Rumour Mill

[neiliog93]

I don't think it's necessarily bigoted though. Is he bigoted because he thinks that heterosexuals who sleep around will go to Hell unless they repent? (also part of conservative Christian theology on sexuality). Maybe he's a bit dumb, or old-fashioned, or whatever. I seriously doubt he hates gay people. The belief is more that any sex outside of heterosexual marriage is a sin, and sins that are not repented for lead to Hell.

I don't think Leinster have a duty to cultivate a 'progressive' environment. They shouldn't be endorsing any political stance. If a guy shows up, trains well, plays well, and is professional, that's all you can ask for. Leave political, social and religious views out of it. Sanctioning people for disagreeing with the 'modern' consensus just strengthens the (often absurd) conservative narrative that they are increasingly persecuted.

[Peg Leg]

I wouldnt call it sanctioning. I'd call it an altogether avoidable distracting situation.

[ChrisUppy]

It was a joke

My bad, fairplayche

[artaneboy]

I don't see any murky waters in not wanting outspoken bigots representing the team I support.

Well aside from the policing of the people’s unappealing behaviour/ views- which is a dark and deep in itself- there’s plenty of murky waters in getting agreement on what exactly we all feel are unacceptable views.

If you were Nigel Wray and able to dictate the club’s signings- then you’d have have some hope.

But enough; he’s s not coming here...


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[rooster]

I'm sorry, but he said very publicly that he believes homosexuals should burn in hell. How would you feel if he said the same thing about black or jewish people? Religion is no excuse.

He can FRO and I wouldn't want him anywhere near Leinster.

A heap of the church goers and politicians up here would say similar to him so he would be a hero in some circles.
Not so sure that there is any truth in rumour though that he is heading this way as it may have stemmed from comments that with our ongoing problems sure we might as well have a few more for people to complain about.

[artaneboy]

I don't think it's necessarily bigoted though. Is he bigoted because he thinks that heterosexuals who sleep around will go to Hell unless they repent? (also part of conservative Christian theology on sexuality). Maybe he's a bit dumb, or old-fashioned, or whatever. I seriously doubt he hates gay people. The belief is more that any sex outside of heterosexual marriage is a sin, and sins that are not repented for lead to Hell.

I don't think Leinster have a duty to cultivate a 'progressive' environment. They shouldn't be endorsing any political stance. If a guy shows up, trains well, plays well, and is professional, that's all you can ask for. Leave political, social and religious views out of it. Sanctioning people for disagreeing with the 'modern' consensus just strengthens the (often absurd) conservative narrative that they are increasingly persecuted.

+1

[molloyjh]

I don't think it's necessarily bigoted though. Is he bigoted because he thinks that heterosexuals who sleep around will go to Hell unless they repent? (also part of conservative Christian theology on sexuality). Maybe he's a bit dumb, or old-fashioned, or whatever. I seriously doubt he hates gay people. The belief is more that any sex outside of heterosexual marriage is a sin, and sins that are not repented for lead to Hell.

I don't think Leinster have a duty to cultivate a 'progressive' environment. They shouldn't be endorsing any political stance. If a guy shows up, trains well, plays well, and is professional, that's all you can ask for. Leave political, social and religious views out of it. Sanctioning people for disagreeing with the 'modern' consensus just strengthens the (often absurd) conservative narrative that they are increasingly persecuted.

He didn't just say it was a sin and to repent. He also said "turn to God". I'm not sure what that could mean other than to stop being gay. I'm sorry now, but you're grasping a hold of technicalities. He thinks homosexuality is wrong. He has come out to say as much. He's a bigot. Religious beliefs don't change that. It just makes them bigoted religious beliefs. I wouldn't want a vocal bigot on my team and I don't want kids here (or anywhere) thinking it is okay to denounce homosexuality. The idea that someone who wants to prevent or stop people from being who they naturally are is the one being persecuted is laughable. In this day and age we all ought to know better.

[Dave Cahill]

He's a homophobe, a hypocrite and a bigot.

