Toulon v Leinster

[dropkick]

For me the problem for Leinster is the age profile of the squad. There's a big group of undroppables who are all past their prime. I think it was 2 players under 28 started against Toulon and for many people they were two of the best players.


It's natural that things will go stale after a while and need freshening up. Teams are no different. It's up to Cullen to pick more youth but he is probably too close to his former teammates to drop them.


Some players look like they could do with a sabbatical from the game for 6 months. Healy and Sexton being prime examples.

[Broken Wing]

Agreed, not sure about our attack coaching either to be honest. I think we should have gone looking for an attack coach in the southern hemisphere. I also wonder whether we should have a more senior "director of rugby" type role to mentor Leo (Graham Henry maybe - think he's doing something similar with Argentina).

There's a broader point on the development of coaches. The direct route is not working and its not working for pretty obvious reasons - you're not bringing any step change breakthrough thinking (like Joe, Knoxy or Chieka); you're too familiar with the players and you just don't have the tools. I think smart young coaches like Girv should be on a development plan that involves coaching in France/England and in the Southern Hemisphere. Clearly a guy like Mark McCall is a completely different proposition now to the Mark McCall who coached Ulster when he stopped playing having coached in Ireland, France and England.

Hard to disagree with that and the whole MO'C out, interim Leo, appointing Leo thing was a bit of a mess in truth. That said, the rugby they are playing is better and I'm happy to wait until the end of the season before forming a solid opinion on what Leo delivers.

[molloyjh]

We need a forwards coach and a skills and kicking coach, both with no previous connection to Leinster or Ireland preferably

Good to hear we're looking for a forwards coach at the very least, but not replacing Richie was a massive mistake all right. I'm worried that they might be looking to Isa for that one for next season. Another former player with little to no experience is the last thing that we need.

[Xanthippe]

We need a forwards coach and a skills and kicking coach, both with no previous connection to Leinster or Ireland preferably

And with a clause in their contract that they are not allowed to become involved with team Ireland until AT LEAST one month after their Leinster contract expires!

[rooster]

We need a forwards coach and a skills and kicking coach, both with no previous connection to Leinster or Ireland preferably

Perhaps your existing guys are ok in their respective fields but you just need an outsider to glue them all together into a cohesive unit?

[Dave Cahill]

We need a forwards coach and a skills and kicking coach, both with no previous connection to Leinster or Ireland preferably

Perhaps your existing guys are ok in their respective fields but you just need an outsider to glue them all together into a cohesive unit?

We don't really have existing guys, thats the problem. Leo was forwards coach, which I presume he's still doing, before moving upstairs and we never replaced the 50% of Richie Murphy we were left with. We need people doing those jobs full time, and considering the Head Coach, backs coach, scrum coach and defense coach all came from the same gene pool, we need fresh blood. A different perspective on the game.

[neiliog93]

We need a forwards coach and a skills and kicking coach, both with no previous connection to Leinster or Ireland preferably

Perhaps your existing guys are ok in their respective fields but you just need an outsider to glue them all together into a cohesive unit?

We don't really have existing guys, thats the problem. Leo was forwards coach, which I presume he's still doing, before moving upstairs and we never replaced the 50% of Richie Murphy we were left with. We need people doing those jobs full time, and considering the Head Coach, backs coach, scrum coach and defense coach all came from the same gene pool, we need fresh blood. A different perspective on the game.

Hard to disagree with that. The job should never have gone to Leo so early but that's immaterial now, he needs all the support he can get.

[rooster]

We need a forwards coach and a skills and kicking coach, both with no previous connection to Leinster or Ireland preferably

Perhaps your existing guys are ok in their respective fields but you just need an outsider to glue them all together into a cohesive unit?

We don't really have existing guys, thats the problem. Leo was forwards coach, which I presume he's still doing, before moving upstairs and we never replaced the 50% of Richie Murphy we were left with. We need people doing those jobs full time, and considering the Head Coach, backs coach, scrum coach and defense coach all came from the same gene pool, we need fresh blood. A different perspective on the game.

Suppose you are still a long way behind Ulster, while I still await another few months before making a final decision on Kiss we basically have Doake as backs and Clarke as forwards coach, both locals but a lot more experienced than Leo. We have a young English coach Alex Codling running the A side who by reports is a fresh breath of life in that department, came from English club rugby has no previous ties with Ulster and is his own man and he is doing pretty well, perhaps it's someone like that you need in along with a Kiss type character to hold it all together.
Keep Leo get a low cost ambitious outsider for the backs and someone to glue it a together and make decisions about players which may not be popular with Leo's old team mates and a so bring a few fresh ideas in. Forget about existing head coaches and go for an assistant somewhere as he will be trying to make a name for himself rather than live on past achievements

[jezzer]

Agreed, not sure about our attack coaching either to be honest. I think we should have gone looking for an attack coach in the southern hemisphere. I also wonder whether we should have a more senior "director of rugby" type role to mentor Leo (Graham Henry maybe - think he's doing something similar with Argentina).

