Leinster v Toulon 2015/2016

[All Blacks nil]

Guys
A pointless spat.

On the internet?? Surely such a thing could never happen?

two little words

Madigan - Gopperth

Sorry Ray,
Can't wait to see Munster (in green and gold hoops) v Leinster in Michael O'Leary's familiar purple jerseys with a big white star. I don't think Denis O'Brien keeps racehorses. Let the big bucks role in.

[molloyjh]

It is not like for like though (with respect to our histories)

I think when we talk about history in rugby terms we have to really seperate pre and post professionalism.

Pre pro rugby Toulon were historically a big team.

When the game went professional Toulon struggled. they spent years outside the Top 14 and when promoted would bounce back down.

Leinster has always been a representative team of players who performed for their local clubs and got the honour to represent their province. That was why I went to Leinster games in the early 90's with my dad was to see my local team (Blackrock) getting their players represented, Roland, McGowan, Carey, Ridge, Oswald (a New Zealender), Mullin, Byrne, Frano etc etc. Then when it went professional in the early years it was still on the whole the same idea you always wanted your guy in the jersey, so a Rock guy over a Marys or Terenure guy etc. But as the years passed it stopped becoming that way (as parochial) it was all about who was best for Leinster, it was about who were the best Irish players no matter what club they came from who could represent my province and then go on to represent my country with a special kind of foreign player thrown into the mix, a Contepomi, a Rocky, a Hines.

My change in outlook was pretty small as professionalism passed and it has been very rewarding. Toulon on the other hand went from being the best in France to struggling in the second division in France.

Would I care so much about winning with foreigners if Leinster's model had proved to be unsuccessful over the last 20 years, ask Connacht fans, is it better to be winning with a lot of guys who might not be from that area or losing with a load of locals? I think they would want the latter.

I prefer our sysyem and it made me very proud when we have won trophy's with mostly our own developed players but give me 20 years of heartache and I probably would have a different view on teams full of so called mercenaries. Lots of teams have bought in players but few of them have been able to be a 'team' like Toulon, fair play to them. Over the last 6 years we have seen probably the best two teams since the start of pro European rugby and they both have very different models but it shows both have a place and both can be successful.

As I said, to each their own. I get that. I also get that Leinster have a significantly larger catchment area and population than Toulon so there's apples and oranges abound. Laporte has done a good job turning them into a team as well as you said, so credit is due there. But when a competition is dominated by 1 team for too long that is a bad thing. If they go on to win the trophy again this year then people will start getting fed up.

[Logorrhea]

I prefer our sysyem and it made me very proud when we have won trophy's with mostly our own developed players but give me 20 years of heartache and I probably would have a different view on teams full of so called mercenaries. Lots of teams have bought in players but few of them have been able to be a 'team' like Toulon, fair play to them.

Well said

the best two teams since the start of pro European rugby and they both have very different models but it shows both have a place and both can be successful.

Total nonsense

[simonokeeffe]

they all have lovely bottoms

if you want a good listen darcy and Hogan did the paper review on Off The Ball on Newstalk on Sunday, available on newstalk website or podcast stream

[hugonaut]

How many Toulon academy products played against Leinster at the weekend?

How many Leinster academy products did you have on your 5 last european defeat in a row, including 3 against Toulon?
It's your right to form losers. It's our right to recruit winners.

It's a simple question. Maybe you could answer it?

[goreyguy]

jesus if this toulon fan is what the majority of their fans are like then they are a truly awful bunch.

[Toulon fan]

jesus if this toulon fan is what the majority of their fans are like then they are a truly awful bunch.

Yah, pray god he knows you, and continue to show how smart and open minded you are. You're welcome!

[Oldschoolsocks]

jesus if this toulon fan is what the majority of their fans are like then they are a truly awful bunch.

Nope, he/she is obviously an outlier. You can recognise them easily by over defensiveness and sneering attitude.

[Toulon fan]

How many Toulon academy products played against Leinster at the weekend?

