A whiff of Cordite

[riocard911]

Thought it was interesting that the Grauniad had McGrath as their headliner from our Friday match and the 42 had him in their team of the weekend. We are kind of tough on 9s here, always have been. I honestly think it's part of the reason we have failed to nurture them. Look how Cooney has blossomed with a bit of faith shown in him?

Always found Marion fairly meh, he just got lots of game time early. Thought Cooney was better than him at Connacht.

I thought Luke was great vs Wasps. Not perfect but great all the same. That tackle, where he tackled the one Wasp guy near the sideline and then caught the receiver of the pass by the foot while falling to prevent him scooting off for a potential try was absolutely top notch. That said, in the absence of Murray thus far this season Cooney is the in-form Irish scrum half, IMO. With his pressure kicking off the tee and his ability to play 10 - which he did towards the latter end of the Ulster match vs Leicester, I could see him making Joe's 31 man squad to Japan.

[hugonaut]

Thought it was interesting that the Grauniad had McGrath as their headliner from our Friday match and the 42 had him in their team of the weekend. We are kind of tough on 9s here, always have been. I honestly think it's part of the reason we have failed to nurture them. Look how Cooney has blossomed with a bit of faith shown in him?

Always found Marion fairly meh, he just got lots of game time early. Thought Cooney was better than him at Connacht.

From my experience, there are two elements of the game that this board [in general] has high/unrealistic/uninformed views on: scrum-half play and lineout throwing.

[TrapperChamonix]

I thought Luke was great vs Wasps. Not perfect but great all the same. That tackle, where he tackled the one Wasp guy near the sideline and then caught the receiver of the pass by the foot while falling to prevent him scooting off for a potential try was absolutely top notch. That said, in the absence of Murray thus far this season Cooney is the in-form Irish scrum half, IMO. With his pressure kicking off the tee and his ability to play 10 - which he did towards the latter end of the Ulster match vs Leicester, I could see him making Joe's 31 man squad to Japan.

+1

[curates_egg]

Thought it was interesting that the Grauniad had McGrath as their headliner from our Friday match and the 42 had him in their team of the weekend. We are kind of tough on 9s here, always have been. I honestly think it's part of the reason we have failed to nurture them. Look how Cooney has blossomed with a bit of faith shown in him?

Always found Marion fairly meh, he just got lots of game time early. Thought Cooney was better than him at Connacht.

Have never understood the Marmion hype. Great emergency winger though.

[OTT]

Thought it was interesting that the Grauniad had McGrath as their headliner from our Friday match and the 42 had him in their team of the weekend. We are kind of tough on 9s here, always have been. I honestly think it's part of the reason we have failed to nurture them. Look how Cooney has blossomed with a bit of faith shown in him?

Always found Marion fairly meh, he just got lots of game time early. Thought Cooney was better than him at Connacht.

Have never understood the Marmion hype. Great emergency winger though.

Has Marmion ever been hyped really?

He was the incumbent at Connacht from a young age while Ulster had a Springbok, Leinster had two thirtysomethings and Munster had Murray. Don't think there was much hype just as 433 said he was getting gametime when his peers were not.

[curates_egg]

Thought it was interesting that the Grauniad had McGrath as their headliner from our Friday match and the 42 had him in their team of the weekend. We are kind of tough on 9s here, always have been. I honestly think it's part of the reason we have failed to nurture them. Look how Cooney has blossomed with a bit of faith shown in him?

Always found Marion fairly meh, he just got lots of game time early. Thought Cooney was better than him at Connacht.

Have never understood the Marmion hype. Great emergency winger though.

Has Marmion ever been hyped really?

He was the incumbent at Connacht from a young age while Ulster had a Springbok, Leinster had two thirtysomethings and Munster had Murray. Don't think there was much hype just as 433 said he was getting gametime when his peers were not.

Maybe hype is the wrong word. To put it another way: I could never understood how he was picked ahead of Cooney. He's pretty ordinary in my view.

[OTT]

Maybe hype is the wrong word. To put it another way: I could never understood how he was picked ahead of Cooney. He's pretty ordinary in my view.

I think injury kept Cooney out for a few months at the start at Connacht ( I remember him rehabbing back with Leinster at the start of his first full season with Connacht) and then at one point they were sharing game time which was huge as Marmion had done every game for 80minutes for the previous two seasons then Cooney got injured again. Probably has a lot to do with luck and right place right time for Marmion. I think he is grand and he will give it his all every time but I would think that McGrath, OCD and Cooney (in no particular order) have a higher ceiling for sure.

