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Leinster full back, Ireland out half

Postby curates_egg » November 21st, 2017, 9:29 am

There is a strong whiff of deja vu about this one, only the player in question this time arguably has a higher ceiling.
Schmidt and Graham Henry think Carbery is a special talent at 10. For those who missed his post-match interview on Saturday, this is almost as close as Schmidt gets to a dig: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-j9tM3sTgy0
Leinster rugby management and some vocal supporters on here appear convinced his future is at 15. Leinster is certainly making a very strong statement at the moment by giving him zero minutes at 10.

I have no clue. I simply enjoy watching him play. And I like the exciting way he can influence a game at 10. But I don't know enough to judge what is right.
What I do believe is that a decision needs to be made one way or another, which both sides implement.
EOS last night suggested Carbery needs to leave: https://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby/2017/112 ... osullivan/
That didn't work out so well for the last example, and I would hate for us to lose Carbery.
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Re: Leinster full back, Ireland out half

Postby curates_egg » November 21st, 2017, 9:30 am

Maybe we should play him at scrum half?
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Re: Leinster full back, Ireland out half

Postby mildlyinterested » November 21st, 2017, 9:43 am

Joey Carbery - rugby player, i'm sure he will get gametime at 10 in 2018.

People need to stop giving the idea he is leaving any oxygen...

eddie being a typical munster man with his comments.
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Re: Leinster full back, Ireland out half

Postby Oldschoolsocks » November 21st, 2017, 9:45 am

curates_egg wrote:There is a strong whiff of deja vu about this one, only the player in question this time arguably has a higher ceiling.
Schmidt and Graham Henry think Carbery is a special talent at 10. For those who missed his post-match interview on Saturday, this is almost as close as Schmidt gets to a dig: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-j9tM3sTgy0
Leinster rugby management and some vocal supporters on here appear convinced his future is at 15. Leinster is certainly making a very strong statement at the moment by giving him zero minutes at 10.

I have no clue. I simply enjoy watching him play. And I like the exciting way he can influence a game at 10. But I don't know enough to judge what is right.
What I do believe is that a decision needs to be made one way or another, which both sides implement.
EOS last night suggested Carbery needs to leave: https://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby/2017/112 ... osullivan/
That didn't work out so well for the last example, and I would hate for us to lose Carbery.


Bomber seems to see his future at 10: http://www.the42.ie/stuart-lancaster-jo ... 3-Nov2017/

And as for EOS - is he seriously saying that Joey C won’t get enough time at 10 because JS will be keeping him out of the team?? It’s Ross Byrne and lack of fullbacks and ICs that has been keeping Carbery at 15. With Rob K back fit and James Lowe after landing and Isa back soon the scenery looks a whole lot different.

Seriously man, imho, taking EOS seriously is almost as bad as basing an argument on the column that Tony Ward (pretends to) write.
the irony being that ad-hominen and appeal to majority are the most often used defences of the apologist.
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Re: Leinster full back, Ireland out half

Postby Dave Cahill » November 21st, 2017, 10:04 am

Oldschoolsocks wrote:
Bomber seems to see his future at 10: http://www.the42.ie/stuart-lancaster-jo ... 3-Nov2017/



Bomber basically said we were going to give him some time at 10 in against Dragons and Treviso - its hardly a resounding vote of confidence.

The games he's referring to are these two, the Exeter double header and the Boxing day game against Munster

He ain't playing 10 against Exeter and the Munster game is the day of the Irish camp usually.

So that leaves...

Whoop.

Lets also put this Graham Henry thing to bed. A New Zealander thinks another New Zealander is better at something than anyone from anywhere else. Well that only happens all the time.
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Re: Leinster full back, Ireland out half

Postby curates_egg » November 21st, 2017, 10:05 am

Oldschoolsocks wrote:
curates_egg wrote:There is a strong whiff of deja vu about this one, only the player in question this time arguably has a higher ceiling.
Schmidt and Graham Henry think Carbery is a special talent at 10. For those who missed his post-match interview on Saturday, this is almost as close as Schmidt gets to a dig: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-j9tM3sTgy0
Leinster rugby management and some vocal supporters on here appear convinced his future is at 15. Leinster is certainly making a very strong statement at the moment by giving him zero minutes at 10.

