A whiff of Cordite

[desperado]

Scratching my head about which bits are half truths and which are inaccuracies. And what bits are one sided given it's an article about Connacht mainly. Most of the article is made up of direct quotes from Andy Friend.

I was thinking exactly the same.

How about the Article title, and then the first line. Connacht was never a Development province afaik. There is or was no such construct. Connacht don't receive the same level of financial support as the other 3 provinces; and this sentence implies all provinces receive and have received the same. All provinces provide 'opportunity' .. isn't that why JC moved South and Jordi North.


TTF didn't realise you actually did any thinking....

[tomthefan]

Very difficult to take Joe Molloy seriously. The host of the biggest sports show in Ireland and he's never even been to Dalymount Park, the home of Irish football. I'm not one of those "League of Ireland lads" but I would have thought someone with a keen interest in Irish sport and football especially would make that effort. The bar under the main stand is dripping with history. Molloy is an embarrassment. Just too much Premier League and talking about those teams as if they're our own. "Roma v Porto Kev? Who cares!"

I'd strongly disagree, and not just because I like Joe.
I went to a lot of LOI games as a kid, I've even been to see at least one in Dalymount Park
Dalymount hasn't hosted a game of any importance probably since Joe was wearing nappies, if not before.
So, the only reason he would have to visit there would be if he was doing a piece on the history of Irish soccer.
Dalymount Park's decrepitude is testimony to the shambles that is, and always has been, Irish football.
If you recall, the only reason it's still there is because the deal to tear it down and replace it with houses, fell through when the Celtic Tiger crashed.

[tomthefan]

Scratching my head about which bits are half truths and which are inaccuracies. And what bits are one sided given it's an article about Connacht mainly. Most of the article is made up of direct quotes from Andy Friend.

I was thinking exactly the same.

How about the Article title, and then the first line. Connacht was never a Development province afaik. There is or was no such construct. Connacht don't receive the same level of financial support as the other 3 provinces; and this sentence implies all provinces receive and have received the same. All provinces provide 'opportunity' .. isn't that why JC moved South and Jordi North.


TTF didn't realise you actually did any thinking....

[Angelsea Angst]

Tbf the game on Saturday was pretty sh!t. The defence for COB's try summed it up, it was a non event.

Granted, but they shouldn't be running down the league every opportunity they get. There's a degree of negativeness in media coverage of Irish rugby that's hard to fathom.

I agree. We don't necessarily need the media to be the cheerleaders of the Pro14 but why go out of their way to be so critical. Surely the fact that there were full houses in the RDS , Thomand , the Sportsground And Kingspan over the holiday period should be something to be celebrated rather than sneered at. As regards the bias against Leinster, that is a long standing situation which is only kept at bay by Leinster lifting trophies as frequently as possible

[LeRouxIsPHat]

Very difficult to take Joe Molloy seriously. The host of the biggest sports show in Ireland and he's never even been to Dalymount Park, the home of Irish football. I'm not one of those "League of Ireland lads" but I would have thought someone with a keen interest in Irish sport and football especially would make that effort. The bar under the main stand is dripping with history. Molloy is an embarrassment. Just too much Premier League and talking about those teams as if they're our own. "Roma v Porto Kev? Who cares!"

That's way OTT. I'm a big fan of Joe, think he's excellent and I don't listen if anyone else is presenting.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

Tbf the game on Saturday was pretty sh!t. The defence for COB's try summed it up, it was a non event.

Granted, but they shouldn't be running down the league every opportunity they get. There's a degree of negativeness in media coverage of Irish rugby that's hard to fathom.

Don't disagree with that but don't think that questioning the selection policy is a bad thing. I hate seeing weakened sides and it leads to things like the talk about the Champions Cup being reduced. Look I know it's great for us because we have an amazing academy (and Munster because they can get a good look at our players) but I didn't give a toss about the Ulster game because I knew they'd be sending down a weak side and that it wouldn't be competitive no matter who we put out.

I'll never forget that Daire O'Brien clown saying "well I suppose we have to talk about Connacht" on ATH a few years ago after they had discussed the other provinces in detail. That kind of thing grinds my gears, but the selection point is a legitimate one.

[Dexter]

Tbf the game on Saturday was pretty sh!t. The defence for COB's try summed it up, it was a non event.

Granted, but they shouldn't be running down the league every opportunity they get. There's a degree of negativeness in media coverage of Irish rugby that's hard to fathom.

Don't disagree with that but don't think that questioning the selection policy is a bad thing. I hate seeing weakened sides and it leads to things like the talk about the Champions Cup being reduced. Look I know it's great for us because we have an amazing academy (and Munster because they can get a good look at our players) but I didn't give a toss about the Ulster game because I knew they'd be sending down a weak side and that it wouldn't be competitive no matter who we put out.

I'll never forget that Daire O'Brien clown saying "well I suppose we have to talk about Connacht" on ATH a few years ago after they had discussed the other provinces in detail. That kind of thing grinds my gears, but the selection point is a legitimate one.

