A whiff of Cordite

[curates_egg]

Its easy to blame MOC, but he picked him about as much as Schmidt did - not much and not at all unless he had to.

He didn't pick him as much as Schmidt though. IIRC he played half as many games in MOC's first season as in Schmidt's last. While that is in keeping with the general trend under MOC of not playing younger players, it doesn't really support your thesis.

[Dave Cahill]

Its easy to blame MOC, but he picked him about as much as Schmidt did - not much and not at all unless he had to.

He didn't pick him as much as Schmidt though. IIRC he played half as many games in MOC's first season as in Schmidt's last. While that is in keeping with the general trend under MOC of not playing younger players, it doesn't really support your thesis.

In Schmidts last year Reddan broke his leg playing for Ireland leading to an increase in 5 minute specials for Cooney - but thats because there was no one else. In his three years in charge, Schmidt actually started Cillian Willis as many times as he started Cooney - and Willis was only here for 12 weeks.

[artaneboy]

Utter nonsense. The point you made was that he didn't provide evidence...he did...you just don't agree with it. Stop shifting the goalposts with every argument you get called up on. I find it a bit odd that you didn't rebuff the argument he put forward until I posted the quotes given that you had already read them.

He probably didn't mention JGP because JGP didn't play in the game on Friday that this stemmed from, and because it would be a bit stupid to include him in a conversation about the pecking order of Irish scrumhalves in November given that JGP is a year away from being Irish qualified.

I'm not using Franno's words to back up any opinion I have of Luke. Nothing in my post (and I did this very deliberately knowing that you would make the leap that you did btw) mentioned anything at all about my thoughts on where Luke is in the pecking order...and guess what? Cooney is the guy that I would have at the front of the queue right now because of the fact that he can kick goals and cover ten which could end up being important in Japan.

Meh- if that's evidence, we can all go home. Wonderful to see your defence of Francis's journalistic credentials and his ability as an analyst- but you are the one who is being disingenuous here.

I'm shifting no goal posts- I'm just refusing to accept that a hack's opinions constitute any sort of argument- because there's nothing there...

It's patently obvious that the promotion of McGrath for Ireland suits an agenda for his selection over JGP for Leinster. Are you really trying to pretend that you've no interest in that?

Cow goes Moo! McGrath is in the running for the Ireland spot so will start over JGP anyway, this isn't a Williams/Mathewson or Pienaar/Marshall situation. And in any case, JGP has never shown himself to be that much better than McGrath ala Lowe or Fardy and their competition......but way to move the goal posts.

Eh! I’ve no idea what most of that’s supposed to mean. You’ve so many names in there- not to mention metaphors that it’s disappearing up its own hoop!

The main point I made st the start of this round is really clear; but just once more for the record- Francis’s claims on McGrath being better than Cooney (particularly) and Marmion are not based on any credible evidence. To my view, Luke had improved, but he’s not as good as the other two IQ.

You already know my position on him vis-a-vis JGP which is they are closely matched with differing but converging strengths. So while Luke has played well, it is also obvious that Jamie too has started the season in fine form.


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[artaneboy]

I'm not defending his credentials and have no agenda...I'm saying he provided evidence to back up what he said...you said he didn't.

Instead of a strawman argument, your response should have been "fair enough, hadn't actually read the article"...but instead you decided to argue the evidence that you said didn't actually exist...hard to work that one out!

Listen LRIP- I read the dreary article. It’s not hard to get the Sindo in ireland. Okay? It’s not evidence; it’s opinion. And obviously so too. The contortions you’re indulging in on this are getting tiresome.

BTW- I heard Malcolm O’Kelly on OTB on Monday decrying the practice you claimed didn’t exist. Ye know that one of the 9s putting the ball in ridiculously crooked to the scrum. I assume he’s imaging it too?





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[Oldschoolsocks]

I'm not defending his credentials and have no agenda...I'm saying he provided evidence to back up what he said...you said he didn't.

