A whiff of Cordite

[ronk]

You'd never get any real Irish rugby players behaving like that. Except of course for all the times they have.

Ah I get that. But at least they actually wanted to play for Ireland, as opposed the highest bidder.

His utter nonchalance towards the country that is about to cap him is my main reason.
If he were our thug, or even explicitly chose to be our thug, I'd be far more inclined to overlook his thuggery.

Or at least they were good at pretending that it was a dream come true.

He’s not media friendly in that way. If he was all in for the money he’d have gone to France and never renewed. Lots of players make those noises, but it’s managed by their agent having a few pints with a hack.

[ronk]

Oh and he’s been loyal to Connacht when I’d expect the other provinces tried to get him. Bizarrely that can be spun to make it sound like he’s more of a mercenary.

[neiliog93]

You'd never get any real Irish rugby players behaving like that. Except of course for all the times they have.

ah now in fairness the way Aki talks to refs at times is probably the worst I've seen in nearly 20 years of watching rugby. He's a good athlete, a good player, and it's Joe's prerogative to pick the best players available to him. I'm not trying to saying Aki is a 'bad guy', he strikes me as the type of character who is loyal and caring to people he knows, and at times brash, aggressive and unpleasant to everyone else.

[simonokeeffe]

Just dawned on me, if Aki tears up trees for Ireland he potentially keeps Franno's Blackrock alumnus Ringrose out of the team

[Dave Cahill]

Ah I get that. But at least they actually wanted to play for Ireland, as opposed the highest bidder.

Umm, is that not what they actually did? Stander, Strauss et al all came over here for one reason and one reason only, they were signed by the union to the provinces for this reason. They were here to play for Ireland from day one. No matter what they thought of the place, how much they liked it or hated it, how much we liked or hated them, they were here for the green jersey, and only because the other green jersey was out of reach. They were bought and paid for from day one.

[curates_egg]

Ah I get that. But at least they actually wanted to play for Ireland, as opposed the highest bidder.

Umm, is that not what they actually did? Stander, Strauss et al all came over here for one reason and one reason only, they were signed by the union to the provinces for this reason. They were here to play for Ireland from day one. No matter what they thought of the place, how much they liked it or hated it, how much we liked or hated them, they were here for the green jersey, and only because the other green jersey was out of reach. They were bought and paid for from day one.

Stander is a perfect example to counterbalance with Aki actually, so I'm glad you did me the service of referring to him yourself.

He came to Ireland and from day one gave total commitment to the project he had signed up to. You may find his approach twee but he has been totally and demonstrably committed to Ireland (and Munster) in his time here. He (and his partner) have gone to great lengths to demonstrate that commitment. There has never been talk of him jumping ship, despite being at Munster during a very tumultuous time, with 3 different head coaches...and no trophies.
He has talked the talk and walked the walk.

Aki - in contrast - has not even bothered to pretend he is committed to Ireland for anything other than the money. Had his head turned at various times, and (supposedly) had to be seriously cajoled into staying after Lam announced he was leaving. It makes Irish rugby seem pathetic.

So, yeah, Stander is the shining example I would hold up in defence of naturalising players.
Aki is a perfect example for those who like to bash the system. Hopefully, he won't be as perfect as Josh Stauss. If, as it seems, he will become an Irish international, I hope he stays until the World Cup at least.

As to SOK's comment on Ringrose: I honestly think Henshaw and Ringrose would be a better combo for Ireland. Not an option this autumn of course.

[paddyor]

Umm, is that not what they actually did? Stander, Strauss et al all came over here for one reason and one reason only, they were signed by the union to the provinces for this reason. They were here to play for Ireland from day one. No matter what they thought of the place, how much they liked it or hated it, how much we liked or hated them, they were here for the green jersey, and only because the other green jersey was out of reach. They were bought and paid for from day one.

Stander is a perfect example to counterbalance with Aki actually, so I'm glad you did me the service of referring to him yourself.

He came to Ireland and from day one gave total commitment to the project he had signed up to. You may find his approach twee but he has been totally and demonstrably committed to Ireland (and Munster) in his time here. He (and his partner) have gone to great lengths to demonstrate that commitment. There has never been talk of him jumping ship, despite being at Munster during a very tumultuous time, with 3 different head coaches...and no trophies.
He has talked the talk and walked the walk.

Aki - in contrast - has not even bothered to pretend he is committed to Ireland for anything other than the money. Had his head turned at various times, and (supposedly) had to be seriously cajoled into staying after Lam announced he was leaving. It makes Irish rugby seem pathetic.

