A whiff of Cordite

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Re: A whiff of Cordite

Postby Twist » January 21st, 2020, 2:25 pm

jimbobjoe wrote:
locho wrote:I listened to the Episode when the story broke and he was in complete denial there was any wrongdoing, the rest of them were aghast at his position and called him out on it. He kept referring to a quote from the report trying to justify this position. Tensions were certainly high between himself and Dallaglio to the point where they didn't appear together on the POD for the next 2-3 weeks. Now could've been scheduling but was nice to think they'd had a proper falling out over it.


Which epidose/date was that? I'd like to have a listen :mullet 1:


25 November last

Sample quote; "There is no-one that's ever played (for Saracens) against Exeter who wouldn't be there if Nigel Wray ha come in 3 million below the salary cap. Exeter lost on the field of play. No-one was there because they were being paid more."
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Re: A whiff of Cordite

Postby locho » January 21st, 2020, 2:36 pm

jimbobjoe wrote:
Which epidose/date was that? I'd like to have a listen :mullet 1:


25th November "Don't mention the "S" word
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Re: A whiff of Cordite

Postby jimbobjoe » January 21st, 2020, 2:41 pm

Thanks folks!
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Re: A whiff of Cordite

Postby locho » January 21st, 2020, 2:41 pm

TrapperChamonix wrote:
locho wrote:I was listening to The Ruck podcast yesterday and Lawrence Dallaglio (Currently a director of Wasps) was saying that the current rules of Premiership salary cap state that a team being promoted from the championship must be compliant with the cap in the season they were promoted but also in the preceding season. If that rule is upheld then it's possible that Saracens may have to spend 2 years in the Championship as we know that they are not compliant this season!!

As a side note, Stephen Jones is usually a contributor to the podcast but hasn't been on it in about 3 weeks!


I've seen this mentioned on Twitter by a few individuals. I heard it referenced obtusely on TheRugbyPod this morning. If true, it is the biggest bombshell of all. If true, I can't understand why this isn't the biggest story out there. There is no way you hold on to any players for 2 years!!! Anyone got a definite source on this?


Googled it and found this.

https://d2cx26qpfwuhvu.cloudfront.net/p ... b-2019.pdf

15 Promoted Club

15.1 A Promoted Club shall, within 28 days of receiving confirmation of promotion to the Gallagher Premiership from PRL, comply with the requirements of Regulation 4.4 by providing to the Salary Cap Manager the documents listed in Regulation 4.4.
15.2A Promoted Club shall provide copies of its Declaration for the 2018-19 Salary Cap Year and its Certification for the 2017-18 Salary Cap Year as required under Regulations 4.2 and 4.3.

I think the pertinent line is actually in regulation 4.3 which refers to the year before promotion e.g. this season. The whole regulation is about providing documentation around the cap but the last line suggest that you can be non-compliant as long as you advise PRL?? Tenous but might be a get out of jail card.

"(iv)a statement that the Club has or has not complied with the Senior and Academy Ceilings for that Salary Cap Year."
Last edited by locho on January 21st, 2020, 3:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A whiff of Cordite

Postby Peg Leg » January 21st, 2020, 2:59 pm

Twist wrote:Trust the Germans to have a word for that!

They can't stick together unless they're willing to eat enormous paycuts. And if they're willing to do that then why didn't they do it this year and avoid relegation? I'm not sure Brendan Venter understands the root of the problem here!

There's a chance of some ill feeling amongst the English players during the Six Nations. I'd say Eddie will be well on top of that, but if he isn't it'll only add to the desperation of da wolfpack(tm) to get back playing in black in March.

By the way, I've no idea whether this is true but I keep seeing people say on twitter & facebook that teams must be within the premiership salary cap for two years prior to earning promotion.

If it's measured at the end of the season, technically they still can be.
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Re: A whiff of Cordite

Postby Mickado » January 21st, 2020, 3:09 pm

locho wrote:
TrapperChamonix wrote:
locho wrote:I was listening to The Ruck podcast yesterday and Lawrence Dallaglio (Currently a director of Wasps) was saying that the current rules of Premiership salary cap state that a team being promoted from the championship must be compliant with the cap in the season they were promoted but also in the preceding season. If that rule is upheld then it's possible that Saracens may have to spend 2 years in the Championship as we know that they are not compliant this season!!

As a side note, Stephen Jones is usually a contributor to the podcast but hasn't been on it in about 3 weeks!


I've seen this mentioned on Twitter by a few individuals. I heard it referenced obtusely on TheRugbyPod this morning. If true, it is the biggest bombshell of all. If true, I can't understand why this isn't the biggest story out there. There is no way you hold on to any players for 2 years!!! Anyone got a definite source on this?


