allezlesverres wrote:Hi guys. Long time lurker and Ulster fan. Joined today just to weigh in on this topic. I totally agree with the sense of frustration Leinster fans have at talent moving to other provinces. All the points made so far in this debate have been sensible and valid. I just wanted to add one more point into the mix which hasn't been mentioned yet (I think). Leinster as a province has an embarrassment of riches in terms of rugby playing schools and hence rugby playing youngsters. Assuming an equal spread of talent (that is to say out of every 200 players say 1 will be Lions standard, 4 will be international standard or whatever) then Leinster will naturally have a disproportionate spread of the talent. Add into that the fact that the excellent Leinster schools probably develop that talent better than schools in the other provinces, and you will end up with more skewed figures (more out of those 200 will make it in Leinster versus other provinces).
So you end up in a situation where Leinster has first pick on the huge bulk of rugby talent in Ireland. There is of course nothing wrong with that. That is one of the primary reasons Leinster has for so long been such a dominant force (and will continue to be). There will however always be a number of players who are stuck in a queue who won't reach their full potential because they are not getting elite game time (Nordi and Cooney being obvious examples, but take also O'Connor for example - he is playing now at a level he definitely wouldn't have reached had he stayed in Leinster).
If those players stay at Leinster they aren't developing into the best players they can and that harms the IRFU aim of a strong Ireland side. It also isn't really helping Leinster because long queues in each position mean the guys at the back aren't developing either. If it were ever to happen (and I strongly doubt it will) McGrath moving to Ulster would improve opportunities for your other two Looseheads who are fantastic prospects by any measure.
So to summarize, Leinster will always end up getting to pick their favourite 2 or 3 guys in each position (and statistically those will usually be the best 2 or 3 guys in that position in Ireland) but shouldn't be surprised much less outraged when the guys further down seek out new opportunities. (I know Jack doesn't fall into this category - being second/third choice at worst).
Finally, a footnote on the notion that player migration will damage the provincial nature of the game. I firmly disagree. If you try and maintain the argument that Nordi, Coons, O'Connor, Shanahan etc playing for Ulster takes away some of the frisson of the game, you are just wrong. All of those guys remember their roots but they respect the Jersey they chose and all give 100% when they put it on. In fact you could argue that them playing in white makes interpros v Leinster even more interesting. I am looking forward to seeing them (Nordi in particular) in Aviva on 30 March for Leinsters inevitable progression to the QF. See you guys there.
You're very welcome and good post! I'm not so sure it's about the numbers rather the structures. If memory serves Ulster have about the same number of schools players that we do. Of course ulster were the dominent Irish team in the 1980's and were the first Irish team to win the European Cup. They had a very good academy system and were actually pretty prolific producers of Irish internationals for years until Longwell left.
We put in place a 10 year plan to develop players from mini's through to the senior team around 2006-7 when I started coaching mini rugby. Every year we got support from the branch to build blocks of skills, coaching and ways of playing. i remember us playing Munster clubs and some big lump would run through everyone to cheers from the sideline at UL Bohs or Garryowen. However, our kids had much better skills and used space better - they played better rugby. Eventually, the other kids caught up with the big lad physically and the big lad was just an average sized player with cr@p skills.
When my kids left club rugby to go to secondary school the building blocks continued with provincial coaches and professional schools coaches working together on skills, strength and conditioning, culture etc. Same thing happened at the clubs around the province, which is great as it gets us away from the old school tie mentality to developing players. School kids start to get picked up and targetted by the Academy in their mid teens and coached with a programme of work ons. Basically everybody who came through mini, club and schools rugby learnt to play the Leinster way. It's not an accident that players come in and slot into the system or that their skills are so good.
The issue now is that this is not an overnight fix, you need 10 years so this will go on for a while to come I'd imagine. It's fine to spread the talent and like many for me it's Ireland first. However, i can't accept a situation where Leinster are penalised to an extent where we become much less competitive. Losing Jordi was a big blow but fine, we have players in that position of equal or better ability, losing a Lions prop is a massive blow for us to be honest - Jack on form is a huge player......but nothing like losing Carbery. Though i wish it were different, Carbery is a much much more talented player than Byrne and he might be a better full back than Kearney. Losing someone like him might just be the difference between winning a European cup and being a semi-finalist.