[ChrisUppy]

I don't think it's necessarily bigoted though. Is he bigoted because he thinks that heterosexuals who sleep around will go to Hell unless they repent? (also part of conservative Christian theology on sexuality). Maybe he's a bit dumb, or old-fashioned, or whatever. I seriously doubt he hates gay people. The belief is more that any sex outside of heterosexual marriage is a sin, and sins that are not repented for lead to Hell.

I don't think Leinster have a duty to cultivate a 'progressive' environment. They shouldn't be endorsing any political stance. If a guy shows up, trains well, plays well, and is professional, that's all you can ask for. Leave political, social and religious views out of it. Sanctioning people for disagreeing with the 'modern' consensus just strengthens the (often absurd) conservative narrative that they are increasingly persecuted.

Funny, I don't recall any word from him on heteros who sleep around.

Nor have I heard him calling out those with tattoos. Nor have have I heard him warning of a rich man standing less of a chance of entering heaven than a camel from passing through the eye of a needle (that one may be a bit inconvenient to a well payed pro athelete like himself). Nor extolling the biblical right to own slaves (that one comes from the same book as the verses on homosexuality btw.).

Yet he finds the time to take a stance previously against gay marriage and now warning they are destined for hell. I wonder why that issue sticks out to him particularly? It couldn't be because he is bigoted I guess... I'm sure he'll get around to the rest...

[ChrisUppy]

I'm sorry, but he said very publicly that he believes homosexuals should burn in hell. How would you feel if he said the same thing about black or jewish people? Religion is no excuse.

He can FRO and I wouldn't want him anywhere near Leinster.

A heap of the church goers and politicians up here would say similar to him so he would be a hero in some circles.
Not so sure that there is any truth in rumour though that he is heading this way as it may have stemmed from comments that with our ongoing problems sure we might as well have a few more for people to complain about.

Even setting aside the homophobic stuff, he would be a ridiculous signing for Ulster. Just as Piutau is on his way out after what (I thought) was widely accepted within Ulster as a misguided luxury signing and a misuse of funds. Who would even make the call on this signing without a head coach in place?

[fourthirtythree]

I'm sorry, but he said very publicly that he believes homosexuals should burn in hell. How would you feel if he said the same thing about black or jewish people? Religion is no excuse.

He can FRO and I wouldn't want him anywhere near Leinster.

A heap of the church goers and politicians up here would say similar to him so he would be a hero in some circles.
Not so sure that there is any truth in rumour though that he is heading this way as it may have stemmed from comments that with our ongoing problems sure we might as well have a few more for people to complain about.

Even setting aside the homophobic stuff, he would be a ridiculous signing for Ulster. Just as Piutau is on his way out after what (I thought) was widely accepted within Ulster as a misguided luxury signing and a misuse of funds. Who would even make the call on this signing without a head coach in place?

Is he an outhalf or a forward? If not, he's not the guy that Ulster should be spending the cheddar they could get a few players for.

Also, it's possible that the Ulster kit is made from mixed fabrics which is a no no according to Leviticus 19:19. The new testament (Paul chiefly) places homosexuality on a par with adultery, and greed among other sins. So maybe he'd rock up at Ulster for a reduced salary if he's so holy.

[Oldschool]

One of the best extracts from the bible.
"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone"

[rooster]

I'm sorry, but he said very publicly that he believes homosexuals should burn in hell. How would you feel if he said the same thing about black or jewish people? Religion is no excuse.

He can FRO and I wouldn't want him anywhere near Leinster.

A heap of the church goers and politicians up here would say similar to him so he would be a hero in some circles.
Not so sure that there is any truth in rumour though that he is heading this way as it may have stemmed from comments that with our ongoing problems sure we might as well have a few more for people to complain about.

Even setting aside the homophobic stuff, he would be a ridiculous signing for Ulster. Just as Piutau is on his way out after what (I thought) was widely accepted within Ulster as a misguided luxury signing and a misuse of funds. Who would even make the call on this signing without a head coach in place?

Totally agree and that's why I think the rumour started as a joke.

