Toulouse vs Leinster

[Dexter]

I'm not sure Leinster underestimated Toulouse, or got got carried away with themselves. Leinster performed poorly, well below their best and below their own standards, while Toulouse played really well and most things came off for them. It happens. It's nigh on impossible to go through consecutive European seasons without a sub-par performance leading to a loss. The really frustrating thing was fighting back into the game, getting the lead, and then literally throwing it away.

[riocard911]

Q: "How are your chances of a home quarter and semi endangered? Did you really expect us to win every single game in the group stages this year?

We have Bath away and home, Toulouse at home and Wasps away. Should win at least 3 if not 4 of thee games."

A: We can top our group, but if the winners in the other four groups have after six matches more points than us, we play away in the quarters. Not getting a win in Toulouse has increased the possibility such a scenario coming about.

Similarly if we don't finish one of the two teams with the most amount of points in the groups stages, we don't get a home semifinal. Unless of course we play an away quarter final and win that.

[tingman]

The day after. We sit on six points and our toughest game in the group is out of the way, we are not in the worst position at all as some have already said.

My personal deflation comes because we let Toulouse off the hook. I get that Toulouse played with flair I am sure it was one of the games of the weekend for neutrals but lets be honest we let them do that. Everything we associate with Leinster intensity, intelligence, respect (of the ball) all looked off from the start.

The couple of times we decided that we would go through a few phrases both in the first half and then the second we made hay and then we would revert to playing a game that suited Toulouse. If we took the plaudits last season for being able to change our play to combat the opposition from game to game then yesterday was a good wake up call because we looked unwilling to play a game that could have killed Toulouse off consistently, at 27-21 we should have put them to bed, we are patronizing Toulouse to say they are back, they are not back they were rubbish against Bath last week and this week they beat a Leinster team at home by 1 point who looked miles off the team we have become accustomed to see. Sometimes that happens for whatever reason.

We would be remiss to say it was all because Toulouse were so good, they were not so good we kicked to their back three badly consistently and we did not look after our own possession, lets own our failings.

So the positives, we played the way we played and still only lost by 1 point and we should have had the nous to win it, most other teams would have lost by 20-30. I have massive expectations of this team because they deliver so often and they are a privilege to watch. Blips happen. Onwards and upwards.

Couldn't agree more - we were sub par. Our management of our own possession was poor - what was Rhys thinking with the chip ahead - and JS with 3 mins to go going downfield - we never touched the ball again.....still we know we support a quality / smart bunch of guys who will learn from this. File it away in the bad office day folder.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

The frustrating thing for me was that the mistakes that cost us were avoidable. You'll get games where you drop balls or miss tackles, but if the message had come down to just be a bit more pragmatic then we'd have been fine. Running the ball out of our 22 when we had the lead springs to mind, we just didn't put the pressure back on Toulouse enough. Agree that Toulouse were very good btw, but that didn't surprise me.

So I think the big lesson to learn is that we do have to adapt our game a bit when we play a really good side. If we end up playing someone like Saracens in a knockout game and Lowe boots the ball out from the kick off then the lesson will have been learned IMO. I know that backing ourselves is a big part of what makes us so good, but you still have to read the room so to speak.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

Q: "How are your chances of a home quarter and semi endangered? Did you really expect us to win every single game in the group stages this year?

We have Bath away and home, Toulouse at home and Wasps away. Should win at least 3 if not 4 of thee games."

A: We can top our group, but if the winners in the other four groups have after six matches more points than us, we play away in the quarters. Not getting a win in Toulouse has increased the possibility such a scenario coming about.

Similarly if we don't finish one of the two teams with the most amount of points in the groups stages, we don't get a home semifinal. Unless of course we play an away quarter final and win that.

Toulouse, Racing, Saracens, and Newcastle are the only teams who've won both matches so far. Very hard to see Toulouse and Newcastle winning all six, and we were the only team to get a BP win last weekend. We're not playing catch up.

[curates_egg]

In games like that you look for leadership from senior players and in that regard have to say Sexton was sadly lacking in leadership and game management that is supposed to be his strength - less said about the up and under 2 minutes from time the better but a bizarre decision to boot possession away like that.

