The pitch

[CM]

The year before last Drico didn't play at home in the Brook, and one of the reasons was that the pitch was dangerous.

My impression from that year was simply that he wasn't available for any home games in Donnybrook. He wasn't able to play for us till the Ospreys game in November after the WC, then the HEC was on in Lansdowne and then quite a few CL games were moved because of the pitch.

Hardly any of our internationals played in the Brook that year.

Anyway, it's sad to hear there are actual holes in the pitch. I can accept that so many matches will strip a lot of grass but I was under the impression that the new surface would still be smooth and safe underfoot when this happened. Lansdowne did go through a period before the pitch settled so hopefully this is the case but if not then something needs to be decided. If the company who laid the pitch guaranteed it wouldn't cut up like it has then surely we have a case against them?

[Flash Gordon]

Yeah, but the crowd pay 3Euro in as opposed to 15! You'd have to get 20000 at every schools game to have the same impact. Plus:
1. TV rights
2. 600-700K income for sponsorship/signage
3. over 2million in shirts alone, never mind the rest of the merchandise
4. 4million grant from the IRFU for supply the players
5. Prize money
6. Gate receipts - one bumper quarter or semi-final crowd and you get 2million.

The commercial possibilities for schools rugby are totally miniscule compared to the earning power of the provinces. We paid half a million for that pitch - I reckon you'd need 30 schools games revenue (BEFORE tax) to break even on that investment. Nerver mind the other costs associated with it.

Ah but Flash - the schools cup product is essentially free - i.e. We don't have to pay the players, coaches, backup staff, gym fees, away travel expenses etc. etc.. Add to the fact that the senior cup has a decent sponsor, which the CL doesn't currently have, and the fact that Setanta also televise the schools cup games in Donnybrook - then your argument isn't as watertight as you would have us believe.

Ah come on Duff....I'd say you could get the schools sponsorship for 10 or 20 grand......BOSI probably pay close to half a million, then you have official drink, official beer, official chocolate bar etc. Probably clocks up around 700K. Then there's TV money, VASTLY superior gate receipts (one game at the RDS equates to approximately the entire gate receipts of the schools competition), TV money and Leinster's cut of team Ireland (for which they supply players) - 30.000 Leinster shirts ALONE have been sold this year - never mind the other merchandise - that's 2million sales alone!
Leinster rugby's income runs into the millions - schools rugby isn't close I'm afraid -
by the way, its not free, the IRFU invests several hundred grand into the game at schoolboy level, and they've destroyed a pitch that cost us 500K.....

Certainly not arguing against investment in schools rugby I think its totally right....there are definitely arguments for schools rugby - I don't think economincs are one of them to be honest.

I just don't think they should be playing at Donnybrook......or at the very least, not at the frequency currently.

[Flash Gordon]

The year before last Drico didn't play at home in the Brook, and one of the reasons was that the pitch was dangerous.

My impression from that year was simply that he wasn't available for any home games in Donnybrook. He wasn't able to play for us till the Ospreys game in November after the WC, then the HEC was on in Lansdowne and then quite a few CL games were moved because of the pitch.

Hardly any of our internationals played in the Brook that year.

Anyway, it's sad to hear there are actual holes in the pitch. I can accept that so many matches will strip a lot of grass but I was under the impression that the new surface would still be smooth and safe underfoot when this happened. Lansdowne did go through a period before the pitch settled so hopefully this is the case but if not then something needs to be decided. If the company who laid the pitch guaranteed it wouldn't cut up like it has then surely we have a case against them?

Gary Ella told me that he was protecting players from playing on the surface CM.

Totally agree that we should go back to the guys who sold us the pitch. Its a bloody mess!

[bluesky]

I believe it was the start of D'arces hamstring injury ...the hard dustbowl...

[Flash Gordon]

I believe it was the start of D'arces hamstring injury ...the hard dustbowl...

I know, I was treated for severe sand inhillation by the Bective barman. It took 8 pints of Guinnes before i recovered my composure.....

[CM]

Gary Ella told me that he was protecting players from playing on the surface CM.

Fair enough. That would explain the late withdrawal of some players, including BOD, from the Ulster game in January. The official reasons at the time were injuries, as they were for all other times that BOD wasn't able to play at Donnybrook, so that's why I got the impression he wasn't available for any Donnybrook games.

[harryp]

As for the schools as a feeder. Well, yes they do that, but we're the most unsuccessful of the original 5 nations in championship wins and only ever won one grand slam. So the system's results aren't a resounding success.

What actually needs to happen is that you need to get the people of school age CHOOSING to play rugby at local clubs and the like - then they will not be put under too much pressure to play, then they will continue to play as it's their choice to play.

What Flash says about being the most unsuccessful country in the 5/6 nations is what makes the status quo so untennable.

They actually changed the rules about that this year. Now a SCT player once they're out of the Cup can return to playing club rugby. Unfortunately most of the season is over at that stage.

Begs the further question though, once you stop playing SCT or U18's, where can someone play rugby to a reasonable level without a Development Contract.

[Flash Gordon]

As for the schools as a feeder. Well, yes they do that, but we're the most unsuccessful of the original 5 nations in championship wins and only ever won one grand slam. So the system's results aren't a resounding success.