Yeah I agree to a certain extent, you can get some disappointing selections for the away sides. For Leinster, I think a lot of regulars like seeing the new guys and how they develop, it's part of the fun in the long run.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

Yeah and I'm like that too in fairness, it's why I go to the A games. We're probably a special case as well, it's not like our team last weekend was full strength so it would be hard to get both selections right for a competitive game given the other priorities that both teams have this weekend. There are potential solutions though, so no harm in discussing them.

[Ruckedtobits]

I heard a few minutes of OTB the other day and was surprised by ROC saying that nobody knew about Boyle before pre season and the same for Tom Farrell before he started performing for Connacht. I know that neither were household names and that this place isn't exactly representative of the average fan but I would have thought they were pretty well known.

I bet Murray Kinsella would have known about them anyway!

Farrell was recommended to Pat Lam / Carolan by one of the Leinster backroom. He was always rated in Leinster but just needed to get his S&C up to speed to be a very good Pro. As always, there were a bunch of mid-field players around and Henshaw was on his way.

Very often, this problem occurs because the Head Coach is looking at who will fill the main slots, not the back-up as well. Farrell would probably have been retained under current management but, guess who was head Coach?

[mildlyinterested]

I heard a few minutes of OTB the other day and was surprised by ROC saying that nobody knew about Boyle before pre season and the same for Tom Farrell before he started performing for Connacht. I know that neither were household names and that this place isn't exactly representative of the average fan but I would have thought they were pretty well known.

I bet Murray Kinsella would have known about them anyway!

Farrell was recommended to Pat Lam / Carolan by one of the Leinster backroom. He was always rated in Leinster but just needed to get his S&C up to speed to be a very good Pro. As always, there were a bunch of mid-field players around and Henshaw was on his way.

Very often, this problem occurs because the Head Coach is looking at who will fill the main slots, not the back-up as well. Farrell would probably have been retained under current management but, guess who was head Coach?

MOC: the gift that keeps on giving.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

Farrell was recommended to Pat Lam / Carolan by one of the Leinster backroom. He was always rated in Leinster but just needed to get his S&C up to speed to be a very good Pro. As always, there were a bunch of mid-field players around and Henshaw was on his way.

Very often, this problem occurs because the Head Coach is looking at who will fill the main slots, not the back-up as well. Farrell would probably have been retained under current management but, guess who was head Coach?

I know he had his injuries but he was very raw as well. His handling wasn't great and while he had power he didn't always make it count. I wouldn't blame MOC for letting him go, he was never going to be able to improve him and if he couldn't stay fit and if Girv couldn't get more out of him then he had to move. I've no doubt the current coaches would have improved him if he'd stuck around and remained healthy though alright.

[Dave Cahill]

He can't have been that highly rated, they didn't offer him an academy slot initially - it was only after doing well in the JWRC that he was brought in.

Sometimes guys develop later or they need lots of gametime to hit their stride - but thats no good to a club like Leinster though. If you aren't ready for European Rugby when your time in the academy is up, sayonara, there are lots of other guys in your group who will be. In his case his peers were Ringrose and O'Loughlin!

[Dave Cahill]

I hate seeing weakened sides and it leads to things like the talk about the Champions Cup being reduced.

I'd suggest that if all the Pro14 clubs were to travel through time and space and sign the greatest players the world has ever seen in every position and play them every week against all opposition then there would still be talk about the Champions Cup being reduced because it has nothing to do with anything except the PRLs desire to control as many competitions as they can in order to hoover up as much cash as possible

[ronk]

Farrell was recommended to Pat Lam / Carolan by one of the Leinster backroom. He was always rated in Leinster but just needed to get his S&C up to speed to be a very good Pro. As always, there were a bunch of mid-field players around and Henshaw was on his way.

Very often, this problem occurs because the Head Coach is looking at who will fill the main slots, not the back-up as well. Farrell would probably have been retained under current management but, guess who was head Coach?

I know he had his injuries but he was very raw as well. His handling wasn't great and while he had power he didn't always make it count. I wouldn't blame MOC for letting him go, he was never going to be able to improve him and if he couldn't stay fit and if Girv couldn't get more out of him then he had to move. I've no doubt the current coaches would have improved him if he'd stuck around and remained healthy though alright.

He has some similarities with Beirne. Talented but not outstanding immediately. Handling skills weaknesses that were reasonably quickly addressed in an environment where they got more attention.

It's history now as we have changed but when you look at someone like Josh Murphy you can see how easily it could happen.

[paddyor]

Don't disagree with that but don't think that questioning the selection policy is a bad thing. I hate seeing weakened sides and it leads to things like the talk about the Champions Cup being reduced. Look I know it's great for us because we have an amazing academy (and Munster because they can get a good look at our players) but I didn't give a toss about the Ulster game because I knew they'd be sending down a weak side and that it wouldn't be competitive no matter who we put out.