I have no clue. I simply enjoy watching him play. And I like the exciting way he can influence a game at 10. But I don't know enough to judge what is right.
What I do believe is that a decision needs to be made one way or another, which both sides implement.
EOS last night suggested Carbery needs to leave: https://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby/2017/112 ... osullivan/
That didn't work out so well for the last example, and I would hate for us to lose Carbery.


Bomber seems to see his future at 10: http://www.the42.ie/stuart-lancaster-jo ... 3-Nov2017/

And as for EOS - is he seriously saying that Joey C won’t get enough time at 10 because JS will be keeping him out of the team?? It’s Ross Byrne and lack of fullbacks and ICs that has been keeping Carbery at 15. With Rob K back fit and James Lowe after landing and Isa back soon the scenery looks a whole lot different.

Seriously man, imho, taking EOS seriously is almost as bad as basing an argument on the column that Tony Ward (pretends to) write.


Jesus that's a terribly written article. Painful to read. It's like he's channelling Cummisky.
Hadn't seen the Bomber comments though. Thanks.
I know people like to ridicule EOS but I don't think what he usually says is that bad (how he says it sometimes yes). In this case, I would agree he is getting ahead of himself.
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Re: Leinster full back, Ireland out half

Postby curates_egg » November 21st, 2017, 10:09 am

Dave Cahill wrote:Lets also put this Graham Henry thing to bed. A New Zealander thinks another New Zealander is better at something than anyone from anywhere else. Well that only happens all the time.


Two New Zealanders unless you think Schmidt's Irish passport changes that.
Your opinion on this matter is clear but do you have to play the man all the time?

I don't have a clear opinion, beyond play him one position for club and country.
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Re: Leinster full back, Ireland out half

Postby mildlyinterested » November 21st, 2017, 10:11 am

continue with current plan of playing him wherever he is needed, if time comes that Carbery demands to play 10 only then make a decision from there.

also this chat over nothing really.
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Re: Leinster full back, Ireland out half

Postby Dave Cahill » November 21st, 2017, 10:26 am

curates_egg wrote:
Dave Cahill wrote:Lets also put this Graham Henry thing to bed. A New Zealander thinks another New Zealander is better at something than anyone from anywhere else. Well that only happens all the time.


Two New Zealanders unless you think Schmidt's Irish passport changes that.
Your opinion on this matter is clear but do you have to play the man all the time?

I don't have a clear opinion, beyond play him one position for club and country.


If the man is wrong, then why shouldn't I? Graham Henry is a very good technical unit coach, one of the best - but he was an okay head coach at best.

Leinster's success has always come from teams playing highly structured rugby around an orthodox outhalf.
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Re: Leinster full back, Ireland out half

Postby Laighin Break » November 21st, 2017, 10:44 am

Dave Cahill wrote:
curates_egg wrote:
Dave Cahill wrote:Lets also put this Graham Henry thing to bed. A New Zealander thinks another New Zealander is better at something than anyone from anywhere else. Well that only happens all the time.


Two New Zealanders unless you think Schmidt's Irish passport changes that.
Your opinion on this matter is clear but do you have to play the man all the time?

I don't have a clear opinion, beyond play him one position for club and country.


If the man is wrong, then why shouldn't I? Graham Henry is a very good technical unit coach, one of the best - but he was an okay head coach at best.

Leinster's success has always come from teams playing highly structured rugby around an orthodox outhalf.


Felipe was hardly an orthodox outhalf
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Re: Leinster full back, Ireland out half

Postby curates_egg » November 21st, 2017, 10:46 am

Dave Cahill wrote:
curates_egg wrote:
Dave Cahill wrote:Lets also put this Graham Henry thing to bed. A New Zealander thinks another New Zealander is better at something than anyone from anywhere else. Well that only happens all the time.


