A whiff of Cordite

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suisse
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Re: A whiff of Cordite

Post by suisse »

blockhead wrote:Joe probably knew the Law on this but didn't want to embarrass them.
Ya reckon? I'd say he has no idea himself.

I get it that rugby isn't a big deal for them. They're loaded with English football and Gaelic Games. But why bother doing anything at all if you won't do it properly? It is clear the presenters are uncertain of what's happening because they never question anything their guests say. For a personal opinion, then fine. I don't care. But if your guest is making sh!t up or doesn't know the laws of the game, you bring it up. Absolutely.
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suisse
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Re: A whiff of Cordite

Post by suisse »

According to my profile, I have been most active in this thread since joining the site in 2007. I really hate sh!t punditry in rugby. It seems to be accepted because there's still a strong belief that rugby is a minority sport. Too complex for most people. We can get by with a few guests understand this mess but we (the presenters) are just like the general public.

I genuinely wonder how many causal rugby fans listen to OTB. I would have guessed not too many as they might nit care much until the international are about. But who knows.
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Re: A whiff of Cordite

Post by artaneboy »

suisse wrote:According to my profile, I have been most active in this thread since joining the site in 2007. I really hate sh!t punditry in rugby. It seems to be accepted because there's still a strong belief that rugby is a minority sport. Too complex for most people. We can get by with a few guests understand this mess but we (the presenters) are just like the general public.

I genuinely wonder how many causal rugby fans listen to OTB. I would have guessed not too many as they might nit care much until the international are about. But who knows.
Look I know what you mean- and they occasionally drive me mad too. But I for one am glad that we get coverage- and I'd say an awful lot of causal rugby fans do listen to OTB.

I want the standard to improve, of course, but I'd rather it was there and annoying me- than to get all purist on it and drive us back into a precious little minority sport. I'm sure that soccer and GAA have their complaints too- but the lack of detailed knowledge is probably inevitable and is frankly, an acceptable cost of having generalists on popular programmes.

G.K. Chesterton said it really, “If a thing is worth doing, it is worth doing badly.”
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Re: A whiff of Cordite

Post by paddyor »

OTT wrote:I have always been of the opinion that Liam Toland is up for Leinster against Munster. I rewatched the match yesterday and I did not find Toland to bad, he called a few things for Munster but that is what a commentator has to do he is not supposed to be like Marcus Horan or the likes who just come across as fan boys for who ever they are supporting.

Toland called out Archer after the first time he did his lazy cheap shot and got away with it, I also agreed with him about Whitehouse copping out of giving Munster a pt and us a sinbinning for all those scrums under our posts. As Dave said above we can disagree with the scrum calls (which I do) but if Whitehouse saw them the way he saw them then he should have acted on it which is what Toland said.
It's been a long time since any scrum dominance has been awarded with a PT even after 3 on the trot so close to the line. This isn't 13/14. My theory is, and this applies to squint throws at the lineout as well, is that it would open up scrums to the kind of TMO scrutiny that's so common in the rest of the game.
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locho
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Re: A whiff of Cordite

Post by locho »

Dave Cahill wrote:
hey, thats Blues Talk's job!

As least we have the Law and pictures in this weeks episode!
Dave an excellent piece on the binding in the show this week, put the rest of media to shame. :clap:
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TerenureJim
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Re: A whiff of Cordite

Post by TerenureJim »

locho wrote:
Dave Cahill wrote:
hey, thats Blues Talk's job!

As least we have the Law and pictures in this weeks episode!
Dave an excellent piece on the binding in the show this week, put the rest of media to shame. :clap:
Lever arch? Ring pull? Saddle stitch? Hardcover? What method do people prefer, really hope OTB or IT get Toland to do a deep delve
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Laighin Break
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Re: A whiff of Cordite

Post by Laighin Break »

Woody also bemoaned the use of the TMO. He said it's fine for foul play or to check if someone's in touch, but not if someone's a yard offside.
If it's a check for a try, I don't get why it would be okay to check if someone's millimetres in touch, but not check if someone's decimetres offside.
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Re: A whiff of Cordite

Post by Peg Leg »

Laighin Break wrote:Woody also bemoaned the use of the TMO. He said it's fine for foul play or to check if someone's in touch, but not if someone's a yard offside.
If it's a check for a try, I don't get why it would be okay to check if someone's millimetres in touch, but not check if someone's decimetres offside.
Well that's a moot point if Earlsy scores anyway.
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LeRouxIsPHat
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Re: A whiff of Cordite

Post by LeRouxIsPHat »

It's a really obvious thing when you've caught the ball offisde, you know straight away. My god I wish Earls had just stopped and looked guilty instead of running down the pitch. There'd be no "debate" then.
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Re: A whiff of Cordite

Post by Ruckedtobits »

Franno and Tommy Conlan in S. Indo sprouting nonsense again. Franno with opinion the McGrath is ahead of Marmion and Cooney and Conlan criticising Murray for not releasing his current medical condition and insisting that the "fans" have a right to know.