Totally agree. Some of his decision-making yesterday was very poor. I also didn't like how he communicated with Barnes.
Hugonaut mentioned on Tweeter that it was exactly the type of game where you don't want the guy calling the shots to also be your outhalf.

[olaf the fat]

So close - So far.

16 turn overs (16!), lots of missed tackles, 14 - 0 head start - but most importantly 1 bonus point and -1 score differential on the the table.

Toulouse away, is never an easy task. You'd have hoped at the time of the draw for a win and or lbp from either Bath & Wasps away and win all the home games. This result does give a great dose of reality, starting with keeping the ball!, versus Munster we gave them lots of possession and Leo pointed out that if you give better teams so much ball they will beat you. ( at the time I focused on the better teams than Munster bit, not the getting beaten bit!)

Toulouse have to come here yet, they played brilliantly yesterday but still needed bad off load, an intercept and us being a bit off colour to get a 1 point home win.

All that being said, it was a cracking game of rugby.

[backrower8]

I think we have a tendency to get carried away by pretty much everything. After Wasps we weren't the '87 All Blacks, after Toulouse we aren't '87 Ireland - reality is somewhere in between. We're one of the three or four best teams in Europe, but at this level the difference between those three or four teams and the next three or four is bugger all. A 1 or 2% dip in performance levels can be the difference between winning and losing. Toulouse were excellent, the espoirs they brought off the bench had a real impact and we were maybe that 1 or 2% off our best. So we lost.

That's a bit glib. It is not the end of the world but it is a very bad slip up that should have been beneath a vastly experienced Champion team that makes up most of Ireland's Grand Slam squad, playing a team with 6 starters aged 23 or under and a couple younger still off the bench.

I agree that being off a few percent turns games between near equal teams - but this was not such a match-up. We are the double Champions, with 14 internationals starting and gazillions of forward caps on the bench captained by one of the world's leading players and game managers and we were playing a team backboned by novice kids, that was shorn of 2 first team forwards, one of whom is world-class.

I am not saying we should have won handy, respect to Toulouse on the day. But we should have shown our pedigree and managed it better to win regardless of an intercept 7 pointer in the 69th minute.

6 of their starting team and 4 of their pack was 23 or under, 3 in the front 5. Their loose head against the leading tight head in the world, was 22. His substitute just 18.

At the time I was surprised to see Tadhg go off at 55 minutes. He is so influential a figure and had a lot more energy to give.

Watching it, I felt Fardy should have been on sooner, not at 65 minutes. It was crying out for his nous and new energy. He might also have been better able to influence Johnny's thinking on game management.

Seanie didn't add enough. He doesn't link like VDF or Leavy do. He looks muscle-bound at a time when other forwards are shedding kilos.

Tomane is not worthy from what we have seen. And we have seen enough for now. Any of DK, Ferg or ROL should be picked ahead of him.

Luke had a poor one by his standards, but Johnny was best positioned to ensure we ground out the win.

They will all learn from it, but you'd have thought a squad of this experience and form shouldn't have to learn like that. England 2003 & the ABs are the standard as regards the consistency and mental strength we need to build into this squad if it is to achieve its potential and be a truly great squad.

[curates_egg]

Seanie didn't add enough. He doesn't link like VDF or Leavy do. He looks muscle-bound at a time when other forwards are shedding kilos.

Worse than not adding enough, he was poor: 3 missed tackles including one that gifted them their second try. Spilled balls. Ineffective carries. I don't see Jordi delivering a performance like that.

Tomane is not worthy from what we have seen. And we have seen enough for now. Any of DK, Ferg or ROL should be picked ahead of him.

I agree Tomane was poor, but we need to remember that he was hired to play 12, and that is all he has done for us (and mostly at Montpellier). It was a big ask for him. Dave and McFadden were injured. Has ROL played much on the right wing? I thought he played on the left, and he hasn't played much on the wing at all since the 2016/17 season.

[backrower8]

I agree Tomane was poor, but we need to remember that he was hired to play 12, and that is all he has done for us (and mostly at Montpellier). It was a big ask for him. Dave and McFadden were injured. Has ROL played much on the right wing? I thought he played on the left, and he hasn't played much on the wing at all since the 2016/17 season.

