Sneak Peak - RDS Redevelopment Plans

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Re: Sneak Peak - RDS Redevelopment Plans

Postby Peg Leg » August 9th, 2018, 12:39 am

COYBIB wrote:Going on 10 years now since it was first mooted that Leinster would look to modernize the RDS as a permanent home. This thread is already over 5 years old. What an absolute tit they have made of the stadium situation. As well as Leinster is run, and it's by far the best run and most professional province in Ireland, ever since the fluffing of the opportunity to redevelop Donnybrook, it seems this is an issue Dawson and co., just can't get over. Even the plan to fully fund an RDS stadium with funds attracted by Leinster with zero ownership can't get over the line.

I get their reluctance to commit to any kind of financial burden, but as mentioned in the article "the direct spend by spectators at Leinster games at the RDS is listed as €1.9 million per match", that's a lot of money to hand over to the RDS every other week because we never had the balls or competency to sort it out ourselves. Given that it's been a decade since this process started, I'd say the current situation and facilities are a disgrace. Still sitting on scaffolding in either the rain or under a canopy, unless you have the luxury of sitting in a stand that was built roughly a decade before the commencement of world war II ....
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Re: Sneak Peak - RDS Redevelopment Plans

Postby MelbourneRebel » August 9th, 2018, 5:28 am

COYBIB wrote:Going on 10 years now since it was first mooted that Leinster would look to modernize the RDS as a permanent home. This thread is already over 5 years old. What an absolute tit they have made of the stadium situation. As well as Leinster is run, and it's by far the best run and most professional province in Ireland, ever since the fluffing of the opportunity to redevelop Donnybrook, it seems this is an issue Dawson and co., just can't get over. Even the plan to fully fund an RDS stadium with funds attracted by Leinster with zero ownership can't get over the line.

I get their reluctance to commit to any kind of financial burden, but as mentioned in the article "the direct spend by spectators at Leinster games at the RDS is listed as €1.9 million per match", that's a lot of money to hand over to the RDS every other week because we never had the balls or competency to sort it out ourselves. Given that it's been a decade since this process started, I'd say the current situation and facilities are a disgrace. Still sitting on scaffolding in either the rain or under a canopy, unless you have the luxury of sitting in a stand that was built roughly a decade before the commencement of world war II ....

Harsh. Circumstances and priorities changed a lot over the last decade and Leinster has a world class stadium at its disposal for the biggest games.
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Re: Sneak Peak - RDS Redevelopment Plans

Postby MelbourneRebel » August 9th, 2018, 5:28 am

Can anyone re-post images of the new stand?
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Re: Sneak Peak - RDS Redevelopment Plans

Postby BlueWheels » August 9th, 2018, 9:28 am

MelbourneRebel wrote:Can anyone re-post images of the new stand?



Or a link to the revised plans ?

Thanks
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Re: Sneak Peak - RDS Redevelopment Plans

Postby paddyor » August 9th, 2018, 10:51 am

COYBIB wrote:Going on 10 years now since it was first mooted that Leinster would look to modernize the RDS as a permanent home. This thread is already over 5 years old. What an absolute tit they have made of the stadium situation. As well as Leinster is run, and it's by far the best run and most professional province in Ireland, ever since the fluffing of the opportunity to redevelop Donnybrook, it seems this is an issue Dawson and co., just can't get over. Even the plan to fully fund an RDS stadium with funds attracted by Leinster with zero ownership can't get over the line.

I get their reluctance to commit to any kind of financial burden, but as mentioned in the article "the direct spend by spectators at Leinster games at the RDS is listed as €1.9 million per match", that's a lot of money to hand over to the RDS every other week because we never had the balls or competency to sort it out ourselves. Given that it's been a decade since this process started, I'd say the current situation and facilities are a disgrace. Still sitting on scaffolding in either the rain or under a canopy, unless you have the luxury of sitting in a stand that was built roughly a decade before the commencement of world war II ....

10 years would be 2008/9.

I'm not happy about this, but the issue is obviously funding and we're the tenant. Are we to fund it out of the playing budget? FOr an asset we won't even own?
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Re: Sneak Peak - RDS Redevelopment Plans

Postby Edna Kenny » August 9th, 2018, 11:04 am

Does anyone know what the €1.9m per match direct spend includes? At a (generous) average of 15k per game that is €126 per person per game. That's a lot of pints and Eddie Rockets.
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Re: Sneak Peak - RDS Redevelopment Plans

Postby arsebiscuits1 » August 9th, 2018, 11:07 am

Edna Kenny wrote:Does anyone know what the €1.9m per match direct spend includes? At a (generous) average of 15k per game that is €126 per person per game. That's a lot of pints and Eddie Rockets.


