Rumour Mill

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Re: Rumour Mill

Postby mildlyinterested » February 27th, 2019, 4:31 pm

heno wrote:There's a sliding scale here. One extreme is the IRFU do nothing and leinster end up having the majority of the "top" players on the island and are the only competitive team. The other extreme is the IRFU meddle incessantly and critically weaken leinster and destroy the public relationship with the provinces etc etc. But surely the optimum is the IRFU act but cautiously. Leinster continue to dominate the pro14 and win Europe every so often. The player pool is maximised around the island and team Ireland benefits.
Are the IRFU not reasonable in attempting for the optimum?
Surely it can only be judged by an observed drop in leinsters success rate?

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are leinster stronger this year or last? we'be been weakened for the benefit of the other provinces at that has been reflected in our results in europe.

we will be weakened even further next season.

only so long can leinster remain where it is in terms of top european team, while being weakened year on year.. I don't see Sarries or Racing being weakened in fact they are strengthening..
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Re: Rumour Mill

Postby promsandwich » February 27th, 2019, 4:53 pm

As an UIster fan I would clearly welcome the addition of Jack McGrath to our ranks. He would undoubtedly improve our squad. I will, however, only believe it when I see it. Barely a season goes by now when a Leinster player who is not deemed to be first choice is linked to a.n. other province. I can understand the frustration that Leinster fans would feel if such above took place although you clearly have a couple of younger players at loosehead who would benefit from any such move. I can imagine the IRFU would prefer to have Healy and McGrath starting at different provinces at European cup level while also being able to blood the next Leinster academy product at the same time at that level. While this apparent IRFU redistribution of talent is understandably frustrating I think it merits consideration that the reason for such movements and promotion of talent is the time when Ireland only really had Hayes as a tighthead and thereafter only had Ross. If the purpose of the policy was to increase the quality of props available fo Ireland then that policy certainly has borne fruit. A similarl observation might be made about the benefit to Ireland of Carberry moving to Munster, particularly so when Madigan's move to Bristol(?) effectively removed him from consideration for Ireland.

The only other point I would add is that it has not always been one way traffic and I can think of a number of instances in the recent past where Leinster have been able to benefit from the interprovincial movement of talent - Isaac Boss, Ross, Henshaw, to name a few.

It is difficult for fans to accept. For example Ulster fans were delighted at the move of Jordi Murphy but at the same time are slightly concerned about becoming a Leinster 'B' team. On balance the conclusion is it is better to have talent from Leinster, deemed surplus to requirements either by Leinster or the IRFU, than for us to be Tom Kite.
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Re: Rumour Mill

Postby Flash Gordon » February 27th, 2019, 5:12 pm

promsandwich wrote:As an UIster fan I would clearly welcome the addition of Jack McGrath to our ranks. He would undoubtedly improve our squad. I will, however, only believe it when I see it. Barely a season goes by now when a Leinster player who is not deemed to be first choice is linked to a.n. other province. I can understand the frustration that Leinster fans would feel if such above took place although you clearly have a couple of younger players at loosehead who would benefit from any such move. I can imagine the IRFU would prefer to have Healy and McGrath starting at different provinces at European cup level while also being able to blood the next Leinster academy product at the same time at that level. While this apparent IRFU redistribution of talent is understandably frustrating I think it merits consideration that the reason for such movements and promotion of talent is the time when Ireland only really had Hayes as a tighthead and thereafter only had Ross. If the purpose of the policy was to increase the quality of props available fo Ireland then that policy certainly has borne fruit. A similarl observation might be made about the benefit to Ireland of Carberry moving to Munster, particularly so when Madigan's move to Bristol(?) effectively removed him from consideration for Ireland.

The only other point I would add is that it has not always been one way traffic and I can think of a number of instances in the recent past where Leinster have been able to benefit from the interprovincial movement of talent - Isaac Boss, Ross, Henshaw, to name a few.

It is difficult for fans to accept. For example Ulster fans were delighted at the move of Jordi Murphy but at the same time are slightly concerned about becoming a Leinster 'B' team. On balance the conclusion is it is better to have talent from Leinster, deemed surplus to requirements either by Leinster or the IRFU, than for us to be Tom Kite.