[The Doc]

A heap of the church goers and politicians up here would say similar to him so he would be a hero in some circles.

Indeed - and that exact absolute self-righteous, "shun the stranger", "tradition over progress" attitude (not you - them) is exactly what needs to be changed in Ulster Rugby in my opinion. The last thing they need is more of it.

And I include on and off field events in that

[artaneboy]

He's a homophobe, a hypocrite and a bigot.

Why a hypocrite? And are we making that a ground for barring now too? If we do, there will be very few that can pass through that 'eye of a needle'...

[artaneboy]

I don't think it's necessarily bigoted though. Is he bigoted because he thinks that heterosexuals who sleep around will go to Hell unless they repent? (also part of conservative Christian theology on sexuality). Maybe he's a bit dumb, or old-fashioned, or whatever. I seriously doubt he hates gay people. The belief is more that any sex outside of heterosexual marriage is a sin, and sins that are not repented for lead to Hell.

I don't think Leinster have a duty to cultivate a 'progressive' environment. They shouldn't be endorsing any political stance. If a guy shows up, trains well, plays well, and is professional, that's all you can ask for. Leave political, social and religious views out of it. Sanctioning people for disagreeing with the 'modern' consensus just strengthens the (often absurd) conservative narrative that they are increasingly persecuted.

Funny, I don't recall any word from him on heteros who sleep around.

Nor have I heard him calling out those with tattoos. Nor have have I heard him warning of a rich man standing less of a chance of entering heaven than a camel from passing through the eye of a needle (that one may be a bit inconvenient to a well payed pro athelete like himself). Nor extolling the biblical right to own slaves (that one comes from the same book as the verses on homosexuality btw.).

Yet he finds the time to take a stance previously against gay marriage and now warning they are destined for hell. I wonder why that issue sticks out to him particularly? It couldn't be because he is bigoted I guess... I'm sure he'll get around to the rest...

Yeah- most of what you say there is probably true- if a bit irrelevant to the point. The issue is not his consistency in following the imagined dictates of his faith- or even his religion at all- as there are- and have been a number of very religious players who have been members of Ulster- and other clubs too, no doubt.

The issue is whether we should shun or bar players because we don't like their views on such issues. I'm not personally religious and I find his views both offensive and silly- but is that a reason bar him? Where does this stop then? So (no names- no pack drill) if some of the well known names who do play and have played for Ulster recently hold similar views- or are 'suspected'- by virtue of their expressed faith, of having similar views, should we demand they make a statement on the issue? Take it a step further- should every player be asked to state their beliefs and prejudices on these issues? It's a rabbit hole- and the only half way fair way is to demand that players don't get into it at all.

Oh- and BTW, the idea that Falou is the wrong player for Ulster is total rubbish. You could argue they need another four or five more players, and he'd be too costly on that basis- but, 'not right'... c'mon!

[olaf the fat]

Yeah- most of what you say there is probably true- if a bit irrelevant to the point. The issue is not his consistency in following the imagined dictates of his faith- or even his religion at all- as there are- and have been a number of very religious players who have been members of Ulster- and other clubs too, no doubt.

The issue is whether we should shun or bar players because we don't like their views on such issues. I'm not personally religious and I find his views both offensive and silly- but is that a reason bar him? Where does this stop then? So (no names- no pack drill) if some of the well known names who do play and have played for Ulster recently hold similar views- or are 'suspected'- by virtue of their expressed faith, of having similar views, should we demand they make a statement on the issue? Take it a step further- should every player be asked to state their beliefs and prejudices on these issues? It's a rabbit hole- and the only half way fair way is to demand that players don't get into it at all.

Oh- and BTW, the idea that Falou is the wrong player for Ulster is total rubbish. You could argue they need another four or five more players, and he'd be too costly on that basis- but, 'not right'... c'mon!

