A whiff of Cordite

[Xanthippe]

Btw, did anyone read Darce’s article today - did he ‘accidentally’ announce Jamie Heaslip’s retirement?

Not many ex-players become lawyers like Shane Horgan and lecture at Trinity College or, like Ronan O’Gara are recruited by the Canterbury Crusaders or grow into a serial entrepreneur like Jamie Heaslip.

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.irishti ... 3fmode=amp

[neiliog93]

Oh dear. I'm going to take that article apart point by point.

1: "Donnacha Ryan won’t be missed by Ireland. We’ve got plenty of other players to come in. Simon Zebo won’t be missed by Ireland. We’re well stocked in the back three. Munster will miss Peter O’Mahony and CJ Stander. Ireland won’t.

Believe it or not I’ve come across these statements on a number of occasions from deluded fans and pundits, and quite frankly, I’m beginning to get sick and tired of it. This feeling that players outside of Leinster are easily replaced within the Irish set-up is a steaming pile of biased, elitist, ignorant nonsense that is going to destroy Irish Rugby."

Response: There was widespread gnashing of teeth when Ryan left. Re.Zebo and O'Mahony, I don't think anyone is questioning their quality or that they will be badly missed by Munster, but Ireland have a lot of depth in their positions. They're very good players where we as a nation are lucky enough to have other very good players, hence they are not indispensable. In an ideal world they would remain in Ireland for the sake of our depth, of course, but French money and (maybe) lack of loyalty comes into play. Trotting out a tired line about Leinster rugby being elitist is clichéd and simply inaccurate.

2: "It’s unfair to tar everyone in Leinster with the same brush, but unfortunately it’s getting to stage where the deluded have overtaken the realists. And this goes for fans as well as pundits, journalists etc. And of course, the IRFU."

Response: Have you performed a statistical analysis to show that the 'deluded' have now overtaken the 'realists'? Probably not. Bizarre claim. The media is and always has been massively pro-Munster and quite snide about Leinster (Cummiskey, Kiely, O'Sullivan, the bald fella in the Irish Times, the whole Indo, etc), so I don't know what you're getting at there. There has been mass outrage at the departure of Munster players in the Irish media (and mainly silence re.Marty Moore and Madigan leaving Leinster) so don't know what you're getting at there.

3. "Leinster are the be all and end all of Irish Rugby as far as they are concerned, but when any of us based outside the capital moan, we’re told we’re talking complete nonsense.

Face it, anything that comes out of Dublin will always be favoured above the rest of the country. It’s the capital after all. It’s where our government offices are, it’s where the media is based, it’s where the IRFU are based, hell even World Rugby are in Dublin."

Response: Is this is the same IRFU that gave Munster extra help with the funding for the redevelopment of Thomond Park that Leinster did not get for the RDS? The same IRFU that have permitted Munster more NIQ players than Leinster in the last number of seasons? (Including bending the rules by allowing ' medical jokers' like Taute stay longer). The same IRFU that actively encourage Leinster's talented young players to move to other provinces. The more general stuff about Dublin says more about the chip on your shoulder/inferiority complex than anything rugby related so we won't go there.

4."This has always been the case, and will continue to do so, and for good reason most of the time to be fair. But when it starts to have a serious knock on effect like it is beginning to have with Munster, something needs to be done.

The IRFU didn’t back Donnacha Ryan, either did the media, or the Leinster fans. The same thing happened with Simon Zebo (albeit to a lesser extent) and now it’s beginning to happen to Peter O’Mahony and CJ Stander".

Response: The IRFU didn't back Donnacha Ryan because they had cut the number of central contracts available back to 13-14 from over 20, in response to financial pressures. Simon Zebo was offered a big-money central contract and turned it down. Peter O'Mahony has been offered a central contract, we'll see what happens. The IRFU had a choice between offering O'Mahony or Stander the available central contract and correctly chose O'Mahony; nonetheless they are reported to be offering to top up Stander's provincial contract, ultimately making the offer worth around 280k per year, which is hardly shoddy.

5."These players are and were undervalued both contract wise by the IRFU and ability and influence wise by Leinster-based fans, pundits and journalists. Do you really believe Donnacha Ryan and Simon Zebo wouldn’t have started in November if they were available for selection? Do you really think Jamie Heaslip, Rhys Ruddock or Jack Conan etc. are better than the Lions duo of O’Mahony or Stander right now? Come on. Be truthful to yourself.

