Log Jams in Irish Rugby

[Ruckedtobits]

Despite having read the various articles in The Journal 42 about Nucifora's Press "briefing" last night, I remain unconvinced as to how proactive, or benign, is his attitude towards recruitment and player movement in the Irish Provinces and particularly Leinster. However, on the basis that "the Rottweiller" Cumiskey could not extract any more damning evidence (or maybe GT didn't invite him), it's maybe worth looking at the most obvious log-jams in Irish Provincial rugby and seeing just how obvious are the options for the various players involved.

Prop Forwards - Leinster
LOOSE HEAD: 1. McGrath; 2. Healy; 3. Bent; 4. Dooley; 5. Ed Byrne; 6. Loughman; 7. Porter;
TIGHT HEAD: 1. Ross; 2. Moore; 3. Furlong: 4. Royce Burke; 5. Heffernan;

That's six international props, split 3 and 3, and 4 further LH props with excellent U. 20 experience. No matter how you cut it, with only Ross and Bent over age 30, there is just not enough top-quality game time to develop all of these guys in one Province.

Centres - Ulster
No 12: 1. McCloskey; 2. Cave; 3. Olding; 4. Arnold;
No 13: 1. Payne; 2. Marshall; 3. Scholes; 4. Stockdale;

In this case, some may argue that I have assigned players to the wrong position and I will acknowledge that a good few can play either position. However, it should be remembered that both Trimble and Bowe can also cover Centre for the Province, as required, having both been capped there, but it is highly unlikely that there is sufficient quality game time to develop all these players to their full potential within one Province.

No 8 - Munster
1. Stander; 2. Copeland; 3. O'Donoghue; 4. J Coughlan; 5. D O'Callaghan;

Recognising that two No 8's, Coughlan and Butler, have already departed to Pau, it is once again clear that there is no sufficient game time to ensure the development of all of these players to their full potential as No 8. Certainly the current practice of playing three of them across the back-row may ensure that they all get game time, but not quality No 8 experience. With Ulster having an aging Nick Williams and an equally aged Roger Wilson, and Connacht served by Muldoon and Naipu - alongside young tyros like Masterson and McKeon, surely it is time to "encourage" some movement among these Munster boys to go where they can optimise their talent in a position that Ireland will need to fill within 2 seasons.

Other Examples

A. Blind-sides in Leinster Sean O'Brien; Dominic Ryan; Rhys Ruddock; Peader Timmons; Josh Murphy. Possibly not as crowded as previously with the retirement of Kev McLoughlin and departure to pastures new by Gilsenan and J Coughlan, but still too many to be certain they will all develop to their optimum abilities. Once again, Ulster looks like the land of promise with Diack sharing duties with Clive Ross, and occasionally, Sean Reidy.

B. Hookers in Leinster Strauss; Cronin; Dundon; Treacy; B Byrne; McNulty. Two current internationals and two highly regarded U.20 hookers and a converted Prop, who is looking like a successful experiment, are just too many guys to get adequate game-time to optimise their ability at the time in their careers when appetite is at its highest and gains can be made fastest. Connacht could do with one of these guys and would benefit from the experience of one of the older ones in particular.

There are possibly more positional examples, but there are equally some "Bermuda Triangles" positions where there are not enough players to meet the Provinces requirements, the two most obvious being 2nd Row and Scrum Half. The IDA should be tasked with identifying the supplier of scrum-halves and 2nd rows to Scotland or to New Zealand, and cutting them a special tax deal with a fully equipped advance factory to fast track production in both these positions.

[rooster]

Scrum half is probably the main problem within the next few years

[Ruckedtobits]

Scrum half is probably the main problem within the next few years

I bow to your canny assessment of all things Ulster, in particular, and Irish Provinces in general. However, I perceive our 2nd row problem as far more significant. There are few 2m plus players.on the horizon within the Irish systems, who are not already internationals. Guys like O'Connor and Dillane have progressed really well to get to Pro12 and EPRC level but I doubt they will compete effectively at international level. We need to find the equivalent of the Grey brothers very quickly otherwise we will be very thin on the ground in the row and we'll have to play 6N like Japan play RWC.