Ross came from Harlequins but you're right we have benefited occasionally with Henshaw and Cronin probably the two biggest impact imports from the West. I think we're just getting frustrated with the scale of things really, there are over 20 Leinster origin players in the Connacht academy and I think next year there will be 2 Leinster origin scrum halves at every other province.

It's always a tricky balance of course but when we are losing Irish internationals like McGrath, Murphy and Carbery we are becoming much less competitive. Our Ireland players disappear for long periods (which is fine of course, we want Ireland to be successful) and we ship injuries because of the intensity of International rugby. I think someone said it here earlier, I don't think we're as good as we were last season and there are 19 or 20 year old kids being wheeled out for the Pro 14 games.

Competition at the highest level is probably a better preparation for Ireland than game time. Porter and McGrath got game time against Zebre for example and it probably resulted in them not getting picked last weekend.
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Re: Rumour Mill

Postby Jonny tight lips » February 27th, 2019, 8:34 pm

promsandwich wrote:As an UIster fan I would clearly welcome the addition of Jack McGrath to our ranks. He would undoubtedly improve our squad. I will, however, only believe it when I see it. Barely a season goes by now when a Leinster player who is not deemed to be first choice is linked to a.n. other province. I can understand the frustration that Leinster fans would feel if such above took place although you clearly have a couple of younger players at loosehead who would benefit from any such move. I can imagine the IRFU would prefer to have Healy and McGrath starting at different provinces at European cup level while also being able to blood the next Leinster academy product at the same time at that level. While this apparent IRFU redistribution of talent is understandably frustrating I think it merits consideration that the reason for such movements and promotion of talent is the time when Ireland only really had Hayes as a tighthead and thereafter only had Ross. If the purpose of the policy was to increase the quality of props available fo Ireland then that policy certainly has borne fruit. A similarl observation might be made about the benefit to Ireland of Carberry moving to Munster, particularly so when Madigan's move to Bristol(?) effectively removed him from consideration for Ireland.

The only other point I would add is that it has not always been one way traffic and I can think of a number of instances in the recent past where Leinster have been able to benefit from the interprovincial movement of talent - Isaac Boss, Ross, Henshaw, to name a few.

It is difficult for fans to accept. For example Ulster fans were delighted at the move of Jordi Murphy but at the same time are slightly concerned about becoming a Leinster 'B' team. On balance the conclusion is it is better to have talent from Leinster, deemed surplus to requirements either by Leinster or the IRFU, than for us to be Tom Kite.



I think if the IRFU were looking long term the might realize that Ulster need to Focus on their academy and underage structures more than recruiting from other provinces and project players. There was only one ulsterman in the 23 for the first couple of under 20 six nations games and he was on the bench, that’s sad to see. If you have to bite the bullet and have a few shite years to rebuild so be it because your never gonna get to the top with the current system, you might stay respectable but you won’t win. The project player thing is gonna be reduced now the 5 year rule is coming in and by taking players from other provinces you won’t get the very best. Fix your problems and you get the best of what comes through.

From leinsters point of view if there are players who can’t get a look in and have been around a while like Jordi that’s fair enough but McGrath is a first 23 player who is needed by the province so this is hard to swallow. You said it’s not all one way traffic but in reality it is when you take into account of the volumes going the respective directions. At the moment we only have Cronin from Munster via Connacht (Robbie was born and raised in Westmeath although played for Connacht).
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Re: Rumour Mill

Postby ronk » February 28th, 2019, 1:14 am

LeRouxIsPHat wrote:I'll be gutted if it turns out I was wrong about this being nonsense. I don't get the timing of it at all, can see how it made sense a while back but not now even though Healy is clear first choice at this stage. Maybe being dropped for Toulouse was the catalyst? Maybe this is why we were allowed to keep Fardy? I think Mick Dawson should be putting his foot down about players moving mid contract, that really shouldn't be allowed to happen unless someone has been completely ostracised or it's a loan deal.