Googled it and found this.

https://d2cx26qpfwuhvu.cloudfront.net/p ... b-2019.pdf

15 Promoted Club

15.1 A Promoted Club shall, within 28 days of receiving confirmation of promotion to the Gallagher Premiership from PRL, comply with the requirements of Regulation 4.4 by providing to the Salary Cap Manager the documents listed in Regulation 4.4.
15.2A Promoted Club shall provide copies of its Declaration for the 2018-19 Salary Cap Year and its Certification for the 2017-18 Salary Cap Year as required under Regulations 4.2 and 4.3.

I think the pertinent line is actually in regulation 4.3 which refers to the year before promotion e.g. this season. The whole regulation is about providing documentation around the cap but the last line suggest that you can be non-compliant as long as you advise PRL?? Tenous but might be a get out of jail card.

"(iv)a statement that the Club has or has not complied with the Senior and Academy Ceilings for that Salary Cap Year."


I was listening to some podcast or other (possibly "the ruck") and this came up, they said that by accepting relegation they might be exploiting a loophole this year, i.e. yes we're accepting relegation but we're technically not over the cap now, so that they can bounce back up to the prem the year after next.
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Re: A whiff of Cordite

Postby locho » January 21st, 2020, 3:31 pm

Mickado wrote:I was listening to some podcast or other (possibly "the ruck") and this came up, they said that by accepting relegation they might be exploiting a loophole this year, i.e. yes we're accepting relegation but we're technically not over the cap now, so that they can bounce back up to the prem the year after next.


It was "The Ruck" I was listening too also, and I'm not so sure if they were claiming that, Dallaglio was certainly of the view that this could be an issue. I can't see how accepting relegation means that they are now certified for this season. They still are technically over the cap this year, relegation is just the punishment for being over. By the regulations in this document, coming back up you have to be certified for 2 seasons, i guess the question is, that by accepting relegation for being over the cap are the PRL effectively certifying Saracens for this season??

Clear and Transparent procedures are certainly not what come to mind in this whole mess!
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Re: A whiff of Cordite

Postby Ruckedtobits » January 21st, 2020, 3:36 pm

Only Sarries don't have any 'Certification' because they refused to open their books to the "independent auditor".

Saracens provided the PRL Chief Executives office with their "Declaration", a document signed by two Club Directors stating that they knew and understood the PRL rules and confirming that the Club was not in breach of the Salary Cap provisions. The fun began when their Auditors stated that they were not in a position to confirm that statement as they had not had sight of all relevant information.
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Re: A whiff of Cordite

Postby locho » January 21st, 2020, 4:24 pm

Ruckedtobits wrote:Only Sarries don't have any 'Certification' because they refused to open their books to the "independent auditor".

Saracens provided the PRL Chief Executives office with their "Declaration", a document signed by two Club Directors stating that they knew and understood the PRL rules and confirming that the Club was not in breach of the Salary Cap provisions. The fun began when their Auditors stated that they were not in a position to confirm that statement as they had not had sight of all relevant information.


RTB I certainly go along with that, just trying to play devil's advocate to see if there is any loophole for them to get back up in one season. I'm not a solicitor but for me I think the current regulations should mean they will have to spend 2 years in championship. The only potential saving grace for them could be the PRL just circumventing their own procedures, by updating the salary cap regulations next year but that will cause another sh!t show with the rest of the clubs.
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Re: A whiff of Cordite

Postby Peg Leg » January 21st, 2020, 4:51 pm

locho wrote:
Ruckedtobits wrote:Only Sarries don't have any 'Certification' because they refused to open their books to the "independent auditor".

Saracens provided the PRL Chief Executives office with their "Declaration", a document signed by two Club Directors stating that they knew and understood the PRL rules and confirming that the Club was not in breach of the Salary Cap provisions. The fun began when their Auditors stated that they were not in a position to confirm that statement as they had not had sight of all relevant information.


RTB I certainly go along with that, just trying to play devil's advocate to see if there is any loophole for them to get back up in one season. I'm not a solicitor but for me I think the current regulations should mean they will have to spend 2 years in championship. The only potential saving grace for them could be the PRL just circumventing their own procedures, by updating the salary cap regulations next year but that will cause another sh!t show with the rest of the clubs.

Do they not still have 5 months to make it under the cap?
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Re: A whiff of Cordite

Postby locho » January 21st, 2020, 5:04 pm

Peg Leg wrote:Do they not still have 5 months to make it under the cap?


They've accepted that they can't, hence why they are getting relegated (a punishment for not meeting the cap in this season). They were not able to offload enough players to meet the cap, and couldn't terminate as any termination packages would count towards the cap.
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Re: A whiff of Cordite

Postby Peg Leg » January 21st, 2020, 5:10 pm

locho wrote:
Peg Leg wrote:Do they not still have 5 months to make it under the cap?


