Toulouse vs Leinster

[backrower8]

Larmour also had a very mixed game. So did pretty much everyone.

I think James Ryan had a very good game. Scored a try; took lineouts; was the 2nd highest carrier between the two teams (16 to Lowe's 18, SOB carried 12 times); he made 10 out of 12 tackles attempted (only Conan did better for Leinster with 10/10). He gave away one of our 7 penalties.

[backrower8]

Given we have at least 3, possibly 4, of the Irish starting front 5 - it was disappointing that we did not get more change out of the Toulouse scrum.

Tadhg was up against a 22 year old. Porter then faced an 18 year old who is in his first year with the club. Both were backed-up by the lightweight Verhaegue.

There was one collapse late in the second half, I thought their loose-head went down with the ball in their second row...but nothing from Wayne!

[Dundalk 1]

Given we have at least 3, possibly 4, of the Irish starting front 5 - it was disappointing that we did not get more change out of the Toulouse scrum.

Tadhg was up against a 22 year old. Porter then faced an 18 year old who is in his first year with the club. Both were backed-up by the lightweight Verhaegue.

There was one collapse late in the second half, I thought their loose-head went down with the ball in their second row...but nothing from Wayne!

The pitch was so soft and cut up that Barnes could always blame it for any issues thus making him hesitant about giving scrum penalties

[Logorrhea]

Furlong and Porter have never been particularly destructive scrummagers.

[Ruckedtobits]

BTW, fascinating to see so many long-time and esteemed members of this forum return to posting in the circumstance of our first European defeat in 19 months.

Welcome back to your keyboards. Your insightfull thoughts have been missed!

[Peg Leg]

BTW, fascinating to see so many long-time and esteemed members of this forum return to posting in the circumstance of our first European defeat in 19 months.

Welcome back to your keyboards. Your insightfull thoughts have been missed!

I agree, the loss to Toulouse is Ceemac's fault

[harblstuff]

Given we have at least 3, possibly 4, of the Irish starting front 5 - it was disappointing that we did not get more change out of the Toulouse scrum.

Tadhg was up against a 22 year old. Porter then faced an 18 year old who is in his first year with the club. Both were backed-up by the lightweight Verhaegue.

There was one collapse late in the second half, I thought their loose-head went down with the ball in their second row...but nothing from Wayne!

Pitch was shite

[Dave Cahill]

World Rugby don't want teams milking scrums for penalties, so unless you are clearly dominant or the opposition are clearly illegal and on a firm pitch, you ain't gettin' nathin'. If the ball is in the second row, then the ref will want it played - thats why they changed the law this year to allow the eighthman pick the ball out of the second row.

Basically World Rugby want the scrum reffed in such a way as for the scrum to be in and out, with no messing around. You had a situation last year, with the renewed focus on the put in, where scrums were taking longer as the ball was put in, but neither hooker wanted to lift their foot to hook the ball, so the scrum was heaving but the ball was just sitting in the middle of the tunnel. There was one game I watched - it may have been in the 6N - where the ball sat for a full 45 seconds before being hooked. Thats why they changed the scrum half positioning at put in to allow his shoulder to be in line with the centre of the scrum, instead of his body being on that line.

[backrower8]

Furlong and Porter have never been particularly destructive scrummagers.

Porter is still a very recent convert to tight head, so we got from him all we might hope for and needed, a solid platform - albeit against an 18 year old.

As the "world's leading tight head" (but probbaly not the leading tight head scrummager....answers on a postcard please), Tadhg's scrummaging is a conundrum. Most of the time he is solid, but every now and then he is done over and he can on occasion lead the demolition of an opposing scrum. I guess I would like to see less of the former and more of the latter in keeping with his status and ability.

[hugonaut]

Given we have at least 3, possibly 4, of the Irish starting front 5 - it was disappointing that we did not get more change out of the Toulouse scrum.

Tadhg was up against a 22 year old. Porter then faced an 18 year old who is in his first year with the club. Both were backed-up by the lightweight Verhaegue.

