10

[curates_egg]

[Dave, you generally apply informed logic to all of your arguments. One mightn't agree with you but can always see where you are coming from.
On this point, I fear you are maybe letting emotion cloud your judgement and not applying the same logic to this player/situation you would to others.
Specifically, you would consistently argue that players underperforming should be dropped and that coaches picking underperforming players on reputation were wrong. This is logically very sound.
So, why do you not apply it to Sexton?.

Two reasons. Firstly, the game against Toulon is meaningless, its less important now than the game against Moseley was back in August. So who we select doesn't really matter. Therefore why not use a dead rubber to try and run some form into a guy who is, and this is the second reason, the most important player on our roster and who, even if playing at half his capacity is considerably better than any other option we have. If the next game were a Pro12 game, or the next selectorial options were in the same ballpark as JS, then my view on things would be different, but it isn't and they aren't

The 2012-13 Sexton would be the most important player in Ireland; I am really not sure this iteration is the most important player on our roster.
I know you think he still the best ten we have no matter how he plays but I really think you are ignoring some pretty worrying signs. His passing is currently really poor - behind players, into touch, over their heads; it is a bit of a lottery. He is not even the second best place kicker, based on percentages. He is frequently misqueuing dead ball kicks (penalties, drop offs).
Like everyone, I was excited that we were getting him back, knew he wouldn't be the same as 2012-13...but have been pretty surprised by how badly he is playing.

What if he plays the same again? What would it take for you to say: actually, no - he really needs a break, as this playing him into form lark is not working?

[williab2]

If he is ok he should be allowed play his way into form. Without having any medical knowledge, his co ordination is all over the place. Thats not a 'form' issue. Dave you must be looking at different games than the rest of us.

His tackling technique is awful and will continue to lead to more and more knocks.

Oh and RayDollard put your langer away will you. Anyone foolish enough to make Madigan the highest paid Irish player deserves everything they get. Fair play to Ian though.

[olaf the fat]

I may agree with Sexton getting space to find form, but I dont agree that this game is worthless.

We need a couple of European scalps for future confidence in the league, plus there are 10 thousand or more non season ticket holders turning up next weekend - a drubbing is the last thing we need now.

[Dave Cahill]

The 2012-13 Sexton would be the most important player in Ireland; I am really not sure this iteration is the most important player on our roster.
I know you think he still the best ten we have no matter how he plays but I really think you are ignoring some pretty worrying signs. His passing is currently really poor - behind players, into touch, over their heads; it is a bit of a lottery. He is not even the second best place kicker, based on percentages. He is frequently misqueuing stopped-clock kicks (penalties, drop offs).
Like everyone, I was excited that we were getting him back, knew he wouldn't be the same as 2012-13...but have been pretty surprised by how badly he is playing.

What if he plays the same again? What would it take for you to say: actually, no - he really needs a break, as this playing him into form lark is not working?

Its not a matter of him being 'the best ten we have no matter how he plays', but him being the best ten we have by some considerable distance - it actually highlights how poorly he is playing that one could reasonably consider dropping him for whoever is next in line. But considering the next game we have is a dead rubber, the risk-reward weighs in favour of picking for this game because even if he regains a modicum of form, then the reward is massive.

If he doesn't do so, then with important games in the Pro12 coming up, then you have to look at other options. But for Saturday, no.

[Dave Cahill]

I may agree with Sexton getting space to find form, but I dont agree that this game is worthless.

Its not worthless, its worth €3m

But it is meaningless.

[olaf the fat]

I may agree with Sexton getting space to find form, but I dont agree that this game is worthless.

Its not worthless, its worth €3m

But it is meaningless.

€3m = meaningless?
plus next years back to back home game sales & the Leinster "brand".

[Peg Leg]

In an attempt to answer the current lines of discussion on two of the threads RE: "10" & our coaching ticket. I give you this one word:
Radge

[Dons invisibility cloak]

[Dave Cahill]

€3m = meaningless?
plus next years back to back home game sales & the Leinster "brand".

The game is part of the annual dublin christmas experience now, its like Shelbourne Park or Leopardstown - the rugby itself is only important to a minority of attendees, and they'll be there no matter how Leinster are going.

[curates_egg]

€3m = meaningless?
plus next years back to back home game sales & the Leinster "brand".

The game is part of the annual dublin christmas experience now, its like Shelbourne Park or Leopardstown - the rugby itself is only important to a minority of attendees, and they'll be there no matter how Leinster are going.

Not if the blahdy prices keep going up and the quality of the rugby down! It's a fixture I always go to, as it is convenient for me to travel...but this year's pricing did seem higher than I expected.