There's a broader point on the development of coaches. The direct route is not working and its not working for pretty obvious reasons - you're not bringing any step change breakthrough thinking (like Joe, Knoxy or Chieka); you're too familiar with the players and you just don't have the tools. I think smart young coaches like Girv should be on a development plan that involves coaching in France/England and in the Southern Hemisphere. Clearly a guy like Mark McCall is a completely different proposition now to the Mark McCall who coached Ulster when he stopped playing having coached in Ireland, France and England.

I don't want guys on job scheme appointments in Leinster either. But - for me anyway - Girve has served his apprenticeship and done it very well. His teams were playing very skilled, ambitious rugby with a lot of the fundamentals of attack play (depth, lines, passing, offloading) well executed. He's learned from Williams, O'Sullivan, Knox, Gaffney and Schmidt - that's a hell of a coaching tree. So, it's not the fact that he's unqualified that makes me question our back play - bevcause I think he's as qualified as most international backs coaches. It's not that he's inexperienced that would make me prefer another backs coach, because he has served wuite a bit of time in a key role where skills development and getting new and different combos to play together were his daily job. It's not that he comes from a playing culture and style that doesn't suit us like we had with MOC, because we know Girve's playing and coaching heritage.

So, why are the backs so cr@p? I think they're stale. I think there's no excitement in coming to work. I think the management style of the past few years has left a lot of players uninspired if not demotivated. If you watch Connacht play, they're not doing anything special tactically, but they're up on the balls of the feet, they're alert and they look ambitious and hungry. We look bored.

Joe in his last season started to move us towards more negative tactics in Leinster. He took that to a new level in the Ireland setup and the MOC years in Leinster were also terribly poorly coached and quite negative. We're maybe 3 years behind a lot of other teams in terms of how to play attacking rugby in this ever-evolving sport. We look like we don't know how to crack defences and we're not bothered trying.

We need to start enjoying ourselves. We need to stop worrying about what they might do to us and focus on what we should do to them. We should ban grubber kicks in the redzone, aerial pingpong to win 10m of territory and lose possession. We should be looking for ways in which we can ignite an offload game. Pick Cronin and accept the set piece will take a dip. Bring Te'o closer to his back row so we can link backs and forwards. Get Heaslip using his physique the way it was meant to be used. Get SHs passing out in front of players.

Girve is perfectly qualified to run a successful attack game. But he and Leo need to get their heads out of their arses and get these players energised, excited about playing positive rugby and executing it with something approaching ambition.

[Peg Leg]

Agreed, not sure about our attack coaching either to be honest. I think we should have gone looking for an attack coach in the southern hemisphere. I also wonder whether we should have a more senior "director of rugby" type role to mentor Leo (Graham Henry maybe - think he's doing something similar with Argentina).

There's a broader point on the development of coaches. The direct route is not working and its not working for pretty obvious reasons - you're not bringing any step change breakthrough thinking (like Joe, Knoxy or Chieka); you're too familiar with the players and you just don't have the tools. I think smart young coaches like Girv should be on a development plan that involves coaching in France/England and in the Southern Hemisphere. Clearly a guy like Mark McCall is a completely different proposition now to the Mark McCall who coached Ulster when he stopped playing having coached in Ireland, France and England.

I don't want guys on job scheme appointments in Leinster either. But - for me anyway - Girve has served his apprenticeship and done it very well. His teams were playing very skilled, ambitious rugby with a lot of the fundamentals of attack play (depth, lines, passing, offloading) well executed. He's learned from Williams, O'Sullivan, Knox, Gaffney and Schmidt - that's a hell of a coaching tree. So, it's not the fact that he's unqualified that makes me question our back play - bevcause I think he's as qualified as most international backs coaches. It's not that he's inexperienced that would make me prefer another backs coach, because he has served wuite a bit of time in a key role where skills development and getting new and different combos to play together were his daily job. It's not that he comes from a playing culture and style that doesn't suit us like we had with MOC, because we know Girve's playing and coaching heritage.

So, why are the backs so cr@p? I think they're stale. I think there's no excitement in coming to work. I think the management style of the past few years has left a lot of players uninspired if not demotivated. If you watch Connacht play, they're not doing anything special tactically, but they're up on the balls of the feet, they're alert and they look ambitious and hungry. We look bored.

Joe in his last season started to move us towards more negative tactics in Leinster. He took that to a new level in the Ireland setup and the MOC years in Leinster were also terribly poorly coached and quite negative. We're maybe 3 years behind a lot of other teams in terms of how to play attacking rugby in this ever-evolving sport. We look like we don't know how to crack defences and we're not bothered trying.