There was one collapse late in the second half, I thought their loose-head went down with the ball in their second row...but nothing from Wayne!

The pitch was so soft and cut up that Barnes could always blame it for any issues thus making him hesitant about giving scrum penalties

I think you're correct, D1. Between DC's answer and that one, it's a bit of a stretch to look much farther.

There was one in the second half where the Toulouse loosehead seemed to collapse after the strike , but overall I thought the standard of scrummaging was pretty even and quite good.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

I watched the game back last night and was wrong about James Ryan missing loads of tackles, he missed two but there was one by Healy that I thought was Ryan when watching live.

Tomane did more good things than I remembered too.

Also hugely impressed again with the aggression and workrate from Ringrose. He really does give absolutely everything to make an impact in defence. Ryan had a brilliant double tackle early on when Lowe rushed up in their 22 as well, incredible athleticism from someone so big.

[Hippo]

I watched the game back last night and was wrong about James Ryan missing loads of tackles, he missed two but there was one by Healy that I thought was Ryan when watching live.

Tomane did more good things than I remembered too.

Also hugely impressed again with the aggression and workrate from Ringrose. He really does give absolutely everything to make an impact in defence. Ryan had a brilliant double tackle early on when Lowe rushed up in their 22 as well, incredible athleticism from someone so big.

I thought Ryan was excellent again, he really is ridiculously good. Work rate, skill, aggression, reading of the game, he has the full armoury.

[FourMasters]

I really enjoyed that match. My attention wandered through the Wasps rout, but this was a proper game.
Leinster will be the better for it. The poster that said that the champions shouldn't be learning any more? That doesn't hold for any sport. The other quality sides study the top opposition and adapt their game, and Leinster have to keep learning.
What was most noticeable for me for improvement was the breakdown, in that Toulouse had us for turnovers.
For our last kick-out, Tomane caught the ball - great skill. I was groaning too when Sexton kicked on our ball, but he did the same in the France v Ire match and Earls took the ball in a high risk play that regained some momentum. It seems to be a more common go-to play in recent years (I'm stuck now for a while with Sky Sports so am seeing a lot of rugby from our southern hemisphere brethren) - I'm speculating that coaches have decided that statistically it has more gain than the 50 phase approach for tiring players.

[neiliog93]

It is very, very difficult for a tighthead to be a 'destructive' scrummager. If they can consistently hold their own pushing against two people at the highest level (i.e the opposition loosehead and hooker), they're gold dust. 'Destructive' scrummagers are usually looseheads - Sheridan, Roncero, Perugini, Milloud, Domingo, etc.

[El Diablo]

Has our lineout got worse this year? The last lineout loss (to the back through Toner's hands) was crucial as Toulouse owned the ball for the 2 or 3 minutes that were left. At first I assumed it was an over-throw but looking back Toner has no front lifter and does remarkably well to even get his finger tips to it. He was lucky not to get injured as he came crashing down. I could be wrong but it looks like Jack McGrath is the culprit as he goes to lift Fardy at the front. It just looks like he is in the wrong place. If he got his call wrong at such an important point in the game, he will be in hot water with management. Cronin is getting a bit of stick this year but perhaps it is not all his fault and there isnt the same level of organisation as last year.

[riocard911]

A very balanced post-match assessment from Lancaster courtesy of the42:

“I think the key things we talked about were the first 20 and the last 20, You know, when you go to France, and I think Clermont told us this in the semi-final [two years ago], when you go to those high intense French atmospheres, you need to start well and you need to take the energy out of the crowd and I think we did the opposite. We gave them three points, six points.

“They played well, no doubt they were one of the best teams we played against in terms of the uniqueness of how they played, they did the homework and key ball players played very well. But it was disappointing to give them that 14-point start, we then fight hard to get to 27-21 with 60 minutes gone, to then throw an intercept and one or two what I would call mental errors — a missed lineout, this that and the other.”