Both opinions are 'horses#*t' and epitomise the arrogance of the media that their view is the only valid one.
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Re: A whiff of Cordite

Post by wixfjord »

Whatever about the Murray issue, it's hardly 'horseshit' and 'arrogance' to state that you believe McGrath is ahead of Cooney and Marmion.
You might not agree (and you've certainly made that clear a lot), but it's a fair enough opinion.
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Re: A whiff of Cordite

Post by artaneboy »

wixfjord wrote:Whatever about the Murray issue, it's hardly 'horseshit' and 'arrogance' to state that you believe McGrath is ahead of Cooney and Marmion.
You might not agree (and you've certainly made that clear a lot), but it's a fair enough opinion.
No- you're right that the opinion is not 'horseshit' or 'arrogance' just on the basis of the preference for McGrath. However the judgment is made without obvious evidence to support it- and Francis has displayed greater reservoirs of horseshit- and patently flaunts his arrogance (and its inevitable twin- ignorance) for that view of him and his views to be excusable.
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Re: A whiff of Cordite

Post by wixfjord »

artaneboy wrote:
wixfjord wrote:Whatever about the Murray issue, it's hardly 'horseshit' and 'arrogance' to state that you believe McGrath is ahead of Cooney and Marmion.
You might not agree (and you've certainly made that clear a lot), but it's a fair enough opinion.
No- you're right that the opinion is not 'horseshit' or 'arrogance' just on the basis of the preference for McGrath. However the judgment is made without obvious evidence to support it- and Francis has displayed greater reservoirs of horseshit- and patently flaunts his arrogance (and its inevitable twin- ignorance) for that view of him and his views to be excusable.
An opinion is an opinion. I wonder if it wasn't McGrath he were talking about would ye two lads be so damning!
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Re: A whiff of Cordite

Post by artaneboy »

wixfjord wrote:
artaneboy wrote:
wixfjord wrote:Whatever about the Murray issue, it's hardly 'horseshit' and 'arrogance' to state that you believe McGrath is ahead of Cooney and Marmion.
You might not agree (and you've certainly made that clear a lot), but it's a fair enough opinion.
No- you're right that the opinion is not 'horseshit' or 'arrogance' just on the basis of the preference for McGrath. However the judgment is made without obvious evidence to support it- and Francis has displayed greater reservoirs of horseshit- and patently flaunts his arrogance (and its inevitable twin- ignorance) for that view of him and his views to be excusable.
An opinion is an opinion. I wonder if it wasn't McGrath he were talking about would ye two lads be so damning!
Well yes. I think you'll find that I've rarely if ever praised Francis' journalism. It isn't just that he's an arse; he's also a lazy vindictive arse. I also remember and will not forgive the 'Ladyboys' epithet.

And no- not all opinions are of the same value. Your opinion needs to be backed by evidence and a rationale- especially when you have the bully pulpit of a national newspaper. So the lack of that support doesn't make it hard to dismiss.
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Re: A whiff of Cordite

Post by ronk »

Evidence? It’s a subjective assessment in a sports column from someone who doesn’t claim to be scientific.

Implied evidence is that he’s watched them play and expressed preference for one. Are you claiming that he hasn’t don’t that or just attacking Franno because you don’t like him and disagree with him (without producing supporting evidence).

Above are valid reasons btw, but I’m not so supportive of the evidence canard.
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A whiff of Cordite

Post by artaneboy »

ronk wrote:Evidence? It’s a subjective assessment in a sports column from someone who doesn’t claim to be scientific.

Implied evidence is that he’s watched them play and expressed preference for one. Are you claiming that he hasn’t don’t that or just attacking Franno because you don’t like him and disagree with him (without producing supporting evidence).

Above are valid reasons btw, but I’m not so supportive of the evidence canard.
My dislike of Frances requires no validation from evidence; although there’s plenty that I could quote. It’s an obvious emotional response to consistently weak analysis and journalism.

Francis’s view of the relative merits of SHs, is a different type of thing. It’s a supposed judgement on their rugby skills and utility. That does require a rationale. If you don’t offer one- it is just a valueless opinion.

“Implied evidence” is a ball of smoke. It’s not any real position that can be dealt with. State the argument and then it can be either accepted or countered. That’s what we generally do here.


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Re: A whiff of Cordite

Post by LeRouxIsPHat »

Speaking of evidence...did you read what he said before saying that he didn't provide evidence?

