What is your prefered backline for the rest of the season?

[simonokeeffe]

I just dont get the obsession with us producing internationals rather than even providing them

and youre saying the academy isnt producing scrumhalves then writing a list of them

Its just sheer negativity to say as Luke McGrath is becoming 1st choice 9 to say we're not producing 9's because theyre not playing for Ireland

you can go through pretty much every position in the team and find a significant period where we didnt field purebred Leinster players

[blockhead]

When were Reddan and Boss signed? 2009 and 2010?
At that stage Leinster had failed to develop:
Cillian Willis, leaving for Ulster in 2008. At the age of 23.
Matt Darcy, leaving for Doncaster in the summer of 2008. At the age of 22.
Dave Moore, leaving for Harlequins in the summer of 2010 when Boss was brought in. At the age of 22.
Paul O'Donohue, leaving for Connacht in 2011. At the age of 24.

So when Reddan was brought in Leinster had failed to bring through Willis and Darcy in the previous few seasons and had a 21 year old Moore and a 22 year old O'Donohue on the books. The next summer, they brought in Boss while having failed to bring through both Moore and O'Donohue.

Now with two mid 30's scrumhalves Leinster may fail again..

Also I'd argue if Cooney has been given sufficient gametime, trust and coaching he would have bypassed Boss in recent seasons. It's not like Boss has been excellent scrumhalves the past two or three seasons, he has been average one.

Leinster haven't produced any internationals at scrumhalf.. it's not too much to ask to produce one homegrown player to step up to the senior team when there has been a need there multiple times.

Leinster won 3Heinos, 3 Pro12s 2 B&Is and an Amlin in that period. Somebody/s was making a lot of good calls.
But we haven't produced a homegrown international 9 in that same period! meh
I picked Redddan because, imho, he is the 9 most likely to get us to that VITAL 6th spot in the table (a spot in next years Heino), and maybe even 4th (Pro12 playoffs), and if we play really well then 2nd (home semi). A home semi could fund the purchase of a world class 9 for next season! Imagine if we had someone like Ruan P in our side......
Ireland has Murray, their OK for a few years yet.

[artaneboy]

thought you said Ringrose was too small (compared to Te'o) or was that just for Europe?

It was to be thrown in at 13 against Toulon. And he was right. Leo obviously thought it wasn't a great idea either.

To be honest "Europe" isn't really part of our season now. It's a distraction with a home game we will want to put a strong team out for to give the fans a reason to turn up. Be a good idea to give Ringrose some European experience at 13 this year though as it may stand him in good stead next year.

to devil's advocate here we've other big games too and should Europe not be used to make a statement, throw down a marker,let players prove themselves, and other cliches?

I'd love to see Ringrose get more games but don't think Te'o will be thrown under the bus altogether, and the arguments for doing that to him apply to Madigan too

The so-called "arguments" on not playing Madigan or Te'o make no sense in a professional playing context.

Also- even though we are out of Europe now, we should not be sending out experimental or make-shift teams in the remaining fixtures- even to give experience to rapidly emerging talent such as Ringrose. There is the question of restoring pride- but as important is the fact that we should be rather sending out teams that win and build confidence- or at least get the experience of playing well- which can lead to winning in the future. Experimental teams rarely do either- and usually never appear on the field in that combination again. Experience of frustration and loss with playing partners not likely to be seen again- won't help Gary in the long run or us in the short.

On the backline- well it will obviously vary- but I'll play.....
9. McGrath; 10. Sexton; 11. Isa; 12. Te'o; 13. Ringrose; 14. Luke; 15. Rob.

[simonokeeffe]

When were Reddan and Boss signed? 2009 and 2010?
At that stage Leinster had failed to develop:
Cillian Willis, leaving for Ulster in 2008. At the age of 23.
Matt Darcy, leaving for Doncaster in the summer of 2008. At the age of 22.
Dave Moore, leaving for Harlequins in the summer of 2010 when Boss was brought in. At the age of 22.
Paul O'Donohue, leaving for Connacht in 2011. At the age of 24.

So when Reddan was brought in Leinster had failed to bring through Willis and Darcy in the previous few seasons and had a 21 year old Moore and a 22 year old O'Donohue on the books. The next summer, they brought in Boss while having failed to bring through both Moore and O'Donohue.

Now with two mid 30's scrumhalves Leinster may fail again..

Also I'd argue if Cooney has been given sufficient gametime, trust and coaching he would have bypassed Boss in recent seasons. It's not like Boss has been excellent scrumhalves the past two or three seasons, he has been average one.

Leinster haven't produced any internationals at scrumhalf.. it's not too much to ask to produce one homegrown player to step up to the senior team when there has been a need there multiple times.