I doubt the corporate facilities would come cheap
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Re: Sneak Peak - RDS Redevelopment Plans

Postby paddyor » August 9th, 2018, 12:08 pm

Edna Kenny wrote:Does anyone know what the €1.9m per match direct spend includes? At a (generous) average of 15k per game that is €126 per person per game. That's a lot of pints and Eddie Rockets.

Lets see.

Ticket
Transport
Programme
Beverages
Food
Merchandise

I can't see it either. If I were to guess I'd say the Aviva games are doing a lot of the heavy lifting there.
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Re: Sneak Peak - RDS Redevelopment Plans

Postby R-Dog » August 9th, 2018, 12:47 pm

Here is a link to all the Planning application doc, drawings etc.

https://tinyurl.com/y7xqx7v4
or if that doesnt work;

http://www.dublincity.ie/swiftlg/apas/r ... ia.display

Application Number 3467/16
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Re: Sneak Peak - RDS Redevelopment Plans

Postby tomthefan » August 9th, 2018, 3:11 pm

At least the RDS as it is, has a lot of character. In America, the boston red sox's ground has limited capacity but the club
owners decided to live with that and work out some other way of increasing revenue rather than destroy the character of the place.
I believe that they have also now decided to go down the same route with Liverpool FC (which they also own).
Unless you are going to recreate Clermont's stadium I would be inclined to leave things largely as they are.
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Re: Sneak Peak - RDS Redevelopment Plans

Postby arsebiscuits1 » August 9th, 2018, 3:50 pm

tomthefan wrote:At least the RDS as it is, has a lot of character. In America, the boston red sox's ground has limited capacity but the club
owners decided to live with that and work out some other way of increasing revenue rather than destroy the character of the place.
I believe that they have also now decided to go down the same route with Liverpool FC (which they also own).
Unless you are going to recreate Clermont's stadium I would be inclined to leave things largely as they are.


I like a lot of things about the RDS. But the Anglesea stand is not one of them.

Leinster have been tenants there for a little over 10 years. Not really enough time to compare the character of it to Fenway Park or Anfield, both of which have over 100 years of History.

Leinster inherited an already old stadium. I'd much rather build it up and have the new one be the one that memories are forged in ha
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Re: Sneak Peak - RDS Redevelopment Plans

Postby MelbourneRebel » August 9th, 2018, 11:36 pm

tomthefan wrote:At least the RDS as it is, has a lot of character. In America, the boston red sox's ground has limited capacity but the club
owners decided to live with that and work out some other way of increasing revenue rather than destroy the character of the place.
I believe that they have also now decided to go down the same route with Liverpool FC (which they also own).
Unless you are going to recreate Clermont's stadium I would be inclined to leave things largely as they are.

Wasn't the Liverpool plan a cost-cutting exercise in the redevelopment?
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Re: Sneak Peak - RDS Redevelopment Plans

Postby hugonaut » August 10th, 2018, 12:24 am

paddyor wrote:
COYBIB wrote:Going on 10 years now since it was first mooted that Leinster would look to modernize the RDS as a permanent home. This thread is already over 5 years old. What an absolute tit they have made of the stadium situation. As well as Leinster is run, and it's by far the best run and most professional province in Ireland, ever since the fluffing of the opportunity to redevelop Donnybrook, it seems this is an issue Dawson and co., just can't get over. Even the plan to fully fund an RDS stadium with funds attracted by Leinster with zero ownership can't get over the line.

I get their reluctance to commit to any kind of financial burden, but as mentioned in the article "the direct spend by spectators at Leinster games at the RDS is listed as €1.9 million per match", that's a lot of money to hand over to the RDS every other week because we never had the balls or competency to sort it out ourselves. Given that it's been a decade since this process started, I'd say the current situation and facilities are a disgrace. Still sitting on scaffolding in either the rain or under a canopy, unless you have the luxury of sitting in a stand that was built roughly a decade before the commencement of world war II ....

10 years would be 2008/9.

I'm not happy about this, but the issue is obviously funding and we're the tenant. Are we to fund it out of the playing budget? FOr an asset we won't even own?


Spot on. The stand was mooted as costing €26m two years ago [source: https://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/ ... 36044.html ].