How many Leinster academy products did you have on your 5 last european defeat in a row, including 3 against Toulon?
It's your right to form losers. It's our right to recruit winners.

It's a simple question. Maybe you could answer it?

On the 23 Toulon players last saturday.

4 of them were formed in Toulon's Academy : Fresia, Chiocci, Mikautadze, Chilachava.
14 of them were coming from french Academies : the 4 up here + Bastareaud, Escande, Taofifenua, Suta, Guirado, Steffon and Delon Armitage, Gorgodze, Etrillard and Tillous-Borde.

Now you're gonna sell me the argument that they're all not "french" enough or "white" enough. Because that's the only last drops in your tank to justify your own failures.

And you could have counted it yourself, if you could count on your fingers.

[Oldschoolsocks]

Now you're gonna sell me the argument that they're all not "french" enough or "white" enough. Because that's the only last drops in your tank to justify your own failures.

And you could have counted it yourself, if you could count on your fingers.

It's often the racist that tries to deflect by accusing others of racism.

[Toulon fan]

It's often the racist that tries to deflect by accusing others of racism.

You are the ones accusing me to defend my team of foreigners, you are the one claiming it's not "pure local product" enough.
And then you're assuming that I'm racist?
Are you sure you're clear?

[molloyjh]

On the 23 Toulon players last saturday.

4 of them were formed in Toulon's Academy : Fresia, Chiocci, Mikautadze, Chilachava.
14 of them were coming from french Academies : the 4 up here + Bastareaud, Escande, Taofifenua, Suta, Guirado, Steffon and Delon Armitage, Gorgodze, Etrillard and Tillous-Borde.

Now you're gonna sell me the argument that they're all not "french" enough or "white" enough. Because that's the only last drops in your tank to justify your own failures.

And you could have counted it yourself, if you could count on your fingers.

Ah the old "French Academy" trick. A good one when trying to fudge the numbers you have to admit.

And then sure if all else fails cry racism. It doesn't have to have any basis in reality, but that doesn't matter.

I was happy to have a civil conversation myself. Wasn't expecting to see you get so defensive. You've let yourself down with this one though. It's actually pretty shameful stuff. Good luck.

[RoboProp]

Now you're gonna sell me the argument that they're all not "french" enough or "white" enough. Because that's the only last drops in your tank to justify your own failures.

And you could have counted it yourself, if you could count on your fingers.

It's often the racist that tries to deflect by accusing others of racism.

I met up with my old club mates in our new clubhouse by Lansdowne, it's our Christmas tradition. A few Toulon fans had ambled in. Ordinarily, I would makes myself known to them get them a jar. I appreciate travelling is costly so it's nice to drink for free, but for first time I couldn't bring myself to do it. One I was very deflated in defeat, two the ethos of this club irks me , three it could have been yer man Toulon fan I was buying for... Funk that

[Toulon fan]

You're welcome! The masks come off. Everyone sees your best profile, now.

[Oldschoolsocks]

It's often the racist that tries to deflect by accusing others of racism.

You are the ones accusing me to defend my team of foreigners, you are the one claiming it's not "pure local product" enough.
And then you're assuming that I'm racist?
Are you sure you're clear?

It was you who brought up the issue of race, run along now, I see no need to engage with this chauvinism.

[simonokeeffe]

London Irish are a French academy?

And Gorgodze came from Montpellier via Georgian senior club rugby

[jezzer]

How many Toulon academy products played against Leinster at the weekend?

How many Leinster academy products did you have on your 5 last european defeat in a row, including 3 against Toulon?
It's your right to form losers. It's our right to recruit winners.

It's a simple question. Maybe you could answer it?

I'll answer a question you didn't ask him or me, Hugo.

Since 2011, so only 4 years ago, Toulon have signed or had on their squad - by my count - 51 overseas players, the vast majority of whom are at or close to the top of the international game. All strictly within the league-mandated salary cap of course.

I haven't counted yet how may signings of French players from other clubs there have been in the same timeframe. They've signed 12 French players from other clubs in the last 3 seasons, but I haven't gone back to see how many players they signed or had on their squad before.

