A whiff of Cordite

[LeRouxIsPHat]

No. It was absolutely pointless bringing it up. Particularly in the context of a really competitive interpro series.

Baffled by that. You have no desire to see more competitive games than we saw last Saturday? I certainly do and it's hardly the first time it's been brought up, either by the press or by fans.

Could we fix it? Maybe, maybe not, but why not see if something could be done? Like I said above, is the last page or so not proof that it's an interesting topic?

[tomthefan]

I'm fully aware of why teams are weakened thanks.

My point was that I want competitive games, and there could be ways of achieving that.

Most spectators want to see full strength teams and that's also
what will attract ratings, broadcasters and sponsors.
The front line players can only play a maximum of 30-ish games a season.
Johnny Sexton will play 10 internationals and 6 HC pool games and 4 or so knock out
games a season. You're at 20 there already leaving only about 10 regular league games
a season that could be played by full strength teams. 10 may be unrealistically low but 22 games?
Most of those games would have to be missing the best players.
So Munster play one Ulster team this weekend, Leinster play another, next weekend.
There is no reliable form line to follow.
It's making for a real curates egg of a competition that's not very compelling for anyone.

[paddyor]

Well no, the point is that there are multiple facets to this so that's why it's worth discussing, which the last page or two have probably proved. Would I change things? Probably not because I can't think of a perfect solution to having poor games like that, and from a Leinster and Ireland fan POV we get to be successful off the back of it but that doesn't mean it's ideal.

I don't think the weakened teams/no relegation argument is a canard at all. It clearly benefits us hugely, but I think that shooting us down for it or changing the Champions Cup to negate our advantage is the wrong part. We have our house in order and they should look to do the same instead of just tearing ours down.

I meant my point. Why I went thru the reasons that the teams are weakened and that I think that is one of if not the most important facet of the conversation. I think there is an argument for shortening the season because at 33 rounds of league and Europe it's too long. But when you think about it, the obvious place to cutr the games from are during the AIs and 6N which just cuts development time for younger players. I'm not sure it would substantially change the calculus with regard to resting players either. It's not ideal but is the GP ideal? The Top14 seems to manage just fine sending out the Espoirs from time to time.

Ah it was. They were right about automatic qualification and historical seeding(though they might change their tune on that next season) and to a lesser extent about Connacht getting in on the back of Leinsters success. Though it should be noted that having to qualify hasn't really changed the irish teams participating as it was suggested it would. Avoiding relegation was basically a matter of being better than Aironi/Zebre, which in 2 seasons meant winning 3 games. Relegation wasn't going to make that team better.

Ring-fencing the GP is an idea that's been around for a long time. It didn't just dawn on them that the Championship isn't fit for purpose as a 2nd tier a la the ProD2. Remember they tried to block London Welshs promotion? IIRC they were doing that while making the argument about relegation. It is a disadvantage to them and probably does impact how they pick their teams and how they play, but you're not going to convince me that they actually cared about it. It was a talking point that dove tailed nicely with their argument re qualification.

[tomthefan]

Designate games as either A or B games.
Games would be clearly advertised as A or B so the public would be in no doubt and they'd not be
buying a pig in a poke as at present.
In a 20 game schedule each team would have 5 home A games and 5 away A games , 5 home B games and 5 away B games.
One game against every other team each season would be an A game, the other would be a B game.
One season it would be the home game, the next it would be the away one.
Double the points for A games, so 8 points for a win 2 points for a try bonus, etc.
There would be a very strong incentive for teams to field strong teams for A games.
These games would be the showpiece for the league and the broadcasters would have a better
idea which games to feature in prime slots.

[Oldschool]

Tbf the game on Saturday was pretty sh!t. The defence for COB's try summed it up, it was a non event.

Granted, but they shouldn't be running down the league every opportunity they get. There's a degree of negativeness in media coverage of Irish rugby that's hard to fathom.

Don't disagree with that but don't think that questioning the selection policy is a bad thing. I hate seeing weakened sides and it leads to things like the talk about the Champions Cup being reduced. Look I know it's great for us because we have an amazing academy (and Munster because they can get a good look at our players) but I didn't give a toss about the Ulster game because I knew they'd be sending down a weak side and that it wouldn't be competitive no matter who we put out.