What actually needs to happen is that you need to get the people of school age CHOOSING to play rugby at local clubs and the like - then they will not be put under too much pressure to play, then they will continue to play as it's their choice to play.

What Flash says about being the most unsuccessful country in the 5/6 nations is what makes the status quo so untennable.

They actually changed the rules about that this year. Now a SCT player once they're out of the Cup can return to playing club rugby. Unfortunately most of the season is over at that stage.

Begs the further question though, once you stop playing SCT or U18's, where can someone play rugby to a reasonable level without a Development Contract.

Its a good question Harry. We only retain about 20% of schoolboy players. We need to understand why that happens. Personally, I didn't play immediately post SCT because I was just sick and tired of having constantly trained and played for years.

There was an interesting piece in one of the Sunday papers recently with a "where are they now" on Declan Kidney's Irish underage world cup winning team. I think only 2 or 3 players were still involved at any significant level.....most either lost interest or suffered serious injury....

[harryp]

Injuries happen and some people just walk away from the game. I think too many players are lost at that level because there is no structure. You can go to a Club, but there is no gaurantee of getting a game. There is practically no U19's/ U20's or U21's structure for Clubs.

More often than not players I think end up in 2nds and 3rds sides, playing bog standard rugby for a while and give up through frustration.

[Uncle Mort]

Injuries happen and some people just walk away from the game. I think too many players are lost at that level because there is no structure. You can go to a Club, but there is no gaurantee of getting a game. There is practically no U19's/ U20's or U21's structure for Clubs.

More often than not players I think end up in 2nds and 3rds sides, playing bog standard rugby for a while and give up through frustration.

We only retain about 20% of schoolboy players. We need to understand why that happens. Personally, I didn't play immediately post SCT because I was just sick and tired of having constantly trained and played for years...

Which are exactly the points - firstly people are pressurised into playing at too high an intensity at too early an age - there is little to no choice in their playing the game - they are part of the tradition and secondly there is little to no club structure for the younger players to play. What is required is much more emphasis on age group club rugby so those that choose to play rugby have meaningful matches to play. People who chose the game are far more likely to be committed to continuing.

[Flash Gordon]

Psychologically, the structure of the competition isn't great to be honest. as a schoolboy you spend years building up to the SCT - you train hard, expectations are on your shoulders, you're pressured and you compromise on your academic eduction......then it can all fall down in 80 minutes. Total failure. That's a tough blow for a 17 year old.....

That why I'd like to see the tournament become a league, more meaningful games, more opportunity to play and less pressure on the guys.

[thecoolfreak]

But then you probably wouldn't have the whole school coming out to watch, etc. That is what is so special about the cup

[Flash Gordon]

But then you probably wouldn't have the whole school coming out to watch, etc. That is what is so special about the cup

Maybe not. But its better for the development of the players and for the long term future of Irish rugby.

[harryp]

But then you probably wouldn't have the whole school coming out to watch, etc. That is what is so special about the cup

I don't see the problem being with the Cup, I think its after the Cup.

League wouldn't work. Too much pressure on LC etc. Wouldn't have the same committment.

[thecoolfreak]

I don't think it that is necessarily the case. I think the problem is with the clubs because once you finish with schools rugby most of the clubs are just on the look out for the elite players. This means that a lot of pretty good players end up quitting rugby because they are wasting away on some chite J3 team

[Uncle Mort]

This means that a lot of pretty good players end up quitting rugby because they are wasting away on some chite J3 team

This again is the kind of attitude that does rugby a disservice. The whole structure has to be a pyramid with each lower level being greater than that above it. Playing J3 should not be sniffed at - it's what makes the game what it is. Without the greater number of people playing at the lower levels you can not get sufficient numbers of good quality at the high levels. This again is a problem with the schools set up - it tries to counter this simple logic by producing elite players without having anything below on which to build. The Schools cup is the man who builds his house on the sand - ok it's a mighty impressive edifice and is admired but without foundations it can not last - which is why so many players stop playing. We are lacking an international SH and OH - and yet we persist with a system that does not produce enough players playing the game. We need to get young people playing the game at clubs in their hundreds, in a safe enviroment where they learn the game is fun. In this way they may not turn to other sports on offer. They may not make the grade in time but it takes dozens playing at the lower level to produce on international. The schools cup gives too much to players who are too young - playing on TV, the top grounds in front of thousands. This is not real life and when they find this out for themselves they stop and we the rugby supporting public are the losers.

[thecoolfreak]

What I am trying to get across is that it should be something similar to the schools cups in the gaa. All those players play with their clubs as well as their scholls and that should be the way in rugby. This means that when they finish school they have their club with whom they can play.

Anyway the main problem with the system is that most players after they finish school get to carried away with college life and drinking and jsut couldn't be bothered playing anymore

[Uncle Mort]

...beacause, as you say, there is no link to a club.

[RobbieRockBoy]

The pitch is like that because of all the badgers in Donnybrook.. the love to come out on a Sunday especially...

they have a cupla focal as well...

[Flash Gordon]

The pitch is like that because of all the badgers in Donnybrook.. the love to come out on a Sunday especially...

they have a cupla focal as well...

Its a bit early for Harp Robbie????

What the fock are you on about!!!