If Ireland want to compete at the highest level they need their best players, and this nonsense that O’Mahony or Stander will not be missed and can be simply replaced by one of Leinster’s many back-rows is laughable."

Response: i) Again, the media have been going mad about all the Munster players leaving/thinking about leaving. Look at Thornley and Luke Fitzgerald recently for two thorough Leinstermen who have been totally anti-IRFU in all of this.
ii) D.Ryan would have been a 50-50 call with Toner to start. His departure was definitely a loss for Ireland, but not an insurmountable loss, which I think was the point of most of the commentary. Zebo would have had a good chance of starting, yes.
iii) O'Mahony hasn't been playing well for a while now, while Ruddock has hit serious form and captained Ireland several times. O'Mahony is probably still slightly ahead of him but the gap is narrowing all the time. Pretty much exactly the same situation with the Stander-Conan battle for selection. Heaslip is a two-time Lion and if he can get fit and firing again, will be on a similar level to O'Mahony and Stander, albeit a different type of player.
iii) Few people have been saying they won't be missed. But based on the talent we have in their positions, their loss can be mitigated reasonably well (from an Ireland perspective, not I admit from a Munster perspective). In an ideal world for Ireland, they stay, obviously.

6."Donnacha Ryan is denied an IRFU contract due to his age yet Heaslip and Toner are handed deals until 2020. There’s no money to give Zebo an IRFU contract yet Leinster have two looseheads for example (Healy and McGrath) on central deals, while Rob Kearney also signed a three-year central deal back in 2015. The earth, moon and the stars were also moved to bring Jonny Sexton back from France. Don’t get us started on the likes of James Lowe and Scott Fardy being brought in. That’s an article in itself".

Response: i) Donnacha Ryan was not a Lion at the time of his renewal, and deemed relatively less important to the Irish team than Heaslup at the time (as well as having a much worse injury record; Heaslip's current back issue is remarkably the first serious injury of his career despite the fact that he is 33). There has been some criticism of the length of Heaslip's deal in particular, but the IRFU also received criticism before when their contract offers were too short, as it meant that the ugly, media-dominated spectre of contract negotiations came up far too regularly and they were pressured into giving another salary raise. Equally, some players demand 3-year contracts as a condition for signing any contract at all, and the IRFU choose to grant them for the sake of tying down a player who at the time of negotiations is a certain starter in the national team (without the long-term offer, these guys would leave). There are pros and cons for both ways of handling negotiations, but it is much less black and white than you make it out to be.
ii) The two Leinster looseheads are on central deals because they are both Test Lions class and the front row in particular is an area where you need depth, and where Irish teams have traditionally lacked it. Again, central contracts were available at the time of their negotiations, so they benefited from that.
iii) Lowe and Fardy's salaries are paid by Leinster. Munster have been allowed to bring in more NIQ signings than Leinster in recent years; NIQ players to represent Munster in the last three seasons are: Taute, Cloete, Grobler, Kleyn, Bleyendaal, Marshall, Deysel, Saili, Sagario, Botha, Van Den Heever vs. Lowe, Fardy, Nacewa, Gibson-Park, Te'o, Kirchner and Triggs for Leinster in the same period.

7."Now whether you agree with these deals or not, and we’re not saying we disagree with all of them, the question remains, is the same consideration and backing given to the other provinces? The answer is a resounding no. Whether you agree with that or not is tough. It’s a fact."

Response: Ulster have been backed to the hilt by the IRFU; Jordi Murphy has been encouraged by the IRFU to move North, and they've brought Marty Moore back from England, and Cooney in from Ulster. They have gotten permission and funding for the best-paid Irish NIQ player ever in Charles Piutau, and have two South African international back-rowers (Deysel and Coetzee) as well as having had two South African international second rows in recent seasons (Van Der Merwe, Mueller). Not to mention Schalk Van Der Merwe, the new prop, and other big money guys like Pienaar, Afoa and Lealiafano in recent seasons. Look at the Leinster guys in their first team and academy like Timoney, Alan O'Connor, Dave Shanahan, etc.

8."The worst part is the other provinces actually need that little bit of extra help due to the population and money that’s in Leinster, when what’s happening is quite the opposite."