I'll never forget that Daire O'Brien clown saying "well I suppose we have to talk about Connacht" on ATH a few years ago after they had discussed the other provinces in detail. That kind of thing grinds my gears, but the selection point is a legitimate one.

Selection is always going to be an issue.
Even top soccer teams have to "rotate" their players.
It's better to rotate and be proactive about player health than just flog players until they get injured.
Ulster travelled to Leinster with a weakened teams for two reasons, one Paddy Power gave them a very good indication of who the likely winners were going to be and two, still in the hunt for a QF place in the HEC, they rightly so prioritized the Racing game.
Teams in all leagues face the same decisions all the time.

[Oldschool]

Yeah I agree to a certain extent, you can get some disappointing selections for the away sides. For Leinster, I think a lot of regulars like seeing the new guys and how they develop, it's part of the fun in the long run.

+1

[Oldschool]

He can't have been that highly rated, they didn't offer him an academy slot initially - it was only after doing well in the JWRC that he was brought in.

Sometimes guys develop later or they need lots of gametime to hit their stride - but thats no good to a club like Leinster though. If you aren't ready for European Rugby when your time in the academy is up, sayonara, there are lots of other guys in your group who will be. In his case his peers were Ringrose and O'Loughlin!

MOC and highly rated does not compute, as pointed out already "MOC, the gift that keeps on giving"

[yellabelly1961]

Yeah I agree to a certain extent, you can get some disappointing selections for the away sides. For Leinster, I think a lot of regulars like seeing the new guys and how they develop, it's part of the fun in the long run.

+1

Agreed! I will always go to the Leinster games, whoever is selected.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

I meant my point. Why I went thru the reasons that the teams are weakened and that I think that is one of if not the most important facet of the conversation. I think there is an argument for shortening the season because at 33 rounds of league and Europe it's too long. But when you think about it, the obvious place to cutr the games from are during the AIs and 6N which just cuts development time for younger players. I'm not sure it would substantially change the calculus with regard to resting players either. It's not ideal but is the GP ideal? The Top14 seems to manage just fine sending out the Espoirs from time to time.

Again, that's fine, but the point is that there are alternatives so it was worth being discussed on OTB, and if the conversation leads back to the status quo being the best option then so be it.
Ah it was. They were right about automatic qualification and historical seeding(though they might change their tune on that next season) and to a lesser extent about Connacht getting in on the back of Leinsters success. Though it should be noted that having to qualify hasn't really changed the irish teams participating as it was suggested it would. Avoiding relegation was basically a matter of being better than Aironi/Zebre, which in 2 seasons meant winning 3 games. Relegation wasn't going to make that team better.

Ring-fencing the GP is an idea that's been around for a long time. It didn't just dawn on them that the Championship isn't fit for purpose as a 2nd tier a la the ProD2. Remember they tried to block London Welshs promotion? IIRC they were doing that while making the argument about relegation. It is a disadvantage to them and probably does impact how they pick their teams and how they play, but you're not going to convince me that they actually cared about it. It was a talking point that dove tailed nicely with their argument re qualification.

Not really sure what you're arguing here, no relegation for us is an advantage because it helps us develop players and styles of play, and hurts the GP teams in the opposite way. Is that true? Yes. Should we be affected by their attempts to even things up? Absolutely not, totally disagree with them attempting to do so. So I'm not backing them up, but it's a factor they need to address, among others.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

Yeah I agree to a certain extent, you can get some disappointing selections for the away sides. For Leinster, I think a lot of regulars like seeing the new guys and how they develop, it's part of the fun in the long run.

+1

Agreed! I will always go to the Leinster games, whoever is selected.

People really seem to be missing my point on this. I'm not saying I don't want to see Leinster's second string (because it's excellent), but I don't want to see teams put in pathetic performances like Ulster did last weekend. In other words, I don't want to see Ulster's second string in the RDS, I'd go to Donnybrook for that. That may not have been exactly what OTB were on about (still haven't heard the whole thing) but I just don't want non competitive games.