The Pro14 supplies the bulk of players to 4 national sides. For the sake of simplicity lets say that squads are 42 players and 12 squads which gives a total of 504 senior players to supply test training squads of c50(the England Pro Squad is 50) for 4 teams. With players playing abroad that's probably between 170-190. A little under 120 will definitely not be available for matches etc. which is 7-9 weeks of the season. Thats before you factor in injuries. Squad development is mandatory especially if you have a team stacked with internationals e.g Leinster, Glasgow, Ospreys(once had 14 selected to start for wales). Getting your most senior team on the pitch at every turn didn't work for MOC.

If you look at the Scottish teams where the player drain is more acute with there being only 2 teams it's something that Cockerill seems to be struggling with. He seems to just bung together whoever is left with a few academy lads ad hocIf you contrast that with how Townsend used to mix and match throughout the year to build his squad. The Weegie fans call it the Tonnie Tombola but if drill down into the numbers you'll probably find he's working to a plan to get the players starts/mins etc. It's really stood to Glasgow.

Ulster are rebuilding, he's really cleared out a lot of playersso that team probably is the best they could field given the player management rules. That's the bulk of the side that will play during the 6 nations and those are all must win games. I'd imagine McFarland was hoping for a better performance. The point being I think there's more to it than he sent down a team to get slaughtered. Their season will probably come down to the last 3 games Glasgow (A), Edinburgh(A) and Leinster (H). They need a min of 30 points from 8 games(40pts) to make the play-offs and the weakened squad he sent out will feature quite a bit.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

I'm fully aware of why teams are weakened thanks.

My point was that I want competitive games, and there could be ways of achieving that. I'm not interested in getting into it because it's really complicated (for example, maybe three interpros back to back in the lead up to Europe is too much of a stretch for the other squads, but that's offset by the big crowds at this time of year. Or maybe some mix and match selections would just ruin two games instead of one). Plus most of the games have been competitive, so maybe one non event like Saturday doesn't mean that there's a problem that needs to be rectified.

But that all just means that it's worth Joe Molloy discussing it on OTB, it's not a pointless topic to bring up.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

I was just listening to Shaggy on Second Captains and he really does talk an awful lot of shite. He was praising the Munster attack and saying how everything seems to have fallen into place, but aside from Saturday their attack has been dreadful recently. If he had purely praised them for that performance then fair enough, but that was very much an outlier. It may well kick on from that game but to hear him speak made me think that he hadn't watched them all season.

[paddyor]

I'm fully aware of why teams are weakened thanks.

My point was that I want competitive games, and there could be ways of achieving that. I'm not interested in getting into it because it's really complicated (for example, maybe three interpros back to back in the lead up to Europe is too much of a stretch for the other squads, but that's offset by the big crowds at this time of year. Or maybe some mix and match selections would just ruin two games instead of one). Plus most of the games have been competitive, so maybe one non event like Saturday doesn't mean that there's a problem that needs to be rectified.

But that all just means that it's worth Joe Molloy discussing it on OTB, it's not a pointless topic to bring up.

Well the point is those reasons are more important than this.

it leads to things like the talk about the Champions Cup being reduced.

The weakened teams argument was always a canard and they've basically conceded the point on player welfare by planning to rest the EPS players more. Resting players is rife in the Top14. Even with 26-29 rounds the English players who played France in the 6N had for the most part played more minutes than the French ones In fact they've pivoted to reducing the competition(though not actually reducing it) on grounds of player welfare. I reckon if they do go ahead with ringfencing there'll take more chances developing young players. Brian Moore was making that point on his (now canceled) podcast the other day.

[fourthirtythree]

No. It was absolutely pointless bringing it up. Particularly in the context of a really competitive interpro series.

And the issue of the English wanting to control the Heineken cup is a genuine non sequitur. It's as unrelated as two topics in rugby can be. I mean sure, they could get Robert Kitson to mention it in a story attempting to justify some power grab but even the PR guy briefing him would be unlikely to resist a smirk while doing it.

I'm kind of shocked at anyone taking that seriously. Well played English PR man.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

Well the point is those reasons are more important than this.

it leads to things like the talk about the Champions Cup being reduced.

The weakened teams argument was always a canard and they've basically conceded the point on player welfare by planning to rest the EPS players more. Resting players is rife in the Top14. Even with 26-29 rounds the English players who played France in the 6N had for the most part played more minutes than the French ones In fact they've pivoted to reducing the competition(though not actually reducing it) on grounds of player welfare. I reckon if they do go ahead with ringfencing there'll take more chances developing young players. Brian Moore was making that point on his (now canceled) podcast the other day.

Well no, the point is that there are multiple facets to this so that's why it's worth discussing, which the last page or two have probably proved. Would I change things? Probably not because I can't think of a perfect solution to having poor games like that, and from a Leinster and Ireland fan POV we get to be successful off the back of it but that doesn't mean it's ideal.

I don't think the weakened teams/no relegation argument is a canard at all. It clearly benefits us hugely, but I think that shooting us down for it or changing the Champions Cup to negate our advantage is the wrong part. We have our house in order and they should look to do the same instead of just tearing ours down.