Response: They're more than getting that little bit of extra help, and there's not necessarily anything wrong with that. Beyond that, it's their responsibility to sort their academy systems out, which aren't good enough at the moment. Also, the 'support' from the IRFU for the other provinces is (sometimes) coming at Leinster's expense in the form of player drain. Be grateful.

9."This may seem like I’m being completely anti-Leinster, but that is not the case. I’ve always been a huge fan of Leinster rugby, its players, its culture and its fans. But there’s a horrible side to it that comes out at times, and its mainly because of the IRFU and the media, and the influence they carry."

Response: Putting in a little disclaimer that you're not anti-Leinster in the middle of an anti-Leinster diatribe means nothing. I've already outlined how the media are by and large hugely up Munster's ass, so don't know what you're getting at there. The IRFU are not necessarily biased towards Munster, but they're certainly not biased towards Leinster (Nucifora is pushing for more of our best young players to move provinces).

[simonokeeffe]

Ok I know its joe.ie but saying IRFU offer of 280k for Stander is insulting is a bit much, plus provincial deal of 260k he was on is pretty damn good for a provincial deal

Plus youd imagine theyd offer 350k plus add ons as a final offer and it will be taken

Did I imagine it or is joe.ie part owned by one of the Munster coaching staff??

You didnt imagine it
Flannery was/is an original owner/investor

[riocard911]

Oh dear. I'm going to take that article apart point by point.

1: "Donnacha Ryan won’t be missed by Ireland. We’ve got plenty of other players to come in. Simon Zebo won’t be missed by Ireland. We’re well stocked in the back three. Munster will miss Peter O’Mahony and CJ Stander. Ireland won’t.

Believe it or not I’ve come across these statements on a number of occasions from deluded fans and pundits, and quite frankly, I’m beginning to get sick and tired of it. This feeling that players outside of Leinster are easily replaced within the Irish set-up is a steaming pile of biased, elitist, ignorant nonsense that is going to destroy Irish Rugby."

Response: There was widespread gnashing of teeth when Ryan left. Re.Zebo and O'Mahony, I don't think anyone is questioning their quality or that they will be badly missed by Munster, but Ireland have a lot of depth in their positions. They're very good players where we as a nation are lucky enough to have other very good players, hence they are not indispensable. In an ideal world they would remain in Ireland for the sake of our depth, of course, but French money and (maybe) lack of loyalty comes into play. Trotting out a tired line about Leinster rugby being elitist is clichéd and simply inaccurate.

2: "It’s unfair to tar everyone in Leinster with the same brush, but unfortunately it’s getting to stage where the deluded have overtaken the realists. And this goes for fans as well as pundits, journalists etc. And of course, the IRFU."

Response: Have you performed a statistical analysis to show that the 'deluded' have now overtaken the 'realists'? Probably not. Bizarre claim. The media is and always has been massively pro-Munster and quite snide about Leinster (Cummiskey, Kiely, O'Sullivan, the bald fella in the Irish Times, the whole Indo, etc), so I don't know what you're getting at there. There has been mass outrage at the departure of Munster players in the Irish media (and mainly silence re.Marty Moore and Madigan leaving Leinster) so don't know what you're getting at there.

3. "Leinster are the be all and end all of Irish Rugby as far as they are concerned, but when any of us based outside the capital moan, we’re told we’re talking complete nonsense.

Face it, anything that comes out of Dublin will always be favoured above the rest of the country. It’s the capital after all. It’s where our government offices are, it’s where the media is based, it’s where the IRFU are based, hell even World Rugby are in Dublin."

Response: Is this is the same IRFU that gave Munster extra help with the funding for the redevelopment of Thomond Park that Leinster did not get for the RDS? The same IRFU that have permitted Munster more NIQ players than Leinster in the last number of seasons? (Including bending the rules by allowing ' medical jokers' like Taute stay longer). The same IRFU that actively encourage Leinster's talented young players to move to other provinces. The more general stuff about Dublin says more about the chip on your shoulder/inferiority complex than anything rugby related so we won't go there.

4."This has always been the case, and will continue to do so, and for good reason most of the time to be fair. But when it starts to have a serious knock on effect like it is beginning to have with Munster, something needs to be done.

The IRFU didn’t back Donnacha Ryan, either did the media, or the Leinster fans. The same thing happened with Simon Zebo (albeit to a lesser extent) and now it’s beginning to happen to Peter O’Mahony and CJ Stander".