[Oldschool]

Don't disagree with that but don't think that questioning the selection policy is a bad thing. I hate seeing weakened sides and it leads to things like the talk about the Champions Cup being reduced. Look I know it's great for us because we have an amazing academy (and Munster because they can get a good look at our players) but I didn't give a toss about the Ulster game because I knew they'd be sending down a weak side and that it wouldn't be competitive no matter who we put out.

The Pro14 supplies the bulk of players to 4 national sides. For the sake of simplicity lets say that squads are 42 players and 12 squads which gives a total of 504 senior players to supply test training squads of c50(the England Pro Squad is 50) for 4 teams. With players playing abroad that's probably between 170-190. A little under 120 will definitely not be available for matches etc. which is 7-9 weeks of the season. Thats before you factor in injuries. Squad development is mandatory especially if you have a team stacked with internationals e.g Leinster, Glasgow, Ospreys(once had 14 selected to start for wales). Getting your most senior team on the pitch at every turn didn't work for MOC.

If you look at the Scottish teams where the player drain is more acute with there being only 2 teams it's something that Cockerill seems to be struggling with. He seems to just bung together whoever is left with a few academy lads ad hocIf you contrast that with how Townsend used to mix and match throughout the year to build his squad. The Weegie fans call it the Tonnie Tombola but if drill down into the numbers you'll probably find he's working to a plan to get the players starts/mins etc. It's really stood to Glasgow.

Ulster are rebuilding, he's really cleared out a lot of playersso that team probably is the best they could field given the player management rules. That's the bulk of the side that will play during the 6 nations and those are all must win games. I'd imagine McFarland was hoping for a better performance. The point being I think there's more to it than he sent down a team to get slaughtered. Their season will probably come down to the last 3 games Glasgow (A), Edinburgh(A) and Leinster (H). They need a min of 30 points from 8 games(40pts) to make the play-offs and the weakened squad he sent out will feature quite a bit.

Interesting post.
Based on the form of the other teams in Conference B to date, another 22 points might be enough to get a seat on the HEC bus.
I've ignored home/away ratios and remaining match schedule.
Obviously Leinster are not part of the above comments.

[Oldschool]

People really seem to be missing my point on this. I'm not saying I don't want to see Leinster's second string (because it's excellent), but I don't want to see teams put in pathetic performances like Ulster did last weekend. In other words, I don't want to see Ulster's second string in the RDS, I'd go to Donnybrook for that. That may not have been exactly what OTB were on about (still haven't heard the whole thing) but I just don't want non competitive games.

It's a fair point but given where Ulster are at the moment on the development ladder it's almost unavoidable that situations like this will arise. Added to that is the fact that Leinster seconds are probably the best coached back up squad in the Pro14.
Also Ulster's game against Racing at the weekend is season defining so they made a very pragmatic (and correct) decision to prioritize this game.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

It's not unavoidable though, a tweak of the fixture list could help. Maybe throw in a week off in between rounds 4 and 5 of Europe. Maybe have a rule where you need to play a certain number of games in the group stage to be able to play in the knockouts. Maybe get rid of the SA teams.

All those suggestions could be argued against, but the idea that nothing can change doesn't make sense to me.

[Oldschool]

It's not unavoidable though, a tweak of the fixture list could help. Maybe throw in a week off in between rounds 4 and 5 of Europe. Maybe have a rule where you need to play a certain number of games in the group stage to be able to play in the knockouts. Maybe get rid of the SA teams.

All those suggestions could be argued against, but the idea that nothing can change doesn't make sense to me.

You shouldn't tweak fixture lists just because one or two teams are in transition. It has to be a long term approach.
However built into any game, scheduled just before the final two rounds of the HEC, is the risk of a mismatch.
If Ulster had no chance of a QF spot in the HEC we might have seen a completely different Ulster team in the RDS.
It's always sensible to review things but decisions have to take the long term view.
The media aren't interested in long term, anything that will give them their 30 second sound bite is what matters to them.