So, yeah, Stander is the shining example I would hold up in defence of naturalising players.
Aki is a perfect example for those who like to bash the system. Hopefully, he won't be as perfect as Josh Stauss. If, as it seems, he will become an Irish international, I hope he stays until the World Cup at least.

As to SOK's comment on Ringrose: I honestly think Henshaw and Ringrose would be a better combo for Ireland. Not an option this autumn of course.

None of which makes Dave's statement any less true. IRFU made both deals happen because.......

[suisse]

I've made my point on PP before. I don't blame the player for doing what's best for him. Short career and all that. I hate the process that brings those players here. The Union effectively bribing prospects to move to Ireland with the offer of an international cap. I don't care if the player is white or black. South African or Samoan. With tattoos or no tattoos. Christian or Muslim. There's something very wrong about scouting guys on the periphery of a Currie Cup team and asking them if they want to play for a country 12,000km away. A country they've never visited before, have absolutely no connection to. You wanna play international rugby? Here, sign this contract with Leinster.

I also don't get Oldschool's point. 15 is too many but what we have now is okay. Where do you draw the line? Do we need to start a game with Strauss at 2, Roux at 4, Stander and Diack in the backrow, Gibson Park at 9, TB at 10 with Aki, Payne and Lowe out wide. Is that too many?

Then there's the guff about the anthem. "Stander is singing it sure he's as Irish as the rest of us." Is that how cheap you view being Irish? Just get some bloke up there to learn the words. That makes him Irish? Meanwhile Ulster players are continually derided for not singing. They may have grown up clutching on to a real sense of Irishness and Britishness, played school's cup rugby in Ireland, stood on the terraces of Ravenhill and Lansdowne Road. Represented Ireland through the youth levels and dreamed of following in the footsteps of Willie John McBride, Trevor Ringland, Keith Wood and Brian O'Driscoll. But it is all questioned cos they won't sing a song which they feel doesn't represent them. They're less Irish than the guy who came chasing an international cap because his own country thought he wasn't good enough.

I wanna see Irish players playing for Ireland. A guy who moves early and goes to school here and learns his rugby here is great. But not some dude who packed his bags at 22 cos he knew he'd never play for NZ. Or SA. Or Aus. I don't care about the anthem either. You shouldn't be won over by a player based on that nor should you question a player's worth if they choose not to sing.

[Raydollard]

A lot of worthless musings on the subject of mercenaries. Rules is rules and that’s that.

[OTT]

A lot of worthless musings on the subject of mercenaries. Rules is rules and that’s that.

I think Johnny Sexton rules and that's that.

[jimbobjoe]

When have Ulster players been criticised for not singing Amhran na bhfiann? Nobody expects them to do that.

[OTT]

Poor aul Davy Tweed.

[jimbobjoe]

... in the last decade(or two?)

[OTT]

... in the last decade(or two?)

I was just having a laugh to myself that people might not consider him Irish, he would hate that!!

I agree with you. Sure half the team don't sing the anthem not just the Ulster players.

[Dave Cahill]

... in the last decade(or two?)

Constantly - 'how can you have a captain that doesn't even sing the anthem' is the latest one

[Dave Cahill]

I agree with you. Sure half the team don't sing the anthem not just the Ulster players.

The people who criticise them aren't interested in reality, just bigotry

[jimbobjoe]

... in the last decade(or two?)

Constantly - 'how can you have a captain that doesn't even sing the anthem' is the latest one

If it does happen fair enough - maybe I just don't pay attention to it. The only criticism of Best I've heard/read is lineout related!

[OTT]

If it does happen fair enough - maybe I just don't pay attention to it. The only criticism of Best I've heard/read is lineout related!

Or the over use of the word 'look' in interviews.

But maybe that is just me.

[wixfjord]

I also don't get Oldschool's point. 15 is too many but what we have now is okay. Where do you draw the line? Do we need to start a game with Strauss at 2, Roux at 4, Stander and Diack in the backrow, Gibson Park at 9, TB at 10 with Aki, Payne and Lowe out wide. Is that too many?

Of all the points on project players, this is the one I really can't understand, and it's made constantly.

If we ever get to a situation where we have that many project players starting for Ireland then we've bigger problems than just picking project players.

[riocard911]

If it does happen fair enough - maybe I just don't pay attention to it. The only criticism of Best I've heard/read is lineout related!

Or the over use of the word 'look' in interviews.

But maybe that is just me.

It's not just you. And Leo Cullen is nearly as bad with this continuous "Yeah, no...." start of the reply to every question. I find myself asking, "which is it, Leo? Yes? Or no?" Funnily enough, said speech idiosyncracy features not all that irregularly in Blues Talk TV (says he, not pointing the finger at anybody...)