Leinster won 3Heinos, 3 Pro12s 2 B&Is and an Amlin in that period. Somebody/s was making a lot of good calls.
But we haven't produced a homegrown international 9 in that same period! meh
I picked Redddan because, imho, he is the 9 most likely to get us to that VITAL 6th spot in the table (a spot in next years Heino), and maybe even 4th (Pro12 playoffs), and if we play really well then 2nd (home semi). A home semi could fund the purchase of a world class 9 for next season! Imagine if we had someone like Ruan P in our side......
Ireland has Murray, their OK for a few years yet.

theres also guys like Brian O'Riordan who got more than enough chances and high level coaching but never kicked on, whose fault is that? or guys leaving because they were behind internationals like Whittaker, Easterbunny, Boss, Reddan

What year was the academy set up by the way? For first few years of pro rugby was just an IRFU academy wasnt there?
Technically then you could say the Leinster academt no pro centres for Ireland because BOD and Darcy cam through national academy I think or straight from schools/clubs/college

If you go by regular starting Irish internationals the Leinster academy hasnt produced any hookers, tightheads (until now), locks (for a long time & only 1), blindsides, scrumhalves, or centres* and yet somehow is still regarded as one of the best academies in the world

[LeRouxIsPHat]

players generally dont go straight from provincial academies into the Ireland jersey

we're back to the circuitous argument of we cant produce new internationals and shouldnt expected to be when we have the incumbants; we've had Boss and Reddan for 5 years so there were next to no opportunities for 9s at Leinster as we had the 2nd and 3rd choice (active) Irish internationals, same as we had with centres, and have with hookers, tighthead until recently, we havent produced a new Ireland number 8 for almost 10 years, you cant have a continuous revolution of Leinster producing internationals in the same positions every couple of seasons

youve a choice here: you can blame the academy or blame the senior set up, academy is not going to supply finished products to the senior team, not the academy's fault if MOC say packs off Cooney and ignores McGrath

Brilliantly put.

I don't get it either and I think it's nuts to ignore the injuries to Scally and Willis that I mentioned before. Those don't happen and the situation looks very different, and that's nothing to do with poor management at any level, just bad luck. I don't really get how we "fail to develop" someone like Matt D'Arcy. He wasn't good enough...what were we meant to do? And how could we make up for the void he left? Manufacture someone else who was?

Talking about not bringing players through etc but ignoring who the incumbents were is ridiculous. The important thing is to make sure the provinces and the Irish squad are well stocked for both the present and the future, and by and large that has been the case for a long time now. The one position where that didn't happen was at tighthead when there was a full blown crisis once Mike Ross went off in Twickenham in 2012 but even then we were unfortunate that Simon Best retired, tried really hard to bring Buckley through, and whatever changed at underage level before that has reaped massive benefits with all the props that have come of the scene since.

[goreyguy]

I just dont get the obsession with us producing internationals rather than even providing them

and youre saying the academy isnt producing scrumhalves then writing a list of them

Its just sheer negativity to say as Luke McGrath is becoming 1st choice 9 to say we're not producing 9's because theyre not playing for Ireland

you can go through pretty much every position in the team and find a significant period where we didnt field purebred Leinster players

Again it's the academies job to produce players of international quality at every position over time. Not every couple of seasons but at least 1 international a decade.

I've listed the scrumhalves thru the academy in recent years.. none of whom as of yet have reached the required level hence the need to sign Reddan & Boss when leinster did. If leinster were producing good scrumhalves but they were blocked by Reddan & Boss then they would be succeeding elsewhere.. that's only happened with Coonly to a degree..

Again I've previously said that leinster may have produced a very good scrum half recently in Luke McGrath we are just waiting to see if that is actually the case at the moment due to injury. I have faith that it will be.

I know you can, however scrumhalf and lock are the worst positions for leinster in terms of developing homegrown talent there.

you seem to want to ignore leinster poor record at developing scrumhalves or write it off as it being a product of leinster having too much talent at the position.. that simply isn't the case, leinster have had to rely on imports for over a decade in order to have a decent scrum half. . This could have not been the case if leinster were better at producing and developing young scrumhalves..

[goreyguy]

players generally dont go straight from provincial academies into the Ireland jersey

we're back to the circuitous argument of we cant produce new internationals and shouldnt expected to be when we have the incumbants; we've had Boss and Reddan for 5 years so there were next to no opportunities for 9s at Leinster as we had the 2nd and 3rd choice (active) Irish internationals, same as we had with centres, and have with hookers, tighthead until recently, we havent produced a new Ireland number 8 for almost 10 years, you cant have a continuous revolution of Leinster producing internationals in the same positions every couple of seasons

youve a choice here: you can blame the academy or blame the senior set up, academy is not going to supply finished products to the senior team, not the academy's fault if MOC say packs off Cooney and ignores McGrath

Brilliantly put.

I don't get it either and I think it's nuts to ignore the injuries to Scally and Willis that I mentioned before. Those don't happen and the situation looks very different, and that's nothing to do with poor management at any level, just bad luck. I don't really get how we "fail to develop" someone like Matt D'Arcy. He wasn't good enough...what were we meant to do? And how could we make up for the void he left? Manufacture someone else who was?