[rooster]

Scrum half is probably the main problem within the next few years

I bow to your canny assessment of all things Ulster, in particular, and Irish Provinces in general. However, I perceive our 2nd row problem as far more significant. There are few 2m plus players.on the horizon within the Irish systems, who are not already internationals. Guys like O'Connor and Dillane have progressed really well to get to Pro12 and EPRC level but I doubt they will compete effectively at international level. We need to find the equivalent of the Grey brothers very quickly otherwise we will be very thin on the ground in the row and we'll have to play 6N like Japan play RWC.

Without a good scrum half though it does not matter whether our second row players are short arses or the height of Toner

[Oldschoolsocks]

Scrum half is probably the main problem within the next few years

I bow to your canny assessment of all things Ulster, in particular, and Irish Provinces in general. However, I perceive our 2nd row problem as far more significant. There are few 2m plus players.on the horizon within the Irish systems, who are not already internationals. Guys like O'Connor and Dillane have progressed really well to get to Pro12 and EPRC level but I doubt they will compete effectively at international level. We need to find the equivalent of the Grey brothers very quickly otherwise we will be very thin on the ground in the row and we'll have to play 6N like Japan play RWC.

Without a good scrum half though it does not matter whether our second row players are short arses or the height of Toner

England won a World Cup with Matt Dawson

[dropkick]

Scrum half is probably the main problem within the next few years

I bow to your canny assessment of all things Ulster, in particular, and Irish Provinces in general. However, I perceive our 2nd row problem as far more significant. There are few 2m plus players.on the horizon within the Irish systems, who are not already internationals. Guys like O'Connor and Dillane have progressed really well to get to Pro12 and EPRC level but I doubt they will compete effectively at international level. We need to find the equivalent of the Grey brothers very quickly otherwise we will be very thin on the ground in the row and we'll have to play 6N like Japan play RWC.

John Madigan is highly rated in Munster. 120kg and a good ball carrier. Sean McCarthy is also rated. Also Darren O'Shea in Worcester is rated but I have not seen him play.

In Leinster Ross Moloney looks a good prospect.

There are more underage locks coming through like James Ryan. Too early to tell with them but some will come good. A few years ago there were few quality props in the country but there's loads now. Thats because the IRFU targeted prop development after being destroyed by the England scrum.


Scrum half is a problem alright. Marmion, Nick McCarthy and luke McGrath look good and we just have to hope a few more spring up.


Hooker is looking more positive now than a few months ago. That's mainly down to Mike Sherry coming back as well as Tracy, Heffernan and Delahunt performing well.

[COYBIB]

Ah, there's zero issue in this. I despise the IRFU, Nucifora, Philip Browne, Matt Dawson ... they've all got to go, ditto Fitzgerald down in Munster. The dictatorship of Irish rugby, this is a national body of the people that is looking more and more like that old boys club of the FAI by the day. The cartel needs to go, they are absolutely incapable of dealing with the commercial demands of the sport and are out of ideas and this "performance management" knob is the last straw. There's no issue here.

Ross should maybe move on at this point in his career, I think Leinster have better options and Munster, where he's from, need an option. Loosehead, Bent is a squad player, no issue with having him behind Healy and McGrath, and ditto with tight head, there's no problem with having two internationals in your squad, all being equal and they're fit every game, chances are they'll play about 50% of the season game time each anyway, that's propping for you.

Of the Ulster centres, only 4 of those players who are getting game time are actually centres and at least two of them spend the majority of the time in hospital.

As for the back-log of Munster 8's, there's only one who should be within an arses roar of a national team.

More sh!t stirring boring journalism. Another part of Irish rugby where you wish the old dinosaurs would go and die a death, completely outdated. If you want a modern journalist who isn't just some clueless troll who works in a paper for some reason but with zero expertise (because they pre-date the internet and therefore were the only universal opinion in town) see Murray Kinsella. Thornley is a fan boy and when you see him in the pubs around Ballsbridge like a star struck little girl standing awkwardly on the outside shoulder of the conversation of old pro's, you realise what a pathetic little man he is and actually sort of feel sorry for him.