Response: The IRFU didn't back Donnacha Ryan because they had cut the number of central contracts available back to 13-14 from over 20, in response to financial pressures. Simon Zebo was offered a big-money central contract and turned it down. Peter O'Mahony has been offered a central contract, we'll see what happens. The IRFU had a choice between offering O'Mahony or Stander the available central contract and correctly chose O'Mahony; nonetheless they are reported to be offering to top up Stander's provincial contract, ultimately making the offer worth around 280k per year, which is hardly shoddy.

5."These players are and were undervalued both contract wise by the IRFU and ability and influence wise by Leinster-based fans, pundits and journalists. Do you really believe Donnacha Ryan and Simon Zebo wouldn’t have started in November if they were available for selection? Do you really think Jamie Heaslip, Rhys Ruddock or Jack Conan etc. are better than the Lions duo of O’Mahony or Stander right now? Come on. Be truthful to yourself.

If Ireland want to compete at the highest level they need their best players, and this nonsense that O’Mahony or Stander will not be missed and can be simply replaced by one of Leinster’s many back-rows is laughable."

Response: i) Again, the media have been going mad about all the Munster players leaving/thinking about leaving. Look at Thornley and Luke Fitzgerald recently for two thorough Leinstermen who have been totally anti-IRFU in all of this.
ii) D.Ryan would have been a 50-50 call with Toner to start. His departure was definitely a loss for Ireland, but not an insurmountable loss, which I think was the point of most of the commentary. Zebo would have had a good chance of starting, yes.
iii) O'Mahony hasn't been playing well for a while now, while Ruddock has hit serious form and captained Ireland several times. O'Mahony is probably still slightly ahead of him but the gap is narrowing all the time. Pretty much exactly the same situation with the Stander-Conan battle for selection. Heaslip is a two-time Lion and if he can get fit and firing again, will be on a similar level to O'Mahony and Stander, albeit a different type of player.
iii) Few people have been saying they won't be missed. But based on the talent we have in their positions, their loss can be mitigated reasonably well (from an Ireland perspective, not I admit from a Munster perspective). In an ideal world for Ireland, they stay, obviously.

6."Donnacha Ryan is denied an IRFU contract due to his age yet Heaslip and Toner are handed deals until 2020. There’s no money to give Zebo an IRFU contract yet Leinster have two looseheads for example (Healy and McGrath) on central deals, while Rob Kearney also signed a three-year central deal back in 2015. The earth, moon and the stars were also moved to bring Jonny Sexton back from France. Don’t get us started on the likes of James Lowe and Scott Fardy being brought in. That’s an article in itself".

Response: i) Donnacha Ryan was not a Lion at the time of his renewal, and deemed relatively less important to the Irish team than Heaslup at the time (as well as having a much worse injury record; Heaslip's current back issue is remarkably the first serious injury of his career despite the fact that he is 33). There has been some criticism of the length of Heaslip's deal in particular, but the IRFU also received criticism before when their contract offers were too short, as it meant that the ugly, media-dominated spectre of contract negotiations came up far too regularly and they were pressured into giving another salary raise. Equally, some players demand 3-year contracts as a condition for signing any contract at all, and the IRFU choose to grant them for the sake of tying down a player who at the time of negotiations is a certain starter in the national team (without the long-term offer, these guys would leave). There are pros and cons for both ways of handling negotiations, but it is much less black and white than you make it out to be.
ii) The two Leinster looseheads are on central deals because they are both Test Lions class and the front row in particular is an area where you need depth, and where Irish teams have traditionally lacked it. Again, central contracts were available at the time of their negotiations, so they benefited from that.
iii) Lowe and Fardy's salaries are paid by Leinster. Munster have been allowed to bring in more NIQ signings than Leinster in recent years; NIQ players to represent Munster in the last three seasons are: Taute, Cloete, Grobler, Kleyn, Bleyendaal, Marshall, Deysel, Saili, Sagario, Botha, Van Den Heever vs. Lowe, Fardy, Nacewa, Gibson-Park, Te'o, Kirchner and Triggs for Leinster in the same period.

7."Now whether you agree with these deals or not, and we’re not saying we disagree with all of them, the question remains, is the same consideration and backing given to the other provinces? The answer is a resounding no. Whether you agree with that or not is tough. It’s a fact."