On the match-turning and defining moment, when Luke McGrath’s intended pass for Jack Conan was read and intercepted by Louis Madaule, before Maxime Médard finished off a clinical counter-attack from the Top 14 side, Lancaster said: “There’s a bit of luck, certainly. Whether they’ve seen us do it on previous occasions, I mean you don’t run the same plays all the time. I just think you’ve got to give them and their coaches credit.

“They prepared their team well, they played a good brand and it was a great game of rugby. Small margins could have gone our way and we would have been happy, but we’re not happy, which is probably not a bad thing for us.”

The hope is that defeat, particularly in the circumstances, will produce a reaction from Leinster. Not just this weekend when they travel to Italy, but moving forward this season.

“It has taught us a good lesson,” the senior coach continued.

“I mean the difference between this game and the Clermont game is that the Clermont game was a semi-final, we never got a second chance, whereas in this scenario we can take a lot from that and understand that if you look at Europe last year, it was pretty unique that any team won six and lost none.

“In fact, I think most teams who qualified won four and lost two — Clermont, Munster. Saracens won three, drew one and lost two and still qualified. So there’s still 20 points to play for and we’re on six, but we have to learn the lesson because we definitely, with the atmosphere and intensity of the crowd, it definitely effected some of our decision-making under pressure and we need to be better at that.”

Lancaster also believes the fact several members of the Leinster side — notably James Ryan and Jordan Larmour — had not experienced that partisan French atmosphere before could have contributed to the visitors becoming uncomfortable in chaos.

"The reality was the first 20 minutes and the last 20 minutes weren’t good enough to win against a team that were playing very very well. And as experienced a team as we have, there’s also a lot of players who haven’t been in that environment before. So you might look at the Leinster team and go ‘Oh jeez, they’ve all been in it’, but James Ryan, other than maybe that Ireland-France game, Jordan Larmour probably never been in that sort of environment. It’s just different.

“The Clermont semi-final reminded me of when England played France in France, my second or third year in charge, I think it was 16-3 to France, and we got back to winning with a Luther Burrell try and then [Gael] Fickou scored on the last play and it reminded me of the same thing. So it’s just different. I think we needed to have been… I could have prepared them better for that.”

[EarthGorilla]

Has our lineout got worse this year? The last lineout loss (to the back through Toner's hands) was crucial as Toulouse owned the ball for the 2 or 3 minutes that were left. At first I assumed it was an over-throw but looking back Toner has no front lifter and does remarkably well to even get his finger tips to it. He was lucky not to get injured as he came crashing down. I could be wrong but it looks like Jack McGrath is the culprit as he goes to lift Fardy at the front. It just looks like he is in the wrong place. If he got his call wrong at such an important point in the game, he will be in hot water with management. Cronin is getting a bit of stick this year but perhaps it is not all his fault and there isnt the same level of organisation as last year.

Our lineout has been very poor for a few seasons. Fardy made a big difference to it last season but now with Toner Ryan and Ruddock starting over him he is slightly less influential. So without having any stats, I wouldn't be surprised if it was worse.

[hugonaut]

Has our lineout got worse this year? The last lineout loss (to the back through Toner's hands) was crucial as Toulouse owned the ball for the 2 or 3 minutes that were left. At first I assumed it was an over-throw but looking back Toner has no front lifter and does remarkably well to even get his finger tips to it. He was lucky not to get injured as he came crashing down. I could be wrong but it looks like Jack McGrath is the culprit as he goes to lift Fardy at the front. It just looks like he is in the wrong place. If he got his call wrong at such an important point in the game, he will be in hot water with management. Cronin is getting a bit of stick this year but perhaps it is not all his fault and there isnt the same level of organisation as last year.

Our lineout has been very poor for a few seasons. Fardy made a big difference to it last season but now with Toner Ryan and Ruddock starting over him he is slightly less influential. So without having any stats, I wouldn't be surprised if it was worse.

I think there's certainly room for improvement, but I disagree that it has been very poor.

We're operating at almost 87% [86.75] success rate from 116 throws on our ball thus far this season; we thus average 14.5 lineouts/game, and 12.5 lineout wins on our own ball. A 90% success rate would equate to us winning half a lineout extra per game [theoretically].