Two New Zealanders unless you think Schmidt's Irish passport changes that.
Your opinion on this matter is clear but do you have to play the man all the time?

I don't have a clear opinion, beyond play him one position for club and country.


If the man is wrong, then why shouldn't I? Graham Henry is a very good technical unit coach, one of the best - but he was an okay head coach at best.

Leinster's success has always come from teams playing highly structured rugby around an orthodox outhalf.


OK. Leave Henry aside then. What about Schmidt and his opinion?

Not totally convinced about your point on our success. We won the Cup in 2009 and Felipe was 10 for a chunk of that. But, if you are talking solely in terms of European finals, then our success has come only with Johnny Sexton at 10. I'm not sure it is not false equivalence to suggest we would not have won without him though (apart from 2011 obviously).

Either way, I just wish Leinster's and Ireland's management were on the same page. Find it interesting that Bomber chose the Barrett comparison; could have equally picked McKenzie. The difference is that - in both cases - they were/are being eased into the international game at 15 and getting experience at 10 for their clubs. It seems to be the opposite of this case.
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Re: Leinster full back, Ireland out half

Postby riocard911 » November 21st, 2017, 11:10 am

Carbery himself made reference to Barrett's interchanging between 15 and 10 in a recent interview and didn't see a similar approach with himself as a problem, as long as he was getting game time. People want to see him play, then when he plays at 15 and Ross Byrne at 10 'cos due to injury considerations, the same people complain. No comprende......
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Re: Leinster full back, Ireland out half

Postby Dave Cahill » November 21st, 2017, 11:32 am

Joe Schmidt actually had a pretty mediocre record with signings as Leinster coach - for every Brad Thorn there was a Jamie Hagan, for every Nathan White there was a Clint (Craig) Newland (Ryland).

He has found himself in an awkward position partly of his own creation. Due to his having Sexton in situ and Jackson maturing into a fine outhalf he wasn't too exercised about where Carbury played. He had options that were playing regularly. But with Jackson now unavailable for the foreseeable future, Schmidt finds himself in a tight spot. He has Sexton, but after that? Ulster have nothing, Connacht have nothing. Munster have Keatley certainly, but Bleyandaal doesn't appear to have it and JJ seems to have lost it for the time being. Meanwhile, as is often the case, Leinster have a couple of guys. Carbury of course, then there is Byrne and Marsh who both have all the ability required to play at the highest levels. I would query if Byrne has the pace though and I'm not certain about Marshes temperament.

Ironically the solution was simple. This exact time last year there was an Irish outhalf basically hawking himself around the provinces in the hope of getting a contract, but there were no takers and not much interest from the Irish Coach or Director of Rugby either. Turns out that at least two of the provinces could have done with signing Madigan though.
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Re: Leinster full back, Ireland out half

Postby olaf the fat » November 21st, 2017, 11:47 am

Where would he go at this stage to develop into a international 10?

Munster have Bleyendaal, Keatley and JJ - all established or further down the road than JC - battle it out with Conway, Earls or sweetman for what ever combination of FB/ wing they go for.

Ulster - he can deputise for lealiifana - maybe minutes here and there in the P14, (maybe PJ will make it back?) - he wont get a look at 15

Connacht - Fight out with Carty or Deegan to play in the challenge cup.

Go abroad? Ian Madigan? Zebo?

He is clearly in the best place already. He is limited to experience at 15 - but not by Sexton, by another up and coming Irish out half. Leinster are just a bit better stocked than everybody else, but that does not mean JC could do better elsewhere.
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Re: Leinster full back, Ireland out half

Postby harblstuff » November 21st, 2017, 11:54 am

New Zealanders seem to be happy swapping out at 10 and 15.

Granted in defence at 10 he is under more pressure and at 15 he has more time to decide and react, he is at 15 as Kearney has been injured, we have injuries galore in the centre so Nacewa would slot in there instead of 15 were he not injured himself. It looks like pundits, reporters and personalities in the world of rugby media have all forgotten Leinster's injury list and are just frothing at the mouth that he's not playing at 10 despite Leinster's current needs. It's sensationalism at its best.