"Luke McGrath had a really effective performance on Friday. It is true that his pack even brought his slippers and pipe along on this armchair ride. McGrath picked up an injury at the wrong time of the season last year and missed the Grand Slam and missed out on selection for Australia. He is a far superior player right now to Kieran Marmion and John Cooney. The caveat is that this declaration is made on the basis that he performs for the champions of Europe, who play an irresistible brand of rugby but he is a key component in this, and every part of his game was first class on Friday.

"He made one tackle in the 15th minute when I suppose the game was still alive. Josh Bassett, the Wasps winger, came in off his wing from scrum ball in midfield and as the Leinster back line drifted Bassett was one-on-one with a man much smaller than he. The quality of that tackle was astonishing, as was its timing.

"It was the best tackle of the night and it demonstrated just one of McGrath’s many fine qualities. If he keeps playing like this he will be back in the Ireland picture."


Not the most detailed analysis but he seems to think that he dropped back in the pecking order because of his injury (which is a fairly valid reason for not thinking that Luke is at the back of the queue), says he played well on Friday, says he plays a key role in the great brand of rugby we play, and picks out his defence as a strong point.
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Re: A whiff of Cordite

Post by artaneboy »

LeRouxIsPHat wrote:Speaking of evidence...did you read what he said before saying that he didn't provide evidence?

"Luke McGrath had a really effective performance on Friday. It is true that his pack even brought his slippers and pipe along on this armchair ride. McGrath picked up an injury at the wrong time of the season last year and missed the Grand Slam and missed out on selection for Australia. He is a far superior player right now to Kieran Marmion and John Cooney. The caveat is that this declaration is made on the basis that he performs for the champions of Europe, who play an irresistible brand of rugby but he is a key component in this, and every part of his game was first class on Friday.

"He made one tackle in the 15th minute when I suppose the game was still alive. Josh Bassett, the Wasps winger, came in off his wing from scrum ball in midfield and as the Leinster back line drifted Bassett was one-on-one with a man much smaller than he. The quality of that tackle was astonishing, as was its timing.

"It was the best tackle of the night and it demonstrated just one of McGrath’s many fine qualities. If he keeps playing like this he will be back in the Ireland picture."


Not the most detailed analysis but he seems to think that he dropped back in the pecking order because of his injury (which is a fairly valid reason for not thinking that Luke is at the back of the queue), says he played well on Friday, says he plays a key role in the great brand of rugby we play, and picks out his defence as a strong point.
Jaysus- that's really weak shite to offer as evidence. I did read it and its the usual Francis claptrap. An assertion- followed by a description of Luke's game on Friday. Where he admittedly played well- if not to my viewing to the heights that you judged. But forget all that for now- the really obvious point is that there's no evidence for comparison and judgement- just I repeat- a claim. I don't disregard his opinion because i dislike him- although that's a temptation that I struggle to resist. it's because he is not a serious analyst. He may be a good writer- and can be entertaining, but even here he's not to my taste, because he's a cheap shot merchant.

I and others could do the same thing for Cooney- who I believe is clearly playing at a much higher and consistent standard than McGrath- and in a much weaker team, where the luxury of playing behind the probable best pack in the NH is not afforded him. Marmion is also to my view still a better player than Luke in a weaker team- if not by as much as the gap to Cooney. The "argument" on Luke's style fitting the brand of rugby we play is baffling- does Jamie's speedier and better passing not offer as much? The later has been excellent this year but was also very good last season too.

You have in the past made arguments for Luke's supremacy over other SHs, that had some merit- but to try and use Franno- just because that fraud happen to concur with you is... well weak, is still the best word.
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Re: A whiff of Cordite

Post by LeRouxIsPHat »

Utter nonsense. The point you made was that he didn't provide evidence...he did...you just don't agree with it. Stop shifting the goalposts with every argument you get called up on. I find it a bit odd that you didn't rebuff the argument he put forward until I posted the quotes given that you had already read them.

He probably didn't mention JGP because JGP didn't play in the game on Friday that this stemmed from, and because it would be a bit stupid to include him in a conversation about the pecking order of Irish scrumhalves in November given that JGP is a year away from being Irish qualified.

I'm not using Franno's words to back up any opinion I have of Luke. Nothing in my post (and I did this very deliberately knowing that you would make the leap that you did btw) mentioned anything at all about my thoughts on where Luke is in the pecking order...and guess what? Cooney is the guy that I would have at the front of the queue right now because of the fact that he can kick goals and cover ten which could end up being important in Japan.
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Re: A whiff of Cordite

Post by fourthirtythree »

Thought it was interesting that the Grauniad had McGrath as their headliner from our Friday match and the 42 had him in their team of the weekend. We are kind of tough on 9s here, always have been. I honestly think it's part of the reason we have failed to nurture them. Look how Cooney has blossomed with a bit of faith shown in him?

Always found Marion fairly meh, he just got lots of game time early. Thought Cooney was better than him at Connacht.
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