As for Tomane, he has been touted as an international standard player who can play either. I imagine he is being remunerated accordingly, which is probbaly why Leinster want to validate their expenditure - notwithstanding the injuries to Daly, Ferg and DK.

I think as a second centre ROL is used to running in space on either side of the field and has enough football about him to play on either wing. Also, what has Adam Byrne done so wrong since being capped and getting injured a year ago?

Tomane has been poor in any position he has played in. Although ironically, I thought yesterday was his best performance (e.g. he got a block down and nearly one other) but it was still sub-standard.

I think it cannot be good for squad morale to see a guy parachuted in and fail so badly so far and yet still hoover up appearances. Granted, we need him bedded in as a failsafe if Robbie gets injured/is away with Ireland.

[Dave Cahill]

but we need to remember that he was hired to play 12, and that is all he has done for us (and mostly at Montpellier).

Was he? I would doubt that very much. Last season nearly half his games came on the wing, all his super rugby was played on the wing, and all his caps were on the wing (and quite meaningless I know, his Leinster profile lists his position as Wing). I would suggest he was hired as a utility three quarters.

[Dundalk 1]

In games like that you look for leadership from senior players and in that regard have to say Sexton was sadly lacking in leadership and game management that is supposed to be his strength - less said about the up and under 2 minutes from time the better but a bizarre decision to boot possession away like that.

We had just really struggled to get out of our 22 and looked as if we were going nowhere
Sexton moved the ball up the field presumably hoping for a breakdown penalty but more importantly moving us away from an area that we could have given away a stupid turnover and potentially lost a valuable bonus point
By the way they kept sealing off and Barnes ignored it but away from home you don’t get the 50/50s

4 1 against our main opponents is fine
It’s very seldom any team wins 6 out of 6
We were just spoiled last year

We probably should have won the game but if we beat Toulouse 4 0 in January we will probably win the group barring the English teams showing a huge improvement
Whether it’s enough for a Top 2 seed depends on other results but only Saracens look capable of 6 from 6
So we should still be optimistic

[OTT]

Jordan Larmour is a brilliant player he did not play great yesterday by his standards, it happens. James Lowe mixed the good with bad, always dangerous with the ball, competed well at kicks except for the very first one but he himself put in a fair few aimless kicks which they ran back with interest. Joe Tomane is the new guy in that back three he looked a bit hesitant but he certainly made fewer mistakes then the Leinster fan favourites along side him.


Edit: And I am not aiming to have a go at Lowe or Larmour I just hate what is becoming the pre written narrative where we blame Tomane on anything and everything that goes wrong.

[OTT]

In games like that you look for leadership from senior players and in that regard have to say Sexton was sadly lacking in leadership and game management that is supposed to be his strength - less said about the up and under 2 minutes from time the better but a bizarre decision to boot possession away like that.

We had just really struggled to get out of our 22 and looked as if we were going nowhere
Sexton moved the ball up the field presumably hoping for a breakdown penalty but more importantly moving us away from an area that we could have given away a stupid turnover and potentially lost a valuable bonus point
By the way they kept sealing off and Barnes ignored it but away from home you don’t get the 50/50s

I did not mind Barnes yesterday (I seem to be in a party of 1 with that ) but I did think that we should have got a penalty in those final phases, not for sealing off but at one stage a Toulouse player flys off his feet through the right side of the ruck and takes out a Leinster player (Ryan maybe?) off the ball. The commentators never mentioned it, they should have it was pretty clear and obvious and I thought it was a stone wall penalty.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

If that's the one I'm thinking of then I thought Ryan was offside in the first place so wasn't bothered that we didn't get it.

[TrapperChamonix]

I agree Tomane was poor, but we need to remember that he was hired to play 12, and that is all he has done for us (and mostly at Montpellier). It was a big ask for him. Dave and McFadden were injured. Has ROL played much on the right wing? I thought he played on the left, and he hasn't played much on the wing at all since the 2016/17 season.