[blaker]

If you assume that you won't move the next in line from any province -eg leaving both Healy and McGrath here - then the movement of players looks far less likely to be of any consequence. Possibly only bent of anybody 3rd in line would walk into any of the other provinces?
The movement t should happen much earlier and much lower down the chain. So like our back row situation about 18 months ago where we had practically 2 full international rows before getting to to youth/academy/prospects - probably some of those youth or academy type guys could have gone to another province where they still would t be first choice but would be more likely to get relevant developmental time here and there

[CiaranIrl]

Ah, there's zero issue in this. I despise the IRFU, Nucifora, Philip Browne, Matt Dawson ... they've all got to go, ditto Fitzgerald down in Munster. The dictatorship of Irish rugby, this is a national body of the people that is looking more and more like that old boys club of the FAI by the day. The cartel needs to go, they are absolutely incapable of dealing with the commercial demands of the sport and are out of ideas and this "performance management" knob is the last straw. There's no issue here.

Ross should maybe move on at this point in his career, I think Leinster have better options and Munster, where he's from, need an option. Loosehead, Bent is a squad player, no issue with having him behind Healy and McGrath, and ditto with tight head, there's no problem with having two internationals in your squad, all being equal and they're fit every game, chances are they'll play about 50% of the season game time each anyway, that's propping for you.

Of the Ulster centres, only 4 of those players who are getting game time are actually centres and at least two of them spend the majority of the time in hospital.

As for the back-log of Munster 8's, there's only one who should be within an arses roar of a national team.

More sh!t stirring boring journalism. Another part of Irish rugby where you wish the old dinosaurs would go and die a death, completely outdated. If you want a modern journalist who isn't just some clueless troll who works in a paper for some reason but with zero expertise (because they pre-date the internet and therefore were the only universal opinion in town) see Murray Kinsella. Thornley is a fan boy and when you see him in the pubs around Ballsbridge like a star struck little girl standing awkwardly on the outside shoulder of the conversation of old pro's, you realise what a pathetic little man he is and actually sort of feel sorry for him.

There's a beer fueled post if ever there was one.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

Think Matt Dawson is already gone.

[johng]

There's a beer fueled post if ever there was one.

Jaysus you would hope so. Otherwise........

[rooster]

I bow to your canny assessment of all things Ulster, in particular, and Irish Provinces in general. However, I perceive our 2nd row problem as far more significant. There are few 2m plus players.on the horizon within the Irish systems, who are not already internationals. Guys like O'Connor and Dillane have progressed really well to get to Pro12 and EPRC level but I doubt they will compete effectively at international level. We need to find the equivalent of the Grey brothers very quickly otherwise we will be very thin on the ground in the row and we'll have to play 6N like Japan play RWC.

Without a good scrum half though it does not matter whether our second row players are short arses or the height of Toner

England won a World Cup with Matt Dawson

Even worse Dawson nicked the best looking girl in our locality, never forgave him for that.

[simonokeeffe]

worse comes to worst Peter Stringer will still be playing in his late forties but with Marmion, McGrath, and Cooney there's enough of a chance of at least one emerging as suitable backup to Murray

lockwise, Toner is only 29 and with his injury profile we could get another 2 world cups out of him, Foley is 27, Connacht have the few promising guys, Madigan, Molony, O'Connor, so plenty there plus Ian Henderson

[neiliog93]

I wouldn't say we have plenty of second-rows. Dave Foley doesn't look like he's ever going to be good enough to really impose himself on the international stage. We currently have Ryan, Henderson and Toner who are good enough. Tuohy is borderline. Mike Mac does a job but isn't a 6 Nations candidate. None of the Connacht guys have shown enough promise for us to really believe they'll step up to be 6 Nations winning second-rows in the future - Qualter, Dillane etc. Lewis Stevenson is dross. Alan O'Connor looks decent but again, not exactly the next Malcolm O'Kelly.

[hugonaut]

I wouldn't say we have plenty of second-rows. Dave Foley doesn't look like he's ever going to be good enough to really impose himself on the international stage. We currently have Ryan, Henderson and Toner who are good enough. Tuohy is borderline. Mike Mac does a job but isn't a 6 Nations candidate. None of the Connacht guys have shown enough promise for us to really believe they'll step up to be 6 Nations winning second-rows in the future - Qualter, Dillane etc. Lewis Stevenson is dross. Alan O'Connor looks decent but again, not exactly the next Malcolm O'Kelly.

I agree NOG93 - weakest lock-pickings in quite a while, especially with Hendo out.