Just a thought but maybe the malaise with Ireland is down to this whole situation of players leaving Leinster/the uncertainty around their futures? Last season we had the best coaching setup, the competition for places last season was intense, and it felt like everyone was 100% focused on performing and winning trophies. That's a powerful combination and despite being a billion points ahead in the league I don't think anyone is as happy with our performances this season. IMO it felt like our first and second choice teams were closer in terms of experience and quality last season, whereas now it feels like there's the first team and then the young lads. Don't get me wrong, those young players are performing unbelievably well, but COB or Dave Kearney/Daly aren't going to be getting in ahead of Henshaw and Rob, whereas Isa and Joey could well have done. So potentially a drop off in competition for places and some minds wandering elsewhere which then has the knock on effect of players not being raring to go for Ireland. Just a thought, but aside from the NZ game (Italy were so bad in Chicago that I don't think it counts) we've been poor all season.


I think you're onto something. Player movement has brought the provincial politics back in a strong way. It seems that there's a lot more openly talking about moving to improve rather than playing better to get ahead.

Leinster have carried elite loosehead since Heinke van see Merwe and it was Joe who used them alternating. McGrath and Healy have successfully shared duties for a long time. The problems now are fixable without a move, and moving may divert away from the real issue (injury related form). Form has dropped before a move decision for a few players lately, we shouldn't underestimate how disruptive it is.

McGrath is already on Schminutes, he could play more if he was allowed, he doesn't need to move to get opportunities.

The RWC is weighing on team selection but it does feel like the big names are getting the big matches rather than being spread around so we're seeing more automatic 1st team-2nd team than next man up. It's harder for Leo to mix and match when guys are more sensitive to changes and pecking order.
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Re: Rumour Mill

Postby sunshiner1 » February 28th, 2019, 2:37 am

It could be down to McGrath simply wanting a change just like Donnacha Ryan did when he left Munster for France. People change and grow. McGrath might want a new challenge and to get out of his comfort zone. We always seem to talk about the players like their prisoners who have no say in the matter. Henshaw left even though there was howls of blood after him and Carberry did the same. Both did this because they thought it would be best for their professional careers. If McGrath wants to leave I'll be sorry to see him go but I won't be finger pointing at the IRFU saying 'You did this'.
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Re: Rumour Mill

Postby Jonny tight lips » February 28th, 2019, 7:52 am

sunshiner1 wrote:It could be down to McGrath simply wanting a change just like Donnacha Ryan did when he left Munster for France. People change and grow. McGrath might want a new challenge and to get out of his comfort zone. We always seem to talk about the players like their prisoners who have no say in the matter. Henshaw left even though there was howls of blood after him and Carberry did the same. Both did this because they thought it would be best for their professional careers. If McGrath wants to leave I'll be sorry to see him go but I won't be finger pointing at the IRFU saying 'You did this'.


Ryan wanted change in his pocket, I think Jack would be on the same money. Also he didn’t just leave in the middle of his contract. That’s two years in a row one of our players has just tore up their contract and went walkabouts.
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Re: Rumour Mill

Postby johng » February 28th, 2019, 8:16 am

Jack McGrath didn't have a Leinster contract.
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Re: Rumour Mill

Postby Laighin Break » February 28th, 2019, 8:59 am

A few people saying Jack would be leaving mid-contract, ROC's article says "The loosehead prop is understood to have another season remaining on his national contract", but according to mildly's post on April 24th:

http://forum.leinsterfans.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=24910&start=60

LH Prop
Cian Healy(30) - Signed central 3yr contract in 2016
Jack McGrath(28) - Signed central 3yr contract in 2016
Ed Byrne(24) - Signed 2yr contract in 2017
Peter Dooley(24) - Signed 3yr contract in 2016

Anyone know for certain?
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Re: Rumour Mill

Postby mildlyinterested » February 28th, 2019, 9:06 am

Laighin Break wrote:A few people saying Jack would be leaving mid-contract, ROC's article says "The loosehead prop is understood to have another season remaining on his national contract", but according to mildly's post on April 24th:

http://forum.leinsterfans.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=24910&start=60