I am sure Sexton will start this weekend, so it is not a windmill worth tilting at.
I do think he, Leinster and the IRFU would benefit from him getting a bit of time off to heal the body and work on the mind.
How long did Carter take? Let Jonny have that and see how we go.
Ireland will not win the 6 Nations with him playing how he is, so just give him a break. Even in the world cup and warm-ups, it was hard to argue he outplayed Madigan.
For the Pro12, we shouldn't need a 2012-13 Sexton to win our games (as we showed in 2012-13)...and we certainly don't need a 2015-16 incarnation. If he is ok and on form by April, then he would be a great asset to have.

[BlueWheels]

I may agree with Sexton getting space to find form, but I dont agree that this game is worthless.

Its not worthless, its worth €3m

But it is meaningless.

From a European Cup point of view it may be almost meaningless but psychologically it's far from meaningless.

The team need, if not a win, then at the very least to produce a performance that will boost their confidence before their inter-pro clashes Munster and Connacht over the Christmas period. Lets not forget that it was their poor form in last years League that had such a detrimental effect on their seeding for this years European competition.

[Raydollard]

Wilful waste makes woeful want; agus bionn an fireanna searbh.

[riocard911]

Wilful waste makes woeful want; agus bionn an fireanna searbh.

bíonn, go deimhin!!!

[Oldschool]

Dave you are 100% wrong.
There is something seriously wrong with Sexton and you don't need to have a medical background to see it.
Let's take the obvious stuff first.
The broken jaw a few years ago.
More recently concussion issues.
The extended loss of form.
The loss of coordination.
Then there's the other stuff.
Against Ulster he almost passed out on the pitch and was substituted about five minutes later.

Is that the broken jaw after which he put in a undeniably world class performance against he Boks and another not much worse against the Wallabies before being nominated for World Player of the Year?

Sometimes a guy doesn't play well because he's not playing well. No need for ill-informed supposition to fill in blanks that may well not be there.

You failed at the first hurdle, you picked on the one point that you thought had "easy put down" written all over it.
It's the not first concussion that does the damage, it's the accumulation of concussions.
And that is common knowledge whether you are of the medical profession or not.
Just have a read of the reference in the Ulster game and tell me we should not be worried.
Protecting our players should be our first priority and as AB0 points out elsewhere protecting other players should be part of that protection.
I don't want to see so called hard men getting away with any of their sh!t no matter who they play for.

[olaf the fat]

€3m = meaningless?
plus next years back to back home game sales & the Leinster "brand".

The game is part of the annual dublin christmas experience now, its like Shelbourne Park or Leopardstown - the rugby itself is only important to a minority of attendees, and they'll be there no matter how Leinster are going.

To go with all the other competing Christmas experiences or duties? Its even busier than communion season in Limerick!
Start throwing in the towel and we might see how fickle the walk up fan base is.

[Dave Cahill]

You failed at the first hurdle, you picked on the one point that you thought had "easy put down" written all over it.
It's the not first concussion that does the damage, it's the accumulation of concussions.
And that is common knowledge whether you are of the medical profession or not.
Just have a read of the reference in the Ulster game and tell me we should not be worried.
Protecting our players should be our first priority and as AB0 points out elsewhere protecting other players should be part of that protection.
I don't want to see so called hard men getting away with any of their sh!t no matter who they play for.

Common knowledge isn't actual knowledge, its just numerically reinforced ignorance.

You mentioned the broken jaw, you ignored the return - theres a reason why the put down was easy.

You mentioned concussions (where common knowledge thrives in a fertile bed of inaccuracy) yet failed to mention that he returned from an (excessively long) FFR mandated concussion layoff (that was marked by "disappointing and inaccurate commentary in the media by individuals with no medical expertise") to see Ireland to back to back 6 nations championships including excellent performances against Scotland, France and particularly England.

His ongoing problem is his groin and abductor area, has been for years yet you fail to mention them at all.

[Dave Cahill]

To go with all the other competing Christmas experiences or duties? Its even busier than communion season in Limerick!
Start throwing in the towel and we might see how fickle the walk up fan base is.

If they're fickle then you can win them over - all it needs is good marketing. This weeks game has not been well marketed from what I can see, and yet despite a relatively poor season last year, a mixed start to the season thus far and a lot of negativity about Irish rugby in general in the media, its still heading for a decent return.

[CiaranIrl]

In an attempt to answer the current lines of discussion on two of the threads RE: "10" & our coaching ticket. I give you this one word:
Radge

[Dons invisibility cloak]

ROG, that sneaky devil, did something to johnny when he was over in Paris. He got his revenge. Makes more sense now.