If you take out the outliers [our best performance against Connacht, going 18/18 for 100%, and our worst performance against the Dragons, going 8/12 for 66%] then we're at 88% success rate. It's not really accurate to describe our 100% return as an outlier – as we have achieved it twice, it's not abnormal – but it's still the highest result.

12/14 [85%] @ Toulouse 8/8 [100%]
14/19 [73%] vs Wasps 9/12 [75%]
11/11 [100%] vs Munster 13/14 [92%]
18/18 [100%] @ Connacht 7/8 [87%]
14/15 [93%] vs Edinburgh 8/8 [100%]
8/12 [66%] vs Dragons 12/13 [92%]
12/13 [92%] @ Scarlets 13/13 [100%]
12/14 [85%] @ Cardiff 8/11 [72%]

[Experimental]

I thought again, James Lowe was by far the best player on the pitch, and really dragged leinster to parity in that first half. Ringrose made some crucial tackles and cleanups, who ever said he had a bad game is talking absolute rubbish, he saved us multiple times and the score may have been way worse if he wasnt there. Henshaw had a poor game, and must be a bit worried about his Ireland starting spot. I thought James Ryan had a great game, and under the circumstances Larmour aswell. The back row were not lacking in endeavour, but were poor in execution. Furlong and Healy played well, with the hookers having a mixed game. Ive been on the fence about the McGrath vs JGP debate for the best part of a year, but Im gonna come off it now and say that JGP is the better player imo. McGrath really worries me with his inconsistency, He has a sh!t game, then a good game, then a middling game, then a sh!t game, etc etc. We cannot rely on this. There are some tough juggling decisions for the management. To echo other posters on the forum, I do not know why Tomani is there, really, its mind boggling we have about 6 better wingers than him, and I think the management needs to not worry at this stage about the money spent and start playing other wingers there. He might be showing it in training, but sadly lacking on the field, id have O'Loughlin in in a heartbeat ahead of him. I thought Sextons leadership was poor, and his bickering at the ref is going to cost us in a bigger game, If hes gonna be captain he needs to know the fine lines between questioning the ref hard and pissing the ref off and conceding 10 meters. I was honestly surprised the barnes didnt have more words with him. Our rush defence was badly caught out a few times with kick thrus, which all seemed to come off, this tactic could have gone badly wrong for toulouse if some of those didnt go to hand, or we were more prepared for them, other teams are going to try and target us there so we need to be better at covering this. Also, I put the lack of Ringrose, Larmour momentum in attack down to our attacking structure. We have not yet learned to use weapons like ringrose and larmour effectively and this is the responsibility of Dr. Phil. Bad day at the office, but at least we got out with a scare and bonus point. Plenty to work on...

[Gearzbox2]

Has our lineout got worse this year? The last lineout loss (to the back through Toner's hands) was crucial as Toulouse owned the ball for the 2 or 3 minutes that were left. At first I assumed it was an over-throw but looking back Toner has no front lifter and does remarkably well to even get his finger tips to it. He was lucky not to get injured as he came crashing down. I could be wrong but it looks like Jack McGrath is the culprit as he goes to lift Fardy at the front. It just looks like he is in the wrong place. If he got his call wrong at such an important point in the game, he will be in hot water with management. Cronin is getting a bit of stick this year but perhaps it is not all his fault and there isnt the same level of organisation as last year.

Our lineout stats as far as I know are close to if not 90% which is pretty good
That last lineout that we lost looked like jack Mc just messed it up leading to a crucial turnover
IMO he’s been way below par this year and looks unfit but that’s a side topic
Our line out if anything looks a bit sloppy( poor lifts, poor jumping, poor communication, sloppy throw)compared to last year which I’m sure can be addressed
I think cronin does take a lot of unwarranted slack here most of the time even though there are so many working parts to a lineout, granted he’d an off day against wasps but can’t remember any others of recent time and I don’t think he’s throwing any worse than the Irish captain at the minute and I’d playing far better stuff around the park