Construction inflation was estimated at 6.2% in 2017 - increasing the price to c.€27.6m in 2017 costs – and 7% for this year [source: https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2018/0 ... er-prices/ ], increasing the price to c.€29.5m in 2018 costs. Adding a 10% contingency/overrun would give approximately €32.4m. The new stand will accommodate 6480 people, so that's a neat €5k/seat ... if it was built this year, which is impossible.

Given that they reapplied for planning permission because they wouldn't have it finished by the time the original permission expired [which would have been August 2021], the best we could hope for would be that it would be ready in 2022. Even if we decrease construction inflation by 2% p.a. [i.e. 7% in 2019, 5% in 2020, 3% in 2021, 1% in 2022] which is a complete unknowable, we have:

estimated 2019 construction cost: €34.7m
est. 2020 c.c.: €36.4m
est. 2021 c.c.: €37.5m
est. 2022 c.c.: €37.8m

You've now got a per seat cost of approximately €5845 and, in a reductive but not untrue argument, have spent €37.8m to increase the capacity by less than 740 people, or €51k/person.

Thomond cost €39m [source: http://www.the42.ie/munster-garrett-fit ... 7-Jan2016/ ] and has a normal capacity of 25,630 - 15,100 seated and 10,530 standing. As a whole capacity, that's €1520/seat; solely for the seated area it's €2580/seat; and taking each standing space on the terrace as a half-seat [the most reasonable approach], it's €1915/seat. Thomond's record capacity pre-renovation was 18,000 – so using the same blunt metric as above, they spent €39m to increase the capacity by 7,630.

The cost of construction is always going to be considerably higher in Dublin than in Limerick, but Thomond was built at more or less the height of the boom [ground was broken in early 2007] and general construction costs have just now got back to those marks, a decade later.

Look at the respective numbers: €37.8m for +740 and €39m for +7630.

Then look at the sh!t that building Thomond Park caused: there's a sub heading in the IRFU Annual Report 2016/17 called "Negative goodwill arising on share of Thomond Park Stadium Company DAC" [source: https://www.irishrugby.ie/downloads/IRF ... t_1617.pdf , p.53] and on p.54 it's explained that "The Union advanced funds to the Munster Branch in order to assist with the development of Thomond Park. The amounts advanced are secured on the Branch’s share in Thomond Park Stadium Company DAC and on the loan advanced by the Branch to that company. Interest is chargeable on the loan to the Branch based on the effective cost of funds to the Union ... The loan is to be fully repaid by 30 April 2027. Repayment of this loan has not been in accordance with the agreed schedule of loan repayments and current arrears amount to €4,300,000 (2016: €200,000)."

It has been a clusterf*ck, but whenever it all ends, either the Munster Branch or the IRFU will own it outright. That's just not the case with the RDS. Leinster/the IRFU are never going to own it, because the RDS won't sell it.

There was a significant amount riding on Ireland winning the RWC2023 bid and the government putting a lot of money into the RDS on the back of that. Obviously we didn't win, and that level of funding will be much, much harder to acquire from government sources. They've got other things to spend it on, like the rollout of Slaintecare and some actual housing for people.

While I understand some of the frustration about the long time frame thus far, this is a really complicated project and a really expensive one. They don't just happen in the blink of an eye.

/essay over
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Re: Sneak Peak - RDS Redevelopment Plans

Postby Fireworks » August 10th, 2018, 10:38 am

I do think this has been a bit of a mess. I think the major factors in this are the failed 2023 bid which would have brought funding for the development and the fact that it is the RDS and not Leinster doing the development. It is not easy to raise the finance required and the WC bid has dropped them into the building inflation trap as mentioned above.

On another front I will risk the anger of others by repeating what has probably been said a number of times..... The development as planned is not good enough. Replacing one stand for that amount of money with an increase of less than 1,000 seats is not what we need. The capacity requirements can be argued about but I feel that they needed to look for a full stadium development not just a single stand. The show jumpers and other users mean there cannot be permanent stands behind each goal line but there has to be a solution that provides a retractable seating solution and/or a roof. Even if the north and south stands remained as they were it would be preferable to see the other two stands developed. I would hope to see the capacity rise by a few thousand to allow for future support growth.

The alternative is that we move to our own site but I would not be a fan of that unless someone knows of a suitable site in the same region.
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Re: Sneak Peak - RDS Redevelopment Plans

Postby wixfjord » August 10th, 2018, 11:17 am

Fireworks wrote:I do think this has been a bit of a mess. I think the major factors in this are the failed 2023 bid which would have brought funding for the development and the fact that it is the RDS and not Leinster doing the development. It is not easy to raise the finance required and the WC bid has dropped them into the building inflation trap as mentioned above.

