That shoudl never happen. Your tighthead should be a piano shifter and a grafter. CJ is not a grafter. He's not a guy you want with you in the trenches (not that i'm speaking for the team!)

I'm not on the Ross bandwagon per se, but I was very impressed with his last spell. I started this thread before CJ went off.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

One thing I would say is that I was never particularly impressed with CJ's workrate when he was in SA so I don't think that's suddenly become a factor over here. He did a lot of good things on Sunday and they certainly far outweighed the bad moments. I was disappointed with him a few months back when it came out in the Indo (I think) that he was planning on going back to SA in the Summer and how he didn't really owe us anything which I wouldn't agree with due to how much he's been injured but to be fair it appears he was misquoted. On the pitch I've no real complaints but I wonder how fit he really is? If he gets a run of games and/or is used as an impact sub or for the first 50 minutes of a game then I think he'll be outstanding.

[brummie-leinster-man]

Ultimately the IRFU pay his (MC) wages

Really?

This player bashing is a bandwagon.

It does seem a bit like that to be fair

Actually - I stand corrected - It is we , the fans, who pay his wages.
Thank you for reminding me.
Personally I don't think I'm getting value for money.

He's done some good things in the time he's been here but he does give the impression that his bags are already packed and his plane ticket is sitting on the mantlepeice.

New season, new coach. To be honest I dont really know that much about Schmidt but if he's planning on staying for a while hopefully he will concentrate on developing the younger players a bit more.

BTW - where is MC off to? Is he goin to another club?

[Sauvignon Blank]

Strange one this. CJ has without doubt got what it takes in the scrum.
In the loose i'm not so sure but then again he was never a prolific ball carrier in SA nor was he known for his devestating scrummaging.
He was for all intents and purposes an all round tough forward.
Without question he has struggled with his injuries and consequently his fitness.
Does he give 100% for the jersey? I believe he does. Injuries at this level can be very debillatating.
Was he misquoted in the indo? possibly.
Unfortunately we may never get to see him fully fit for a whole entire season which would be reflected IMHO in better performances. I think back in particular to the Scarletts in the HC and how utterly dominant he was in that game.

If this is CJ's last season then we should be using him as an impact sub owing to his fitness levels and giving Ross some game time.
Ross also needs to lose a few KGs' too, hes got a bigger arse than Ollie Le Roux...and he was a big man.

[ronk]

He's done some good things in the time he's been here but he does give the impression that his bags are already packed and his plane ticket is sitting on the mantlepeice.

New season, new coach. To be honest I dont really know that much about Schmidt but if he's planning on staying for a while hopefully he will concentrate on developing the younger players a bit more.

BTW - where is MC off to? Is he goin to another club?

I'm not really sure what to say to that. All his signings are doing well, we're well setup and probably a stronger team in a lot of ways than last season. Right now we're top of the Magners League and we have a home QF in the Heineken Cup. We're going into every game well prepared, organised and motivated.

We just beat a Cardiff team studded with internationals away using a 2nd string team including starting an 18 year old from the academy with one A appearance and 6 minutes off the bench against an experienced Welsh international.

I don't think it's humanly possible that Cheika could do a better job of developing young players, if Schmidt does better then we have a lot to look forward to.

[Scott]

He's done some good things in the time he's been here but he does give the impression that his bags are already packed and his plane ticket is sitting on the mantlepeice.

New season, new coach. To be honest I dont really know that much about Schmidt but if he's planning on staying for a while hopefully he will concentrate on developing the younger players a bit more.

BTW - where is MC off to? Is he goin to another club?

I'm not really sure what to say to that. All his signings are doing well, we're well setup and probably a stronger team in a lot of ways than last season. Right now we're top of the Magners League and we have a home QF in the Heineken Cup. We're going into every game well prepared, organised and motivated.



We just beat a Cardiff team studded with internationals away using a 2nd string team including starting an 18 year old from the academy with one A appearance and 6 minutes off the bench against an experienced Welsh international.

I don't think it's humanly possible that Cheika could do a better job of developing young players, if Schmidt does better then we have a lot to look forward to.

Is he talking about MC or CJVL

[johng]

In the 1st paragraph Brummie is talking about CJ. In the 2nd Schmidt. In the 3rd Cheika.

What is shocking Ronk (I think) is the fact that in the 2nd paragraph Brummie says "hopefully he (Schmidt) will concentrate on developing the younger players a bit more (than Cheika)"

For the record. I think Cheika has done a bang up job. (i.e. Excellent) If I had a criticism, it would be his communication with the media and the fans. But then perhaps the same part of his personality that made him lack in that department made him better in more important ones.

I believe he is independently wealthy and does not need the Donal Lunny he gets from Leinster to survive.

That might explain why he is a bit private.