As for Tomane, he has been touted as an international standard player who can play either. I imagine he is being remunerated accordingly, which is probbaly why Leinster want to validate their expenditure - notwithstanding the injuries to Daly, Ferg and DK.

I think as a second centre ROL is used to running in space on either side of the field and has enough football about him to play on either wing. Also, what has Adam Byrne done so wrong since being capped and getting injured a year ago?

Tomane has been poor in any position he has played in. Although ironically, I thought yesterday was his best performance (e.g. he got a block down and nearly one other) but it was still sub-standard.

I think it cannot be good for squad morale to see a guy parachuted in and fail so badly so far and yet still hoover up appearances. Granted, we need him bedded in as a failsafe if Robbie gets injured/is away with Ireland.

Agree 100% with this.

[desperado]

Q: "How are your chances of a home quarter and semi endangered? Did you really expect us to win every single game in the group stages this year?

We have Bath away and home, Toulouse at home and Wasps away. Should win at least 3 if not 4 of thee games."

A: We can top our group, but if the winners in the other four groups have after six matches more points than us, we play away in the quarters. Not getting a win in Toulouse has increased the possibility such a scenario coming about.

Similarly if we don't finish one of the two teams with the most amount of points in the groups stages, we don't get a home semifinal. Unless of course we play an away quarter final and win that.

Even if you're first, and second in points scored - you're not guaranteed a home semi.

[leinsterforever]

Toulouse were good. They're really adept at getting defenders to bite in and then getting the ball away, which creates space for the next guy. Classically French, I suppose. Their understanding of how to keep defenders chasing shadows with support lines, angles, dummies, footwork and holding the ball in two hands is just better than Leinster's. Contrast how they finished the intercept with how Leinster weren't able to keep the play going on Henshaw and Lowe's big line breaks against Wasps. Leinster so nearly had it though. It was balanced on a knife-edge at 27-21.

The game was crying out for JGP to be introduced around the 60 minute mark. I'm generally of the opinion that you can get away with some poor passes from McGrath at this level. Maybe not at Test level, but I think he's generally fine at provincial level. But yesterday was one of those days when it would have been good to be able to replace him with JGP.

I would like to see a real effort made against Treviso and the Kings to develop alternatives to Lowe and Fardy so picking JGP in the 23 at least becomes more of a viable option for Lancaster.

The locks for these games should be 4. Molony, 5. Fardy; 19. Kearney, so hopefully Molony and Kearney can press their claims further. Their performances so far this season have been relatively encouraging.

I keep coming back to it, but O'Loughlin on the left wing is something I think would work really well. His defensive iffiness means you wouldn't be losing a whole lot if he's not at 13. His reads are generally okay, but he kind of gets flat-footed and then if the attacker shifts his weight he can slip off the tackle. I'd like to see ROL at 11, and Jimmy O'Brien at 13 in these two upcoming games. That way, you're developing an alternative to Lowe so JGP getting selected becomes more of an option as necessary

Tomane's just a bit meh overall. Like, is he any better than Tom Daly at 12, or Adam Byrne or even Keenan on the wing? My take on it is that he's getting in the way of other players coming through more than anything.

[Raydollard]

We are not in a good position right now and the future this season has now become uncertain. We have lost our invincibility. Remember we were hot favourites to go to Toulouse and win. What a status we had compared to a short few years ago when we would never be expected to beat a team like Toulouse on their ground.We might indeed win but that would not be expected. But having been pretty substandard around the pitch on Saturday we did overtake Toulouse rather comprehensively and should have shut them out for the rest of the game. There was a failure of management on and off the field. Let’s hope we can repair matters next time. We have the players.

[curates_egg]

but we need to remember that he was hired to play 12, and that is all he has done for us (and mostly at Montpellier).

Was he? I would doubt that very much. Last season nearly half his games came on the wing, all his super rugby was played on the wing, and all his caps were on the wing (and quite meaningless I know, his Leinster profile lists his position as Wing). I would suggest he was hired as a utility three quarters.

I was trying to be charitable to the guy, having been uncharitable previously.
The fact is he hadn't been on the wing for us, and the only fit player who has played on the right wing is Byrne, who seems to be totally out of favour.
Larmour also had a very mixed game. So did pretty much everyone.