On another front I will risk the anger of others by repeating what has probably been said a number of times..... The development as planned is not good enough. Replacing one stand for that amount of money with an increase of less than 1,000 seats is not what we need. The capacity requirements can be argued about but I feel that they needed to look for a full stadium development not just a single stand. The show jumpers and other users mean there cannot be permanent stands behind each goal line but there has to be a solution that provides a retractable seating solution and/or a roof. Even if the north and south stands remained as they were it would be preferable to see the other two stands developed. I would hope to see the capacity rise by a few thousand to allow for future support growth.

The alternative is that we move to our own site but I would not be a fan of that unless someone knows of a suitable site in the same region.


I personally don't get the capacity argument. The simple maths of an extra x seats for y budget is way too simplistic.
We don't need bigger capacity in the RDS. As it is, the stadium is barely full for 5 games a year and we have the Aviva down the road.

We need a better fan experience and better corporate boxes which this will provide.

Now as a north stand dweller redesigning those with a roof would be great alright.
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Re: Sneak Peak - RDS Redevelopment Plans

Postby arsebiscuits1 » August 10th, 2018, 11:22 am

wixfjord wrote:
I personally don't get the capacity argument. The simple maths of an extra x seats for y budget is way too simplistic.
We don't need bigger capacity in the RDS. As it is, the stadium is barely full for 5 games a year and we have the Aviva down the road.

We need a better fan experience and better corporate boxes which this will provide.

Now as a north stand dweller redesigning those with a roof would be great alright.


Covering over the North and South stands would be great. It only has to come down once a year. I was in UCD for the Womens world cup and they had a little roof over the temporary pitch and it was great.

They have one over a stand in Myreside too.

Makes a difference. Keeps the noise in and the rain off.

I had the pleasure of being in the South Stand for the Connacht game on New Years day 2016(2017?) and I've never been so wet in my life.
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Re: Sneak Peak - RDS Redevelopment Plans

Postby johng » August 10th, 2018, 11:53 am

Only time I was ever in the South Stand was Sexto's Ireland Debut v Fiji in 09. That was so wet that you just had to relax into it as you were soaked through after 15 mins.
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Re: Sneak Peak - RDS Redevelopment Plans

Postby outcast eddie » August 10th, 2018, 12:12 pm

There is also the issue that the Anglesea stand will, in time, become un-useable through age and require replacement.

I'm amazed the Pit meets current fire regulations.
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Re: Sneak Peak - RDS Redevelopment Plans

Postby LeRouxIsPHat » August 10th, 2018, 12:25 pm

wixfjord wrote:
Now as a north stand dweller redesigning those with a roof would be great alright.


I really like the RDS but when you mention something basic like that it really puts it in perspective about how poor the whole set up is. I've sat in various seats in the Anglesea stand and it's a total lottery as to whether you get a horribly restricted view or a perfect one. So three out of four stands are barely fit for purpose. The Grandstand is always great but wasn't that the one where something collapsed last season? So that's not exactly perfect either and obviously doesn't have corporate boxes anyway.

I suppose in time it might be like the old Lansdowne, great for nostalgia but we'll only realise how decrepit it was when it's replaced.
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Re: Sneak Peak - RDS Redevelopment Plans

Postby riocard911 » August 10th, 2018, 1:08 pm

arsebiscuits1 wrote:
wixfjord wrote:
I personally don't get the capacity argument. The simple maths of an extra x seats for y budget is way too simplistic.
We don't need bigger capacity in the RDS. As it is, the stadium is barely full for 5 games a year and we have the Aviva down the road.

We need a better fan experience and better corporate boxes which this will provide.

Now as a north stand dweller redesigning those with a roof would be great alright.


Covering over the North and South stands would be great. It only has to come down once a year. I was in UCD for the Womens world cup and they had a little roof over the temporary pitch and it was great.

They have one over a stand in Myreside too.

Makes a difference. Keeps the noise in and the rain off.

I had the pleasure of being in the South Stand for the Connacht game on New Years day 2016(2017?) and I've never been so wet in my life.


I'm a sailor. I've been thru a two day hurricane off Cape Hatteras. I was wearing full oilies and I too "have never been so wet in my life" as that evening. Fair play to Leo though, he commended us, the demented irrepressibles, after the match! Yay!!!!
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