They've accepted that they can't, hence why they are getting relegated (a punishment for not meeting the cap in this season). They were not able to offload enough players to meet the cap, and couldn't terminate as any termination packages would count towards the cap.


Ah, thank you.
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Re: A whiff of Cordite

Postby TerenureJim » January 22nd, 2020, 1:15 am

Peg Leg wrote:
locho wrote:
Peg Leg wrote:Do they not still have 5 months to make it under the cap?


They've accepted that they can't, hence why they are getting relegated (a punishment for not meeting the cap in this season). They were not able to offload enough players to meet the cap, and couldn't terminate as any termination packages would count towards the cap.


Ah, thank you.


Have they accepted it or just said it's unlikely but instead of opening books up to audit we'll take relegation please and thanks.

I'd have serious reservations about the state of those books given the fact they jumped. Could they be beyond PRL issues and into company law/tax law issues that may have come to light.

Some people saying don't blame players or McCall but honestly how could you sit in that changing room looking around and not wonder at how so many talented players could be assembled without something fishy going on wage wise. There must have been suspicions post 2015 and yet expensive experienced players kept joining with Sarries outbidding other clubs.

Titles should have been stripped and questions asked in terms of adjusting the Euro record as their qualification is tainted in terms of top six finish to qualify any year cap breached.
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Re: A whiff of Cordite

Postby Dave Cahill » January 22nd, 2020, 1:55 am

It's a bit like being done for drunk driving at the side of the road then the guards giving you back the keys to drive yourself home.
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Re: A whiff of Cordite

Postby TrapperChamonix » January 22nd, 2020, 10:57 am

TerenureJim wrote:
Have they accepted it or just said it's unlikely but instead of opening books up to audit we'll take relegation please and thanks.

I'd have serious reservations about the state of those books given the fact they jumped. Could they be beyond PRL issues and into company law/tax law issues that may have come to light.

Some people saying don't blame players or McCall but honestly how could you sit in that changing room looking around and not wonder at how so many talented players could be assembled without something fishy going on wage wise. There must have been suspicions post 2015 and yet expensive experienced players kept joining with Sarries outbidding other clubs.

Titles should have been stripped and questions asked in terms of adjusting the Euro record as their qualification is tainted in terms of top six finish to qualify any year cap breached.


According to Brendan Venter on TheRugbyPOD, they choose relegation because to get under the salary cap this year would force players out and that wasn't the Saracens way. I'm not sure if he still has an official position in Saracens, but claims to have been taking to Ed Griffiths about the situation.
I wonder if they choose relegation, before they had checked the criteria for getting promoted? It would be a terrible oversight but you can only imagine the maelstrom they are operating in and it could be they have overlooked it.
I can't see how any player would stay in those circumstances. Effectively you would not be able to compete for 3 years in either The Premiership (including this year) or the HCup.
In other circumstances you could imagine a deal being done with the other clubs whereby Saracens would spend 1 year in the Championship and then be let back up. But at every turn they seem to be alienating the very people they need to negotiate with.
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Re: A whiff of Cordite

Postby ronk » January 22nd, 2020, 11:22 am

They have to choose between players and the other clubs. Their ethos was everyone hates us and that’s ok but we are tight. If they have to lose their stars they will be able to build loyalty back if they suffered but did right by the players.

They’ve said that anyone who wants to leave can and they aren’t forcing players out.
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Re: A whiff of Cordite

Postby jimbobjoe » January 22nd, 2020, 11:24 am

locho wrote:
jimbobjoe wrote:
Which epidose/date was that? I'd like to have a listen :mullet 1:


25th November "Don't mention the "S" word


Had a listen this morning - well worth it!
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Re: A whiff of Cordite

Postby locho » January 22nd, 2020, 11:59 am

jimbobjoe wrote:
locho wrote:
jimbobjoe wrote:
Which epidose/date was that? I'd like to have a listen :mullet 1:


25th November "Don't mention the "S" word


Had a listen this morning - well worth it!


Ye, his stance looks even worse now since all the recent revelations!
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Re: A whiff of Cordite

Postby jimbobjoe » January 22nd, 2020, 12:06 pm

locho wrote:Ye, his stance looks even worse now since all the recent revelations!


He's really dug himself a hole. His ego and dismissive attitude to nearly everyone else is almost fascinating. I wonder how much time he has left on the clock as a full time employed journalist. Not that he ever had much but his integrity is completely out the window at this stage.
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Re: A whiff of Cordite

Postby Twist » January 22nd, 2020, 4:29 pm

The IRFU really should have pursued the matter of his scurrilous allegations about the World Cup
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