[Oldschool]

Thought it was interesting that the Grauniad had McGrath as their headliner from our Friday match and the 42 had him in their team of the weekend. We are kind of tough on 9s here, always have been. I honestly think it's part of the reason we have failed to nurture them. Look how Cooney has blossomed with a bit of faith shown in him?

Always found Marion fairly meh, he just got lots of game time early. Thought Cooney was better than him at Connacht.

From my experience, there are two elements of the game that this board [in general] has high/unrealistic/uninformed views on: scrum-half play and lineout throwing.

You're right about the first but wrong about the second.
Think about it.
The first is done at speed, the second allows for plenty of set up time.

[Dave Cahill]

Does Joe even rate Cooney? He certainly didn't when he was Leinster coach and as Ireland coach he's given him the grand total of 7 minutes field time - in the same period McGrath has had 117 minutes including a start and 6 Nations gametime and Marmion has had a load of starts, including in the six nations, and gametime against most of the tier one teams. Now he might change his view on Cooney, but I wouldn't be in any way, shape or form surprised if he doesn't - Joe appears to be lacking in whelm at what he's seen thus far.

[paddyor]

Not sure it was hype as much as a furore tut Marmion was 4th in line behind an ageing Reddan and Boss. Barely even trained with the Irish team. Was a disgrace! Imagine what he could’ve learned holding tackle bags while Ireland won back to back 6 nations. Got a chance on the tour to Argentina, didn’t impress IIRC.

[curates_egg]

Does Joe even rate Cooney? He certainly didn't when he was Leinster coach and as Ireland coach he's given him the grand total of 7 minutes field time - in the same period McGrath has had 117 minutes including a start and 6 Nations gametime and Marmion has had a load of starts, including in the six nations, and gametime against most of the tier one teams. Now he might change his view on Cooney, but I wouldn't be in any way, shape or form surprised if he doesn't - Joe appears to be lacking in whelm at what he's seen thus far.

You always say this, but is it true? He brought him on in the 2012 Heineken Cup final to give him a run out at the end. He played 13 times in Joe's last season. It was MOC who refused to pick him, precipitating his departure to Connacht - a move that didn't work out well for him.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

Does Joe even rate Cooney? He certainly didn't when he was Leinster coach and as Ireland coach he's given him the grand total of 7 minutes field time - in the same period McGrath has had 117 minutes including a start and 6 Nations gametime and Marmion has had a load of starts, including in the six nations, and gametime against most of the tier one teams. Now he might change his view on Cooney, but I wouldn't be in any way, shape or form surprised if he doesn't - Joe appears to be lacking in whelm at what he's seen thus far.

I don't think he rates anyone other than Murray. Remember when he was injured against Wales? Or the 6N game this year where it looked like he messed up his knee? With all the changes he made in Oz and the stated desire to increase depth he still picked Murray in all three games.

Marmion has always performed when needed and I don't actually see him being shifted from second choice for the World Cup at this stage, but like others I'm underwhelmed by him. It's not that I think he's a bad player, but he's not the all action player who ran games and made breaks for fun for Connacht a few years ago. Maybe that's irrelevant to Joe but I feel like he could be better. Tbh if he hadn't hit those heights a few seasons ago then I'd probably just be thinking that he's really reliable back up who'll only be needed for big games if we're desperate. Luke and Cooney could be getting MOTM every week and it wouldn't suddenly turn them into impact subs for Ireland, Murray will still play for the 80 against any good team so maybe it's better to just stick with the proven back up.

[paddyor]

Does Joe even rate Cooney? He certainly didn't when he was Leinster coach and as Ireland coach he's given him the grand total of 7 minutes field time - in the same period McGrath has had 117 minutes including a start and 6 Nations gametime and Marmion has had a load of starts, including in the six nations, and gametime against most of the tier one teams. Now he might change his view on Cooney, but I wouldn't be in any way, shape or form surprised if he doesn't - Joe appears to be lacking in whelm at what he's seen thus far.

You always say this, but is it true? He brought him on in the 2012 Heineken Cup final to give him a run out at the end. He played 13 times in Joe's last season. It was MOC who refused to pick him, precipitating his departure to Connacht - a move that didn't work out well for him.

Ah here he got 2 minutes in a game we were cruising in and only because Boss dropped out at the last minute.

[Dave Cahill]

You always say this, but is it true? He brought him on in the 2012 Heineken Cup final to give him a run out at the end. He played 13 times in Joe's last season. It was MOC who refused to pick him, precipitating his departure to Connacht - a move that didn't work out well for him.