I'd rather see him with game time developing rugby skills than play him at 10, Byrne on the bench and have problems at Full Back. Instead of developing two players (Byrne and Carbery), we'd be developing one and praying we don't leak tries in defence.

I love what Ross Byrne is developing in to and he's completely overshadowed - would Carbery start over Byrne if both were fit, we had a fit back three and centre partnership? Yeah, he would. Would Carbery start over Sexton? Depending on the match, but I would still feel they would play Carbery in one or two important fixtures - especially if there are any questions about Sexton's fitness/health (even if minor: See Montpellier)

When players return to fitness/to Leinster and we can afford to start Carbery with Byrne on the bench, then I'd like to see it, but I won't be disappointed if he's at Full Back either.
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Re: Leinster full back, Ireland out half

Postby Oldschoolsocks » November 21st, 2017, 12:06 pm

Dave Cahill wrote:
curates_egg wrote:
Dave Cahill wrote:Lets also put this Graham Henry thing to bed. A New Zealander thinks another New Zealander is better at something than anyone from anywhere else. Well that only happens all the time.


Two New Zealanders unless you think Schmidt's Irish passport changes that.
Your opinion on this matter is clear but do you have to play the man all the time?

I don't have a clear opinion, beyond play him one position for club and country.


If the man is wrong, then why shouldn't I? Graham Henry is a very good technical unit coach, one of the best - but he was an okay head coach at best.

Leinster's success has always come from teams playing highly structured rugby around an orthodox outhalf.


Don’t see any problem with building structure into JC’s game - he needs to be given to opportunity to realize he’s playing at a different level and not waltzing around lumps in the AIL.

He could turn out to be a very special out half if given the development time to do it.

I’m also a big fan of Ross Byrne btw and don’t see why it has to be either or.
the irony being that ad-hominen and appeal to majority are the most often used defences of the apologist.
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Re: Leinster full back, Ireland out half

Postby Raydollard » November 21st, 2017, 12:33 pm

Play him at 10 where he is the best we have or let him move to a club that will play him at 10.
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Re: Leinster full back, Ireland out half

Postby CiaranIrl » November 21st, 2017, 12:53 pm

He's just turned 22 for Christ's sake. Most Irish talents his age aren't getting getting top level gametime in any position. He's learning more by playing 15 than by not playing at all. What gametime was Sexton getting when he had just turned 22?
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Re: Leinster full back, Ireland out half

Postby LeRouxIsPHat » November 21st, 2017, 1:13 pm

I watched Against The Head last night and knew this would become a big deal :lol:

It's entirely rational for EOS to suggest that Carbery should get more games at ten but he didn't really put it into context at all, didn't mention Ross Byrne, Sexton's injuries, or the poor performances Joey had at ten towards the end of last season. We've had him concentrate on 15 where he's got his confidence back and been excellent, which then allowed him to perform better last weekend. Our depth in the back three should be better upon his return so there's more scope to play him at ten and that's what I'd do. That might end up being harsh on Ross Byrne if he does well but we should be able to share game time quite fairly and besides, when was the last time that Sexton, Byrne, Joey, and Rob were all fit and available at the same time?
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Re: Leinster full back, Ireland out half

Postby the spoofer » November 21st, 2017, 1:21 pm

Dave Cahill wrote:
Oldschoolsocks wrote:
Bomber seems to see his future at 10: http://www.the42.ie/stuart-lancaster-jo ... 3-Nov2017/



Bomber basically said we were going to give him some time at 10 in against Dragons and Treviso - its hardly a resounding vote of confidence.

The games he's referring to are these two, the Exeter double header and the Boxing day game against Munster

He ain't playing 10 against Exeter and the Munster game is the day of the Irish camp usually.

So that leaves...

Whoop.

Lets also put this Graham Henry thing to bed. A New Zealander thinks another New Zealander is better at something than anyone from anywhere else. Well that only happens all the time.


What the.......
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