It's total bullshit, the whole thing. I give Laporte a lot of credit and the players still have to go out and win games. But it's bullshit. I'll give them half a star on the jersey for each Euro Cup.

[kassoulet]

Not sure if it's my place to clean up after the online mess that my fellow Toulonnais is stirring, but I do want to add the following:

(1) OTT is right on point about rugby in Toulon and its recent history.

(2) Stop saying that we have a bottomless budget, blah blah blah. Teams like Racing, Clermont or Stade Francais have MUCH deeper pockets. All are subject to the same salary cap and JIFF quotas. But unlike the aforementioned, Toulon actually has a demand that meets its supply.

(3) Not everyone approves of Boudjellal's rhetoric and Playstation-like recruitment. One of the most salient and recent examples is Quade Cooper. No one (including Laporte) wanted him, and the rumors of his reneging on his contract during the summer were all welcome with a sigh of relief from Toulon supporters. Alas, he ended up coming.

(4) I acknowledge that European club rugby may not be a level playing field at the moment because of vast differences in budgets, but believe me, there was a lot of resentment when Irish provinces had a quasi-monopoly on European titles. The overwhelming sentiment was that all your season was geared towards the HCup because the Celtic League was an absolute joke, whereas French teams had to compete in a cut-throat domestic league with promotion/relegation. I'm not necessarily buying into that argument, but the point is that whenever there is dominance from a team or group of teams, others will complain that it's unfair.

(5) However much it pains me to say that, I do agree with you that it would be good - for the sake of general interest in European rugby - if another team won the EC this year. It would also be good for Toulon, because there is a sense of entitlement and numbness that comes with the territory, and it's been having a negative effect on the game atmosphere.

(6) There are plenty of rugby fans in Toulon who have and will support their team regardless of how many academy players are on the team, so long as they sweat and bleed for the jersey. We have a history of embracing foreign individuals who have shaped the Toulon ethos (Eric Melville and Joe Van Niekerk being prime examples, and of course, JW). My suspicion is that over the long-run, whether imposed by quotas or more organically, the mix of local/other French/foreign players will be more balanced than it is now.

Bottomline: Being self-righteous and cloaking oneself in the "am holier than thou because there are more locally-grown players on my team than yours" is pointless. At any rate, your preference for your model is perfectly understandable, but there's no need to denigrate those who took a different path (actually, we don't really have a say). I know there were very reasonable posts on this thread, but it felt a bit disheartening to read largely negative comments on Toulon on this forum, which one starts to take personally. That doesn't excuse some of TF's comments.

Always up for a pint. Happy holidays to all.

[Flash Gordon]

On the 23 Toulon players last saturday.

4 of them were formed in Toulon's Academy : Fresia, Chiocci, Mikautadze, Chilachava.
14 of them were coming from french Academies : the 4 up here + Bastareaud, Escande, Taofifenua, Suta, Guirado, Steffon and Delon Armitage, Gorgodze, Etrillard and Tillous-Borde.

Now you're gonna sell me the argument that they're all not "french" enough or "white" enough. Because that's the only last drops in your tank to justify your own failures.

And you could have counted it yourself, if you could count on your fingers.

[/quote]

Not sure about the Amitage Brothers, they definitely played for Nice as kids but did they enter an academy? My understanding is that Delon was rejected and actually came through the London Irish Academy (as did his brother Guy).

The higher point is, of course, that the budgets could kill the game. I said this the first time Toulon won the tournament - they could win this thing 5 years In a row. The only ones who will get close are other French clubs with ridiculous budgets and Saracens.

[jezzer]

Not sure if it's my place to clean up after the online mess that my fellow Toulonnais is stirring, but I do want to add the following:

(1) OTT is right on point about rugby in Toulon and its recent history.

(2) Stop saying that we have a bottomless budget, blah blah blah. Teams like Racing, Clermont or Stade Francais have MUCH deeper pockets. All are subject to the same salary cap and JIFF quotas. But unlike the aforementioned, Toulon actually has a demand that meets its supply.