Instead of a strawman argument, your response should have been "fair enough, hadn't actually read the article"...but instead you decided to argue the evidence that you said didn't actually exist...hard to work that one out!

Listen LRIP- I read the dreary article. It’s not hard to get the Sindo in ireland. Okay? It’s not evidence; it’s opinion. And obviously so too. The contortions you’re indulging in on this is getting tiresome.

BTW- I heard Malcolm O’Kelly on OTB on Monday decrying the practice you claimed didn’t exist. Ye know that one of the 9s putting the ball in ridiculously crooked to the scrum. I assume he’s imaging it too?




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Did Mal say anything else of note?

[artaneboy]

I'm not defending his credentials and have no agenda...I'm saying he provided evidence to back up what he said...you said he didn't.

Instead of a strawman argument, your response should have been "fair enough, hadn't actually read the article"...but instead you decided to argue the evidence that you said didn't actually exist...hard to work that one out!

Listen LRIP- I read the dreary article. It’s not hard to get the Sindo in ireland. Okay? It’s not evidence; it’s opinion. And obviously so too. The contortions you’re indulging in on this is getting tiresome.

BTW- I heard Malcolm O’Kelly on OTB on Monday decrying the practice you claimed didn’t exist. Ye know that one of the 9s putting the ball in ridiculously crooked to the scrum. I assume he’s imaging it too?




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Did Mal say anything else of note?

Seriously- you haven’t listened to it?

Yeah- loads of interesting stuff. To the point he mentioned Luke’s improvement generally- despite continuing concerns on his basics in passing the ball. Andy and Mal had a good discussion on the issues of SHs.

Now Mal is an ex-Leinster second row who opinions I respect...


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[Oldschoolsocks]

His comment on why he rarely played with Franno was very funny and probably only half in jest

[johng]

His comment on why he rarely played with Franno was very funny and probably only half in jest

Go on then.

[backrower8]

His comment on why he rarely played with Franno was very funny and probably only half in jest

Go on then.

Perhaps partially because their Ireland careers didn't overlap at all and their Leinster careers might have had one or two seasons...at most.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

I'm not defending his credentials and have no agenda...I'm saying he provided evidence to back up what he said...you said he didn't.

Instead of a strawman argument, your response should have been "fair enough, hadn't actually read the article"...but instead you decided to argue the evidence that you said didn't actually exist...hard to work that one out!

Listen LRIP- I read the dreary article. It’s not hard to get the Sindo in ireland. Okay? It’s not evidence; it’s opinion. And obviously so too. The contortions you’re indulging in on this are getting tiresome.

BTW- I heard Malcolm O’Kelly on OTB on Monday decrying the practice you claimed didn’t exist. Ye know that one of the 9s putting the ball in ridiculously crooked to the scrum. I assume he’s imaging it too?


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Francis backed up what he said...you said he didn't. No strawman will change that.

I must be imagining that you said you were finished arguing about crooked feeds. I fast forwarded through it so may have missed it but I didn't hear Mal say anything about them. I did hear Andy Dunne mention it though, it was just after he said that he doesn't know what happens in a scrum.

[molloyjh]

Its easy to blame MOC, but he picked him about as much as Schmidt did - not much and not at all unless he had to.

He didn't pick him as much as Schmidt though. IIRC he played half as many games in MOC's first season as in Schmidt's last. While that is in keeping with the general trend under MOC of not playing younger players, it doesn't really support your thesis.

In Schmidts last year Reddan broke his leg playing for Ireland leading to an increase in 5 minute specials for Cooney - but thats because there was no one else. In his three years in charge, Schmidt actually started Cillian Willis as many times as he started Cooney - and Willis was only here for 12 weeks.

There also seemed to be a shift in focus at 9 when MOC came in too. McGraths appearances increased in almost direct proportion to the decrease in Cooneys IIRC.