I don't think Donnacha Ryan is showing anywhere near his best form at the moment. Would have been very interesting to see him go head-to-head with Mike McCarthy today, but unfortunately Leo has chosen to given MMcC a [well-earned] break. MMcC has played Six Nations rugby in the recent enough past [2013] and is in good form ... I would say noticeably better form than Ryan at the moment.

In terms of the quick-fix required with O'Connell's retirement and Henderson's injury, I'd say MMcC is very much in the picture. I also think that Aly Muldowney will be in with a shout under the same set of circumstances. At 32 years old, he's not exactly one for the future, but he's the form lock in the country at the moment [edging McCarthy] and has decent size at 196cm and 122kg.

To borrow some classic American sports phraseology [having listened to The Dagger co-comentate on Ulster's victory over Connacht last night], I definitely see us using a 'platoon' system in the second row for this Six Nations: get an early substitution on for the tighthead lock [say 45mins] and essentially give two big strong players a half each beside Toner. At the moment I would see that being McCarthy to start and Muldowney off the bench, but a big performance from Ryan today could change that.

I think Ultan Dilanne has shown an awful lot of promise thus far this season and is very young for a lock – his birthdate is 09/11/93, i.e. he only turned 22 last month. Decent size, excellent athleticism, good football and buckets of energy. I think there's a lot of potential there and that he can benefit from Roux's injury and log a good stint of games over the next two or three months. From what I've seen of him, he's a long way ahead of Dan Qualter in terms of young Connacht locks. I think he could benefit a lot from being included in a Six Nations training squad in order for him to see the level of physical power, toughness and competitiveness that is required, and also for the national coaches to get a good look at him and how he compares to the older guys.

Alan O'Connor [born Sep 1992] is progressing well in Ulster and started both wins against Toulouse – that's good going for a 23 year old. He's got the mean competitive streak that you like to see in a young second row, and will become a more viable option the older and stronger he gets. I think he's definitely more a tighthead second row than a ball-playing, spring-heeled lock, and as he gets bigger and older and grumpier he will become more valuable.

As I have said before, the 1980s were a pretty fallow time for lock production in Ireland. The tail end of the 1970s saw some heavyweight stork deliveries: O'Connell [1979, 108 caps - test debut Feb 2002, aged 22]; O'Callaghan [1979, 94 caps - test debut March 2003, aged 23]; Cullen [1978, 32 caps - test debut Jun 2002, aged 24]; O'Driscoll [1978, 23 caps - test debut Jun 2001, aged 22]; Casey [1978, 7 caps - test debut Oct 1999, aged 21]. That's just the product of two years - 1978 & 1979 - in two provinces producing 264 Irish caps in two positions.

[simonokeeffe]

I wouldn't say we have plenty of second-rows. Dave Foley doesn't look like he's ever going to be good enough to really impose himself on the international stage. We currently have Ryan, Henderson and Toner who are good enough. Tuohy is borderline. Mike Mac does a job but isn't a 6 Nations candidate. None of the Connacht guys have shown enough promise for us to really believe they'll step up to be 6 Nations winning second-rows in the future - Qualter, Dillane etc. Lewis Stevenson is dross. Alan O'Connor looks decent but again, not exactly the next Malcolm O'Kelly.

depends what you take 'logjam' or the OP as, if you take as the next match/whats around the corner yeah we're a bit stuck for international class locks, but I thought 'logjam' was development/medium term/we're not going to develop more players (locks in this case)?

[COYBIB]

There's a beer fueled post if ever there was one.

Don't even remember posting it!

Ah, we all get a little bit carried away sometimes, my apologies!

[neiliog93]

Ryan managed to disrupt the Leinster line-out today but he was conspicuously poor in the loose. Looked really underpowered in collisions and generally floundered around. I suppose you're right in the sense that we're not too badly stocked for second-rows at provincial level in Ireland, but we're in trouble at international level.

[Ruckedtobits]

Only when Cronin was on duty. He underthrew about 4 balls and 3 of them wrre picked off. But Molony got 4 from Munster, either caught or disrupted in 18 mins, a great display of real acceleration and dynamism in his jumping

[simonokeeffe]

Only when Cronin was on duty. He underthrew about 4 balls and 3 of them wrre picked off. But Molony got 4 from Munster, either caught or disrupted in 18 mins, a great display of real acceleration and dynamism in his jumping

and unlike denton didnt drop any in contact