LH Prop
Cian Healy(30) - Signed central 3yr contract in 2016
Jack McGrath(28) - Signed central 3yr contract in 2016
Ed Byrne(24) - Signed 2yr contract in 2017
Peter Dooley(24) - Signed 3yr contract in 2016

Anyone know for certain?


the last announced contract he got was in 2016, at that time it was unclear how long that contract was.

https://www.leinsterrugby.ie/leinster-r ... -signings/
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Re: Rumour Mill

Postby mildlyinterested » February 28th, 2019, 11:18 am

Cian Tracey

As reported by @RuaidhriOC yesterday - Jack McGrath is in talks with the IRFU and Ulster about a proposed move.

Leinster want McGrath to remain with the club but will not stand in his way if he pushes for the deal to go through.
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Re: Rumour Mill

Postby allezlesverres » February 28th, 2019, 11:38 am

Hi guys. Long time lurker and Ulster fan. Joined today just to weigh in on this topic. I totally agree with the sense of frustration Leinster fans have at talent moving to other provinces. All the points made so far in this debate have been sensible and valid. I just wanted to add one more point into the mix which hasn't been mentioned yet (I think). Leinster as a province has an embarrassment of riches in terms of rugby playing schools and hence rugby playing youngsters. Assuming an equal spread of talent (that is to say out of every 200 players say 1 will be Lions standard, 4 will be international standard or whatever) then Leinster will naturally have a disproportionate spread of the talent. Add into that the fact that the excellent Leinster schools probably develop that talent better than schools in the other provinces, and you will end up with more skewed figures (more out of those 200 will make it in Leinster versus other provinces).

So you end up in a situation where Leinster has first pick on the huge bulk of rugby talent in Ireland. There is of course nothing wrong with that. That is one of the primary reasons Leinster has for so long been such a dominant force (and will continue to be). There will however always be a number of players who are stuck in a queue who won't reach their full potential because they are not getting elite game time (Nordi and Cooney being obvious examples, but take also O'Connor for example - he is playing now at a level he definitely wouldn't have reached had he stayed in Leinster).

If those players stay at Leinster they aren't developing into the best players they can and that harms the IRFU aim of a strong Ireland side. It also isn't really helping Leinster because long queues in each position mean the guys at the back aren't developing either. If it were ever to happen (and I strongly doubt it will) McGrath moving to Ulster would improve opportunities for your other two Looseheads who are fantastic prospects by any measure.

So to summarize, Leinster will always end up getting to pick their favourite 2 or 3 guys in each position (and statistically those will usually be the best 2 or 3 guys in that position in Ireland) but shouldn't be surprised much less outraged when the guys further down seek out new opportunities. (I know Jack doesn't fall into this category - being second/third choice at worst).

Finally, a footnote on the notion that player migration will damage the provincial nature of the game. I firmly disagree. If you try and maintain the argument that Nordi, Coons, O'Connor, Shanahan etc playing for Ulster takes away some of the frisson of the game, you are just wrong. All of those guys remember their roots but they respect the Jersey they chose and all give 100% when they put it on. In fact you could argue that them playing in white makes interpros v Leinster even more interesting. I am looking forward to seeing them (Nordi in particular) in Aviva on 30 March for Leinsters inevitable progression to the QF. See you guys there.
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Re: Rumour Mill

Postby Laighin Break » February 28th, 2019, 12:00 pm

mildlyinterested wrote:
Laighin Break wrote:A few people saying Jack would be leaving mid-contract, ROC's article says "The loosehead prop is understood to have another season remaining on his national contract", but according to mildly's post on April 24th:

http://forum.leinsterfans.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=24910&start=60

LH Prop
Cian Healy(30) - Signed central 3yr contract in 2016
Jack McGrath(28) - Signed central 3yr contract in 2016
Ed Byrne(24) - Signed 2yr contract in 2017
Peter Dooley(24) - Signed 3yr contract in 2016

Anyone know for certain?


the last announced contract he got was in 2016, at that time it was unclear how long that contract was.

https://www.leinsterrugby.ie/leinster-r ... -signings/


Thanks Mildly. I think it's fair to assume a 3-year contract as a 4-year contract seems unlikely.
We also know that Henshaw, Healy and SOB's central contracts were 3 (or 3 and a bit) years so seems likely McGrath would have the same.
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Re: Rumour Mill

Postby Jonny tight lips » February 28th, 2019, 12:03 pm

johng wrote:Jack McGrath didn't have a Leinster contract.