Response: Ulster have been backed to the hilt by the IRFU; Jordi Murphy has been encouraged by the IRFU to move North, and they've brought Marty Moore back from England, and Cooney in from Ulster. They have gotten permission and funding for the best-paid Irish NIQ player ever in Charles Piutau, and have two South African international back-rowers (Deysel and Coetzee) as well as having had two South African international second rows in recent seasons (Van Der Merwe, Mueller). Not to mention Schalk Van Der Merwe, the new prop, and other big money guys like Pienaar, Afoa and Lealiafano in recent seasons. Look at the Leinster guys in their first team and academy like Timoney, Alan O'Connor, Dave Shanahan, etc.

8."The worst part is the other provinces actually need that little bit of extra help due to the population and money that’s in Leinster, when what’s happening is quite the opposite."

Response: They're more than getting that little bit of extra help, and there's not necessarily anything wrong with that. Beyond that, it's their responsibility to sort their academy systems out, which aren't good enough at the moment. Also, the 'support' from the IRFU for the other provinces is (sometimes) coming at Leinster's expense in the form of player drain. Be grateful.

9."This may seem like I’m being completely anti-Leinster, but that is not the case. I’ve always been a huge fan of Leinster rugby, its players, its culture and its fans. But there’s a horrible side to it that comes out at times, and its mainly because of the IRFU and the media, and the influence they carry."

Response: Putting in a little disclaimer that you're not anti-Leinster in the middle of an anti-Leinster diatribe means nothing. I've already outlined how the media are by and large hugely up Munster's ass, so don't know what you're getting at there. The IRFU are not necessarily biased towards Munster, but they're certainly not biased towards Leinster (Nucifora is pushing for more of our best young players to move provinces).

Fantastic response, Neiliog. That said, it definitely isn't in Leinster's or Ireland's or the Pro 14's interest if Munster experiences a dramatic loss of frontline players and the once mighty champions of Europe are reduced to a feeder club for our English and French rivals with their sugar daddy backers. Such a scenario unfortunately threatens due to the disparity in wages paid in the three leagues.

I read a lot of mention by the individuals involved and by commentators such as the Darce, that the Zebos and O'Mahoneys of this world need to prepare themselves and their families financially for the post-rugby environment and this is why they would take the bigger offers abroad. I wonder could this attraction be alleviated by IRUPA and the IRFU getting their heads together and setting up some type of formal system, whereby former Irish rugby professionals can get placements in companies, loans at good rates to set up their own firms etc., etc. If there some kind of a set up like that, it might lessen these guys' financial insecurities and increase the IRFU's ability to keep them within the Irish system.

[suisse]

Only got around to listening to WNR there. I normally don't mind EOS but what's his issue with James Lowe? Like the other provinces, Leinster are allowed to sign a certain number of foreign players. In fact, they always have fewer. Any player that comes in will take the place of an Irish player. It doesn't matter what position. If he's unhappy with Lowe, where else should be look? Hooker? What about Tracey and Cronin? Another second row? A 10 to overtake Byrne and Joey? Unless Eddie believes that Leinster should not be permitted to have any foreign players.

What does Lowe's age have to do with it? He hasn't landed a longer contract because he's 25. The IRFU or Leinster could just no rehire him like anyone else.

[suisse]

I've never heard of rugbylad or whatever it is called. Just briefly glanced over neiliog's response after briefly reading the article in question. This is not a serious website and he's not a credible journalist. He really doesn't deserve a response of that magnitude.

The whinging about media, self importance and the fans. Who cares. When he suggested this would "destroy Irish rugby", it became very clear he is a moron and a fool. He can say whatever he likes, but he doesn't have to be respected. I bet May 2009 is still an incredibly sore topic for him. Incredibly sore.

[OTT]

I think he is pretty level, chip on both shoulders.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

Only got around to listening to WNR there. I normally don't mind EOS but what's his issue with James Lowe? Like the other provinces, Leinster are allowed to sign a certain number of foreign players. In fact, they always have fewer. Any player that comes in will take the place of an Irish player. It doesn't matter what position. If he's unhappy with Lowe, where else should be look? Hooker? What about Tracey and Cronin? Another second row? A 10 to overtake Byrne and Joey? Unless Eddie believes that Leinster should not be permitted to have any foreign players.

What does Lowe's age have to do with it? He hasn't landed a longer contract because he's 25. The IRFU or Leinster could just no rehire him like anyone else.