He brought everyone on - even the guys who were only on the bench because of injury to others, he gave JHW a run at the end of the previous year's final too. Its easy to blame MOC, but he picked him about as much as Schmidt did - not much and not at all unless he had to.

[blockhead]

Ulster Cooney is a very different animal to Connacht/Leinster Cooney. He's playing in what is/was a basket case team and behind a poor pack and he is thriving. He is one of their leaders on the pitch. If Joe made his mind up about him years ago then he needs to have a rethink.

[riocard911]

Ulster Cooney is a very different animal to Connacht/Leinster Cooney. He's playing in what is/was a basket case team and behind a poor pack and he is thriving. He is one of their leaders on the pitch. If Joe made his mind up about him years ago then he needs to have a rethink.

+1. If he hasn't done already. Joe will have been watching Cooney's progress in Ulster closely; you can be sure of it.

[Dave Cahill]

Ulster Cooney is a very different animal to Connacht/Leinster Cooney. He's playing in what is/was a basket case team and behind a poor pack and he is thriving. He is one of their leaders on the pitch. If Joe made his mind up about him years ago then he needs to have a rethink.

That is very true, he reminds me of a french stype of scrum half the way he's playing now

[artaneboy]

Utter nonsense. The point you made was that he didn't provide evidence...he did...you just don't agree with it. Stop shifting the goalposts with every argument you get called up on. I find it a bit odd that you didn't rebuff the argument he put forward until I posted the quotes given that you had already read them.

He probably didn't mention JGP because JGP didn't play in the game on Friday that this stemmed from, and because it would be a bit stupid to include him in a conversation about the pecking order of Irish scrumhalves in November given that JGP is a year away from being Irish qualified.

I'm not using Franno's words to back up any opinion I have of Luke. Nothing in my post (and I did this very deliberately knowing that you would make the leap that you did btw) mentioned anything at all about my thoughts on where Luke is in the pecking order...and guess what? Cooney is the guy that I would have at the front of the queue right now because of the fact that he can kick goals and cover ten which could end up being important in Japan.

Meh- if that's evidence, we can all go home. Wonderful to see your defence of Francis's journalistic credentials and his ability as an analyst- but you are the one who is being disingenuous here.

I'm shifting no goal posts- I'm just refusing to accept that a hack's opinions constitute any sort of argument- because there's nothing there...

It's patently obvious that the promotion of McGrath for Ireland suits an agenda for his selection over JGP for Leinster. Are you really trying to pretend that you've no interest in that?

[LeRouxIsPHat]

I'm not defending his credentials and have no agenda...I'm saying he provided evidence to back up what he said...you said he didn't.

Instead of a strawman argument, your response should have been "fair enough, hadn't actually read the article"...but instead you decided to argue the evidence that you said didn't actually exist...hard to work that one out!

[paddyor]

Utter nonsense. The point you made was that he didn't provide evidence...he did...you just don't agree with it. Stop shifting the goalposts with every argument you get called up on. I find it a bit odd that you didn't rebuff the argument he put forward until I posted the quotes given that you had already read them.

He probably didn't mention JGP because JGP didn't play in the game on Friday that this stemmed from, and because it would be a bit stupid to include him in a conversation about the pecking order of Irish scrumhalves in November given that JGP is a year away from being Irish qualified.

I'm not using Franno's words to back up any opinion I have of Luke. Nothing in my post (and I did this very deliberately knowing that you would make the leap that you did btw) mentioned anything at all about my thoughts on where Luke is in the pecking order...and guess what? Cooney is the guy that I would have at the front of the queue right now because of the fact that he can kick goals and cover ten which could end up being important in Japan.

Meh- if that's evidence, we can all go home. Wonderful to see your defence of Francis's journalistic credentials and his ability as an analyst- but you are the one who is being disingenuous here.

I'm shifting no goal posts- I'm just refusing to accept that a hack's opinions constitute any sort of argument- because there's nothing there...

It's patently obvious that the promotion of McGrath for Ireland suits an agenda for his selection over JGP for Leinster. Are you really trying to pretend that you've no interest in that?

Cow goes Moo! McGrath is in the running for the Ireland spot so will start over JGP anyway, this isn't a Williams/Mathewson or Pienaar/Marshall situation. And in any case, JGP has never shown himself to be that much better than McGrath ala Lowe or Fardy and their competition......but way to move the goal posts.