We need to start enjoying ourselves. We need to stop worrying about what they might do to us and focus on what we should do to them. We should ban grubber kicks in the redzone, aerial pingpong to win 10m of territory and lose possession. We should be looking for ways in which we can ignite an offload game. Pick Cronin and accept the set piece will take a dip. Bring Te'o closer to his back row so we can link backs and forwards. Get Heaslip using his physique the way it was meant to be used. Get SHs passing out in front of players.

Girve is perfectly qualified to run a successful attack game. But he and Leo need to get their heads out of their arses and get these players energised, excited about playing positive rugby and executing it with something approaching ambition.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

Attack doesn't just equate to backs/tries though. We made plenty of breaks and half breaks against Toulon, Bath, and Wasps, but couldn't finish them. Mainly because our handling was poor when it mattered but onviously there were other reasons. Our lack of tries has nothing to do with the coaching philosophy or lack of invention.

[jezzer]

Attack doesn't just equate to backs/tries though. We made plenty of breaks and half breaks against Toulon, Bath, and Wasps, but couldn't finish them. Mainly because our handling was poor when it mattered but onviously there were other reasons. Our lack of tries has nothing to do with the coaching philosophy or lack of invention.

Hmmmm. Struggling to agree with you on that one. I believe Girve is capable of coaching a great attack plan (and maybe in training he is), but it's not appearing on the field. Nor is the invention (personally I would say ambition, because I'm not talking about new innovative ideas so much as executing traditional "Leinster" skills with positivity). Plus, coaches are responsible for the team environment. If it's flat and execution is poor, it's up to the coaches to make changes. I love all these articles that say the players have to take responsibility, D'Arcy talking about how it's time to "stop the bus". Who stopped the bus? The coach, not the players. WHen you have to start appealign to the players to take responsibility, it's too late for the coach. Just ask Mourinho.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

It clearly is appearing on the field though. We got outside Toulon a good few times last weekend, and also made plenty of gains up the middle. Our forwards were carrying and handling well around the first receiver and in general our support play and clearing out was excellent, against what is one of the best teams in the world at slowing down ball and being physically imposing in defence, that shows good planning. Luke Fitz looked really dangerous and not only did he and others look dangerous up the middle, but we were able to hold defenders infield and move the ball wide and create space really well.

Problem was that it was all undone by things like Johnny firing a poor pass behind Ferg but the attacking plans are absolutely in place.

I'm not arguing that our attack is good btw, clearly we have problems scoring tries and it's falling down somewhere along the line. I just don't think it's in the planning or coaching philosophy. Handling would be the main thing and I would hope that that improves as we get more used to the game plan so that they can focus on execution rather than overthink what they're doing, and combinations play together more often (Luke and Te'o for example). I also think we lack pace but there's only so much a coaching team can do to overcome that. Again taking that Ferg dropped pass as an example, the coaches can give them the tools to get that space on the outside and have an idea of what to do if there's another phase, and that's what they are doing.

Watching the A game last week and over the last couple of years, it's very obvious that the firsts are now implementing a very similar attacking pattern, one that has really good variety and looks very dangerous. Basic mistakes may be cocking it up, but I honestly can't fathom how you can't see the progress being made.

[molloyjh]

It clearly is appearing on the field though. We got outside Toulon a good few times last weekend, and also made plenty of gains up the middle. Our forwards were carrying and handling well around the first receiver and in general our support play and clearing out was excellent, against what is one of the best teams in the world at slowing down ball and being physically imposing in defence, that shows good planning. Luke Fitz looked really dangerous and not only did he and others look dangerous up the middle, but we were able to hold defenders infield and move the ball wide and create space really well.

Problem was that it was all undone by things like Johnny firing a poor pass behind Ferg but the attacking plans are absolutely in place.

I'm not arguing that our attack is good btw, clearly we have problems scoring tries and it's falling down somewhere along the line. I just don't think it's in the planning or coaching philosophy. Handling would be the main thing and I would hope that that improves as we get more used to the game plan so that they can focus on execution rather than overthink what they're doing, and combinations play together more often (Luke and Te'o for example). I also think we lack pace but there's only so much a coaching team can do to overcome that. Again taking that Ferg dropped pass as an example, the coaches can give them the tools to get that space on the outside and have an idea of what to do if there's another phase, and that's what they are doing.

Watching the A game last week and over the last couple of years, it's very obvious that the firsts are now implementing a very similar attacking pattern, one that has really good variety and looks very dangerous. Basic mistakes may be cocking it up, but I honestly can't fathom how you can't see the progress being made.

cough, cough......skills coach.....cough, cough.