Thought he had a point about competition and age (because Lowe will qualify for Ireland so is unlikely to leave at the end of his contract) but he ignored the fact that we might lose players at the end of the season and, more importantly, he made a colossal c~*k up that nobody called him up on in regard to what he brings to the table that will help other players and I reckon he may have copped it as he was talking but decided to ignore it...namely that Isa didn't have many All Black caps either and would have been pretty much the same age as Lowe when he arrived

[neiliog93]

I've never heard of rugbylad or whatever it is called. Just briefly glanced over neiliog's response after briefly reading the article in question. This is not a serious website and he's not a credible journalist. He really doesn't deserve a response of that magnitude.

The whinging about media, self importance and the fans. Who cares. When he suggested this would "destroy Irish rugby", it became very clear he is a moron and a fool. He can say whatever he likes, but he doesn't have to be respected. I bet May 2009 is still an incredibly sore topic for him. Incredibly sore.

Fair enough but I saw that it had over 1,000 shares!

[hugonaut]

http://rugbylad.ie/the-deluded-leinster ... s-to-stop/

Enjoy.

Amazing article - the Pulitzer is on the way!

[paddyor]

Ok I know its joe.ie but saying IRFU offer of 280k for Stander is insulting is a bit much, plus provincial deal of 260k he was on is pretty damn good for a provincial deal

Plus youd imagine theyd offer 350k plus add ons as a final offer and it will be taken

Did I imagine it or is joe.ie part owned by one of the Munster coaching staff??

I think Flannery or Sheehan had something to do with it.

[Edna Kenny]

http://rugbylad.ie/the-deluded-leinster ... s-to-stop/

Enjoy.

Another beaut today:

"When you’ve got guys like Simon Zebo being left go, you wonder could the Lowe money not have went his way in order to try and retain him? The same can almost be said for Scott Fardy. Should that money have went to Donnacha Ryan?"

Maybe have a whip around at the Aviva to help keep Stander and POM. There could be a half time presentation with one of the big novelty cheques on Stephen's day in Thomond.

In fairness good point on Ryan, if he had just been allowed to move to Leinster, Fardy wouldn't have been needed

[fourthirtythree]

Should all the money spent on furriners by the IRFU on behalf of Munster not been used for those purposes instead?

Questions need answering.

[CiaranIrl]

Honestly, stop giving that shite airtime. What is it, some idiot's blog or something? Badly written gibberish.

[simonokeeffe]

Cummiskey with a hat trick today

Ulster interested in TOH but makes sure to raise spectre of Ludik playing fullback for Ireland

Despite being raised in Wales and playing for Irish sides since he was 17 Marmion may have been close to moving to the land of his birth to play for Bristol and Saracens

And the journalism equivalent of a try started behind your own line....
Jake Heenan moving to Bristol means weve seen the last of him "in green of any hue"

[blockhead]

Cummiskey with a hat trick today

Ulster interested in TOH but makes sure to raise spectre of Ludik playing fullback for Ireland

Despite being raised in Wales and playing for Irish sides since he was 17 Marmion may have been close to moving to the land of his birth to play for Bristol and Saracens

And the journalism equivalent of a try started behind your own line....
Jake Heenan moving to Bristol means weve seen the last of him "in green of any hue"

Thank god he's banned from OTB.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

Not being on OTB just gives him more time to update his list of top 50 rugby players in Ireland and come up with reasons for how Leinster's fanbase should be given 50 lashes for paying through the nose to travel to support the team brilliantly.

[hugonaut]

"This may seem like I’m being completely anti-Leinster, but that is not the case. I’ve always been a huge fan of Leinster rugby, its players, its culture and its fans. But there’s a horrible side to it that comes out at times, and its mainly because of the IRFU and the media, and the influence they carry."

I had to read that again when I got home – what a whinge! So heartfelt and long and F*CKING BIZARRE. Amazing work. Somebody give this fella a YouTube channel!

[artaneboy]

Honestly, stop giving that shite airtime. What is it, some idiot's blog or something? Badly written gibberish.

+1


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[desperado]

After all that; did anyone actually read Dárce's article referenced by Xanthippe? The myopic bile on rugbylad is not worth wasting time reading let alone replying to; full of half truths and bias. GD does make a case for keeping POM here; and personally I agree with him.