[Ruckedtobits]

Correct. McFarland is the first Ulster Coach in almost a decade who seems to have an eye for the future. A close review of the game against Leinster suggests that at least four, and maybe as many as six of his 'kids' have the potential to play at Pro14 level for a good few Seasons.

Add in the young guys who have already jumped to his regular Senior Squad and it appears he has already produced seven new faces for Ulster fans to encourage. That's a very respectable start in under 6 months.

[fourthirtythree]

No. It was absolutely pointless bringing it up. Particularly in the context of a really competitive interpro series.

Baffled by that. You have no desire to see more competitive games than we saw last Saturday? I certainly do and it's hardly the first time it's been brought up, either by the press or by fans.

Could we fix it? Maybe, maybe not, but why not see if something could be done? Like I said above, is the last page or so not proof that it's an interesting topic?

It's not a problem. The interpros were super competitive and we got well beaten with a strong team. Ulster don't have enough to compete against a team like Leinster every week and husbanded their resources to suit their development. It's the epitome of not a problem for the sold out match.

And PRLs propaganda is utterly uninteresting, it starts from the position of justifying whatever they want to justify

The only reason they still have relegation us that stakeholders are currently relegated. According to Brian Moore on the Tory graph they are looking at a conference aystem to get around that.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

If myself and Joe Molloy are the only two people who follow the Pro14 and don't want to see sh!t games like that then fair enough.

[paddyor]

If myself and Joe Molloy are the only two people who follow the Pro14 and don't want to see sh!t games like that then fair enough.

There's no sh!t games ion the GP? Who could miss the winner takes 8th decider between these 2 poorly coached and not improving teams.

[hugonaut]

I heard a few minutes of OTB the other day and was surprised by ROC saying that nobody knew about Boyle before pre season and the same for Tom Farrell before he started performing for Connacht. I know that neither were household names and that this place isn't exactly representative of the average fan but I would have thought they were pretty well known.

I bet Murray Kinsella would have known about them anyway!

Farrell was recommended to Pat Lam / Carolan by one of the Leinster backroom. He was always rated in Leinster but just needed to get his S&C up to speed to be a very good Pro. As always, there were a bunch of mid-field players around and Henshaw was on his way.

Very often, this problem occurs because the Head Coach is looking at who will fill the main slots, not the back-up as well. Farrell would probably have been retained under current management but, guess who was head Coach?

MOC: the gift that keeps on giving.

We brought too many centres into the Academy: 6 in two years. Farrell [b.1993], Tom Daly [b.1993] and Steve Crosbie [b.1993] came in to the system in 2013-14, and Ringrose [b. 1995], O'Loughin [b. 1994] and Harry Brewer [b.1995] in 2014-15. There was always going to be wastage with that number of guys vying for gametime.

We could have done the same this year at second row, lots of candidates. Cormac Daly would have got in in other years, as would Charlie Ryan [who may get in this year]. I think we learned a little bit from that situation with all the centres that you have to have a plan for each player in your set-up, otherwise it's not worth taking them in.

My recollection was that we gave Farrell an academy deal on the back of his [very good] performances in the JWC, when it looked as though Munster were going to give him an academy spot. Munster probably would have f*cked it up anyway, but we didn't do much better in this case. We never gave him a minute. Glad to see that he has been able to power through, well done to him.

[ronk]

I had Crosbie down as an outhalf mostly. Brewer was another failed centre conversion from backrow.

2 are important for Leinster, 2 are in Connacht and decent players. That's a solid return, really good.

We didnt reach for any players who werent up to standard aside from the failed conversions expt. and a problem position was addressed. Losing BOD and D'Arcy was a huge problem.

Daly's injuries held him back mostly, but also Isa converting to centre. Farrell probably needed Connacht development/gametime.

For academy intake you add 4 years to the ages of the squad and evaluate. (3 in academy and 1 development). We will need multiple locks.

If the intake is highly talented you worry about gametime in 4 years. If it's marginal and there's depth already then their chances are weaker anyway.

Locks who play 6 are increasingly common. The game may change again but with no 6s in the academy it provides another path for dynamic locks.