[artaneboy]

I'm not defending his credentials and have no agenda...I'm saying he provided evidence to back up what he said...you said he didn't.

Instead of a strawman argument, your response should have been "fair enough, hadn't actually read the article"...but instead you decided to argue the evidence that you said didn't actually exist...hard to work that one out!

Listen LRIP- I read the dreary article. It’s not hard to get the Sindo in ireland. Okay? It’s not evidence; it’s opinion. And obviously so too. The contortions you’re indulging in on this are getting tiresome.

BTW- I heard Malcolm O’Kelly on OTB on Monday decrying the practice you claimed didn’t exist. Ye know that one of the 9s putting the ball in ridiculously crooked to the scrum. I assume he’s imaging it too?


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Francis backed up what he said...you said he didn't. No strawman will change that.

I must be imagining that you said you were finished arguing about crooked feeds. I fast forwarded through it so may have missed it but I didn't hear Mal say anything about them. I did hear Andy Dunne mention it though, it was just after he said that he doesn't know what happens in a scrum.

Ah- the OTB conversation, yeah it was Andy who mentioned it rather than Mal. So because he was a back he can’t judge a crooked in?? You really are gas! . The King of the Straw Men.

I’ll leave you and Franno to your love-in.


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[LeRouxIsPHat]

Ah- the OTB conversation, yeah it was Andy who mentioned it rather than Mal. So because he was a back he can’t judge a crooked in?? You really are gas! . The King of the Straw Men.

I’ll leave you and Franno to your love-in.

I never said that, I said that he himself admitted that he didn't know much about scrums. Please stop putting words in my mouth.

I...disagreed...with what Franno said.

An actual straw man would have better comprehension skills.

[mildlyinterested]

jesus off the ball were spouting some cr@p about a schools cup draft this morning.

[blockhead]

Here it is.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STtdZjtMCn0

They were talking about a Leinster draft specifically. I.E., the other 3 Provinces come up to the big smoke once a year and pick which young lad they want for themselves. The Province with the worst record from the previous season get to pick first. Leinster get what ever is left I suppose. Brilliant.
TBF Mcintyre was havin none of it.

[mildlyinterested]

Here it is.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STtdZjtMCn0

They were talking about a Leinster draft specifically. I.E., the other 3 Provinces come up to the big smoke once a year and pick which young lad they want for themselves. The Province with the worst record from the previous season get to pick first. Leinster get what ever is left I suppose. Brilliant.
TBF Mcintyre was havin none of it.

It's all Gilroy really, since Carbery went south he has been all about the rivalry is dead, the provinces don't matter anymore. "Leinster have too much talent"

[wixfjord]

They're being facetious in fairness, but jaysus that was mind numbing stuff. The OTB Live/during the day stuff has gone really bad. Just filling gaps. And the main show isn't great any more either (although I do rate Joe Molloy more than Gilroy now).

[riocard911]

They're being facetious in fairness, but jaysus that was mind numbing stuff. The OTB Live/during the day stuff has gone really bad. Just filling gaps. And the main show isn't great any more either (although I do rate Joe Molloy more than Gilroy now).

Good thing I don't listen to them so!!!

[Lar]

Jaysus Gilroy is clueless....

[dropkick]

They're being facetious in fairness, but jaysus that was mind numbing stuff. The OTB Live/during the day stuff has gone really bad. Just filling gaps. And the main show isn't great any more either (although I do rate Joe Molloy more than Gilroy now).

I thought it was a good discussion and something different from the usual boring refereeing controversies.


I wouldn't be for it myself because it could make all the provinces lazy in terms of player development. Leinster will probably not like developing players for the other 3 while the other 3 might get lazy if they have the pick of Leinster players.


The current system works fine so why change it. Leinster can take their pick and as the average age of the squad continues to fall, you'll see more players looking to leave to get game time.


Munster and Ulster have gotten their academies producing now as well, much better than before.