The central contracts are tied to the province when they are signed. If he was to move to ulster he would need a new contract tied to them.
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Re: Rumour Mill

Postby RobbieRockBoy » February 28th, 2019, 12:07 pm

Cronin to Sarries anyone?
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Re: Rumour Mill

Postby mildlyinterested » February 28th, 2019, 12:08 pm

Laighin Break wrote:
mildlyinterested wrote:
Laighin Break wrote:A few people saying Jack would be leaving mid-contract, ROC's article says "The loosehead prop is understood to have another season remaining on his national contract", but according to mildly's post on April 24th:

http://forum.leinsterfans.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=24910&start=60

LH Prop
Cian Healy(30) - Signed central 3yr contract in 2016
Jack McGrath(28) - Signed central 3yr contract in 2016
Ed Byrne(24) - Signed 2yr contract in 2017
Peter Dooley(24) - Signed 3yr contract in 2016

Anyone know for certain?


the last announced contract he got was in 2016, at that time it was unclear how long that contract was.

https://www.leinsterrugby.ie/leinster-r ... -signings/


Thanks Mildly. I think it's fair to assume a 3-year contract as a 4-year contract seems unlikely.
We also know that Henshaw, Healy and SOB's central contracts were 3 (or 3 and a bit) years so seems likely McGrath would have the same.



I saw talk that he signed a 1 year deal with leinster then transitioned to a central deal with ireland, that could have been a 3 year deal, I dunno.
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Re: Rumour Mill

Postby arsebiscuits1 » February 28th, 2019, 12:23 pm

Jonny tight lips wrote:
johng wrote:Jack McGrath didn't have a Leinster contract.


The central contracts are tied to the province when they are signed. If he was to move to ulster he would need a new contract tied to them.


Are you privy to these contracts?

That seems like a reach to fit a narrative
He's gotten awfully fond of that brick
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Re: Rumour Mill

Postby deco » February 28th, 2019, 12:36 pm

arsebiscuits1 wrote:
Jonny tight lips wrote:
johng wrote:Jack McGrath didn't have a Leinster contract.


The central contracts are tied to the province when they are signed. If he was to move to ulster he would need a new contract tied to them.


Are you privy to these contracts?

That seems like a reach to fit a narrative


He probably isn't but JohnG probably isn't either, so both points carry the same validity: none.

Likewise with your post which is strong on conjecture, but low on facts.
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Re: Rumour Mill

Postby johng » February 28th, 2019, 12:47 pm

We are all fitting this to our own narrative as I said yesterday.

One side is IRFU want to destroy Leinster, sweep them from the earth and enjoy listening to the lamentations of their women and children.

The other is The IRFU are just a caring mammy and daddy to all 4 provinces and if little Sean or little Sammy need a handout because they can't manage their affairs then they will help them out but they still love their big brother Hugo who is top of his class and doesn't need as much help.

Truth is normally somewhere in the middle.
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Re: Rumour Mill

Postby Jonny tight lips » February 28th, 2019, 1:01 pm

arsebiscuits1 wrote:
Jonny tight lips wrote:
johng wrote:Jack McGrath didn't have a Leinster contract.


The central contracts are tied to the province when they are signed. If he was to move to ulster he would need a new contract tied to them.


Are you privy to these contracts?

That seems like a reach to fit a narrative


They are announced that such and such signed a new deal with x province and Ireland

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.irishti ... 3fmode=amp There JS says “I am delighted to sign a new IRFU contract to continue to play for Leinster and Ireland”

All the announcements have similar wording and comments by the players

I’m of course working on the assumption that Sexton is privy to the contents of his own contract or maybe I’m just “reaching to fit a narrative” I’ll let you decide.
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