(3) Not everyone approves of Boudjellal's rhetoric and Playstation-like recruitment. One of the most salient and recent examples is Quade Cooper. No one (including Laporte) wanted him, and the rumors of his reneging on his contract during the summer were all welcome with a sigh of relief from Toulon supporters. Alas, he ended up coming.

(4) I acknowledge that European club rugby may not be a level playing field at the moment because of vast differences in budgets, but believe me, there was a lot of resentment when Irish provinces had a quasi-monopoly on European titles. The overwhelming sentiment was that all your season was geared towards the HCup because the Celtic League was an absolute joke, whereas French teams had to compete in a cut-throat domestic league with promotion/relegation. I'm not necessarily buying into that argument, but the point is that whenever there is dominance from a team or group of teams, others will complain that it's unfair.

(5) However much it pains me to say that, I do agree with you that it would be good - for the sake of general interest in European rugby - if another team won the EC this year. It would also be good for Toulon, because there is a sense of entitlement and numbness that comes with the territory, and it's been having a negative effect on the game atmosphere.

(6) There are plenty of rugby fans in Toulon who have and will support their team regardless of how many academy players are on the team, so long as they sweat and bleed for the jersey. We have a history of embracing foreign individuals who have shaped the Toulon ethos (Eric Melville and Joe Van Niekerk being prime examples, and of course, JW). My suspicion is that over the long-run, whether imposed by quotas or more organically, the mix of local/other French/foreign players will be more balanced than it is now.

Bottomline: Being self-righteous and cloaking oneself in the "am holier than thou because there are more locally-grown players on my team than yours" is pointless. At any rate, your preference for your model is perfectly understandable, but there's no need to denigrate those who took a different path (actually, we don't really have a say). I know there were very reasonable posts on this thread, but it felt a bit disheartening to read largely negative comments on Toulon on this forum, which one starts to take personally. That doesn't excuse some of TF's comments.

Always up for a pint. Happy holidays to all.

You seem like a reasonable and balanced poster, so HI! It's true, the provinces did get away with automatic qualification for the H-Cup every year (and a lot of us agree it wasn't fair - we actually wanted entry based on league position), but I'm not sure how much of an advantage it was for us in the competition itself. Sure, we focused on Europe but that's hardly unusual. The English sides all focused on it. Clermont and Toulouse in particular did also. There were plenty of sides who were quite safe in their league table who chose not to send strong teams into Europe. Most of those teams were French. I have no problem if they rate the Brennus higher than the H-Cup, but other teams shouldn't be criticised for taking the opposite view.

I don't think our opposition to Toulon is coming from a position of "am holier than thou because there are more locally-grown players on my team than yours" . Because that implies that the difference between the two teams is simply that we developed more players in-house than Toulon did. That's not quite the full story. Toulon is essentially buying the competition. Like I said in my past posts, Laporte has done very well and the players have worked hard to win. There's no cheating going on during the game. But the idea that Toulon are respecting a salary cap (or that the salary cap in France is set and/or managed properly) is a bit of a joke.

When that Sheik bought Man City in 2008, everyone thought he was crazy. When he then started buying every player known to man for absolutely huge money, we thought he was batshit crazy. His shares are now valued over 10 times what he paid. So, the crazy ones are the Sky Sports subscribers and season ticket holders. Boudjellal is replicating this on a smaller scale in rugby. Maybe he never wants to sell. Maybe it's all for the love of rugby. But the system which kept some kind of level playing field in European Rugby is now obsolete and Toulon are purchasing competitions in this vacuum of control.

The rugby is amazing. I can understand a Toulon fan enjoying it and not wanting it to end, even if it's a Riviera Globetrotters rather than a local product. But please don't criticise us for criticising you. 51 top-level foreign players and many more French stars over just 4 years. Admit it for what it is, an obscenity. Obscene can be entertaining, can be sexy, but it's obscene nonetheless.