[jezzer]

The 2012-13 Sexton would be the most important player in Ireland; I am really not sure this iteration is the most important player on our roster.
I know you think he still the best ten we have no matter how he plays but I really think you are ignoring some pretty worrying signs. His passing is currently really poor - behind players, into touch, over their heads; it is a bit of a lottery. He is not even the second best place kicker, based on percentages. He is frequently misqueuing stopped-clock kicks (penalties, drop offs).
Like everyone, I was excited that we were getting him back, knew he wouldn't be the same as 2012-13...but have been pretty surprised by how badly he is playing.

What if he plays the same again? What would it take for you to say: actually, no - he really needs a break, as this playing him into form lark is not working?

Its not a matter of him being 'the best ten we have no matter how he plays', but him being the best ten we have by some considerable distance - it actually highlights how poorly he is playing that one could reasonably consider dropping him for whoever is next in line. But considering the next game we have is a dead rubber, the risk-reward weighs in favour of picking for this game because even if he regains a modicum of form, then the reward is massive.

If he doesn't do so, then with important games in the Pro12 coming up, then you have to look at other options. But for Saturday, no.

I think if you're picking a game to try and help a player regain his form, Toulon would be somewhere near the bottom. But if you drop him you risk him taking it really badly and your second best option is a fair drop from his in-form level.

On balance, I'd probably stick with him as starter, but I'd definitely haul him off for Madigan earlier in the home game, dead rubber or not.

My team would be (and I fully understand this will be nothing like the actual team):

1 McGrath
2 Strauss (if fit)
3 Ross (yes)
4 Toner
5 McCarthy
6 Ruddock
7 VDF
8 Heaslip

9 Reddan
10 Sexton
11 Luke
12 Te'o
13 Ringrose
14 D Kearney
15 Isa

Healy
Cronin
Moore
Moloney

Boss
Madigan
R Kearney

[neiliog93]

You judge an out-half on a few parameters. Let's judge Sexton and Madigan on them.

1) Place-kicking

Johnny's has actually been pretty ok but Madigan has proven over the last couple of years that he's one of the best world and is ahead of Sexton in this area.

2) Out of hand kicking

Johnny's has been woeful of late. Multiple kicks going out on the full, kicks going dead, garryowens sent far too long, crosskicks miscued etc, and botched restarts. Madigan's kicking hasn't been great either but it's been better than Johnny's.

3) Passing

Johnny's passing has been absolutely terrible lately - too low (even into the ground), behind players, too fast...Madigan's has been pretty good.

4) Running threat

At the moment Madigan's exceeds Johnny's, who rarely carries threateningly to the defensive line any more.

5) Decision-making

Johnny's is obviously better in ability terms (as with all of these categories except place-kicking) and even going by form he's probably still a bit ahead of Madigan in this area.

6) Defence

No complaints about Johnny here, brave as always. But he's still tackling too high. Madigan also generally does quite well defensively for a relatively very small fella.


Overall, Madigan is some way ahead. I'm not sure how a second game in 6 days after a bruising encounter with crucial Pro12 games and the 6 Nations to come after Christmas will 'play Johnny into form'. Rest him, I say. It's not so much about 'what Madigan has done', it's what Johnny hasn't done, consistently, for a long time.

[Oldschoolsocks]

You judge an out-half on a few parameters. Let's judge Sexton and Madigan on them.

1) Place-kicking

Johnny's has actually been pretty ok but Madigan has proven over the last couple of years that he's one of the best world and is ahead of Sexton in this area.

2) Out of hand kicking

Johnny's has been woeful of late. Multiple kicks going out on the full, kicks going dead, garryowens sent far too long, crosskicks miscued etc, and botched restarts. Madigan's kicking hasn't been great either but it's been better than Johnny's.

3) Passing

Johnny's passing has been absolutely terrible lately - too low (even into the ground), behind players, too fast...Madigan's has been pretty good.

4) Running threat

At the moment Madigan's exceeds Johnny's, who rarely carries threateningly to the defensive line any more.

5) Decision-making

Johnny's is obviously better in ability terms (as with all of these categories except place-kicking) and even going by form he's probably still a bit ahead of Madigan in this area.

6) Defence

No complaints about Johnny here, brave as always. But he's still tackling too high. Madigan also generally does quite well defensively for a relatively very small fella.


Overall, Madigan is some way ahead. I'm not sure how a second game in 6 days after a bruising encounter with crucial Pro12 games and the 6 Nations to come after Christmas will 'play Johnny into form'. Rest him, I say. It's not so much about 'what Madigan has done', it's what Johnny hasn't done, consistently, for a long time.

I'd be interested in hearing your opinion on game management, or is that covered in decision making?