Its kind of missing the issue that he used his profile to make public commentary on such views. It stops when personal views are kept personal

[neiliog93]

'Repenting' in this context means stop having a certain type of sex, not stop having those feelings; it's about the act rather than the person, that's how I understand it. 'No adultery' doesn't mean don't feel temptation, it means don't act on it. Same case here. Now, why a celestial being with questionable evidence for its existence would care how we choose to behave sexually is another question...

I don't know why he has tattoos, I know a bunch of the laws in Leviticus are ceremonial/cultural rules made by and for the Israelites to preserve their culture as they were mixing with Canaanites and other groups at the time, and that's why the vast majority of Christians don't follow those rules now (e.g not eating shellfish, washing yourself a certain way, not having tattoos etc). Jesus also 'fulfils the law' in the New Testament and replaces it with a 'new covenant' so the old laws do not apply. He never mentions homosexuality but Paul does condemn it (also new testament). I'm obviously no theologian but it is an amateur interest of mine.

Btw, let me clarify I don't have a horse in the race, I personally don't agree with his stance at all. Echoing Artaneboy's comments, the main issue here is about enforcing certain opinions on a workplace.

[Dave Cahill]

He's a homophobe, a hypocrite and a bigot.

Why a hypocrite? And are we making that a ground for barring now too? If we do, there will be very few that can pass through that 'eye of a needle'...

He has tattoos, he shaves the side of his head, he shaves his beard. And I'd say if I went through all the levitical laws, never mind the 613 commandments, I'd find a few more breaches. But he only seems to care about one.

I never said he should be barred for being a hypocrite btw, just that he was one.

[Peg Leg]

I don't think it's necessarily bigoted though. Is he bigoted because he thinks that heterosexuals who sleep around will go to Hell unless they repent? (also part of conservative Christian theology on sexuality). Maybe he's a bit dumb, or old-fashioned, or whatever. I seriously doubt he hates gay people. The belief is more that any sex outside of heterosexual marriage is a sin, and sins that are not repented for lead to Hell.

I don't think Leinster have a duty to cultivate a 'progressive' environment. They shouldn't be endorsing any political stance. If a guy shows up, trains well, plays well, and is professional, that's all you can ask for. Leave political, social and religious views out of it. Sanctioning people for disagreeing with the 'modern' consensus just strengthens the (often absurd) conservative narrative that they are increasingly persecuted.

Funny, I don't recall any word from him on heteros who sleep around.

Nor have I heard him calling out those with tattoos. Nor have have I heard him warning of a rich man standing less of a chance of entering heaven than a camel from passing through the eye of a needle (that one may be a bit inconvenient to a well payed pro athelete like himself). Nor extolling the biblical right to own slaves (that one comes from the same book as the verses on homosexuality btw.).

Yet he finds the time to take a stance previously against gay marriage and now warning they are destined for hell. I wonder why that issue sticks out to him particularly? It couldn't be because he is bigoted I guess... I'm sure he'll get around to the rest...

Yeah- most of what you say there is probably true- if a bit irrelevant to the point. The issue is not his consistency in following the imagined dictates of his faith- or even his religion at all- as there are- and have been a number of very religious players who have been members of Ulster- and other clubs too, no doubt.

The issue is whether we should shun or bar players because we don't like their views on such issues. I'm not personally religious and I find his views both offensive and silly- but is that a reason bar him? Where does this stop then? So (no names- no pack drill) if some of the well known names who do play and have played for Ulster recently hold similar views- or are 'suspected'- by virtue of their expressed faith, of having similar views, should we demand they make a statement on the issue? Take it a step further- should every player be asked to state their beliefs and prejudices on these issues? It's a rabbit hole- and the only half way fair way is to demand that players don't get into it at all.

Oh- and BTW, the idea that Falou is the wrong player for Ulster is total rubbish. You could argue they need another four or five more players, and he'd be too costly on that basis- but, 'not right'... c'mon!

The answer to "where does it stop" is always, somewhere.
You're being deliberately obtuse, the reason for the ire in this case is his vocalisation of his opinion. Everyone is entitled to their own views, preaching them is where I take issue. So no, we don't need a McCarthy type court for signings, we need to avoid vocal extremists.