Talking about not bringing players through etc but ignoring who the incumbents were is ridiculous. The important thing is to make sure the provinces and the Irish squad are well stocked for both the present and the future, and by and large that has been the case for a long time now. The one position where that didn't happen was at tighthead when there was a full blown crisis once Mike Ross went off in Twickenham in 2012 but even then we were unfortunate that Simon Best retired, tried really hard to bring Buckley through, and whatever changed at underage level before that has reaped massive benefits with all the props that have come of the scene since.

dbl post

[goreyguy]

players generally dont go straight from provincial academies into the Ireland jersey

we're back to the circuitous argument of we cant produce new internationals and shouldnt expected to be when we have the incumbants; we've had Boss and Reddan for 5 years so there were next to no opportunities for 9s at Leinster as we had the 2nd and 3rd choice (active) Irish internationals, same as we had with centres, and have with hookers, tighthead until recently, we havent produced a new Ireland number 8 for almost 10 years, you cant have a continuous revolution of Leinster producing internationals in the same positions every couple of seasons

youve a choice here: you can blame the academy or blame the senior set up, academy is not going to supply finished products to the senior team, not the academy's fault if MOC say packs off Cooney and ignores McGrath

Brilliantly put.

I don't get it either and I think it's nuts to ignore the injuries to Scally and Willis that I mentioned before. Those don't happen and the situation looks very different, and that's nothing to do with poor management at any level, just bad luck. I don't really get how we "fail to develop" someone like Matt D'Arcy. He wasn't good enough...what were we meant to do? And how could we make up for the void he left? Manufacture someone else who was?

Talking about not bringing players through etc but ignoring who the incumbents were is ridiculous. The important thing is to make sure the provinces and the Irish squad are well stocked for both the present and the future, and by and large that has been the case for a long time now. The one position where that didn't happen was at tighthead when there was a full blown crisis once Mike Ross went off in Twickenham in 2012 but even then we were unfortunate that Simon Best retired, tried really hard to bring Buckley through, and whatever changed at underage level before that has reaped massive benefits with all the props that have come of the scene since.

Not ignoring Scally and Willis I've in fact noted injuries may be the only reason leinster haven't had an international 9 in the last decade. The idea behind the academy is players are developed for the senior team.. it hadn't been doing that to a good enough level at scrumhalf for a long time.. Moore, D'Arcy, O'Donohoe, Cooney, now McGrath are the last 5 scrumhalves thru the academy.. you would have hoped at least 1 would have been good enough to start regularly for leinster.. so far they haven't been able to achieve that and that meant leinster have been relying on imports and players who are clearly aging and slowing down.

When Leinster needed to replace Chris Whitaker they were unable to do so in house and had to sign Reddan.

When Leinster needed to have a good backup scrumhalf they were unable to do so in house and signed Boss.

Now Reddan/Boss are very near the end of their careers and leinster are faced with the prospect of replacing them.. could that be done with leinster produced players? Possibly or will leinster again have to rely on imports to plug holes? Possibly.

I'm not sure how you can claim the Irish squad is well stocked at scrumhalf.. there is a huge drop off after Murray.. if McGrath/Marmion step up in the next 12 months then it will be a better situation. But an injury to Murray now could be a disaster. Again you've pointed to a change at underage levels resulting in better tighthead being produced.. I'm saying that similar has to be done if not already done at scrumhalf to ensure leinster is producing scrumhalves of sufficient quality for the province and national team.

[molloyjh]

That Leinster have struggled to develop talent in the row and at 9 is nothing new to us all. We already know that. But it isn't just a case of Leinster doing more there if we simply don't have guys with ability coming through. Lock for example has fairly specific height requirements and we've struggled to find guys who fit the bill and are good enough. It would seem the same is the case at 9. No amount of coaching for example would have made me pro rugby player. I'd never have been good enough. And if the raw talent isn't there there isn't much the set-up can do about that.

[goreyguy]

That Leinster have struggled to develop talent in the row and at 9 is nothing new to us all. We already know that. But it isn't just a case of Leinster doing more there if we simply don't have guys with ability coming through. Lock for example has fairly specific height requirements and we've struggled to find guys who fit the bill and are good enough. It would seem the same is the case at 9. No amount of coaching for example would have made me pro rugby player. I'd never have been good enough. And if the raw talent isn't there there isn't much the set-up can do about that.

There is plenty of raw talent in the province.. at lock and at scrumhalf and every other position.. it's just getting them the right coaching at a young enough age and allowing players to develop and mature at their own pace. It's leinster rugby's job to identify and nurture this talent working in conjunction with the schools and clubs in the province.

I'd be hopeful that if Leinster invested in Cooney/McGrath/McCarthy/Rock they'd get two quality homegrown scrumhalves for the senior team. If that happens Leinster rugby were able to address the problems they had in the previous decade in terms of developing homegrown quality scrumhalves.

[Oldschoolsocks]

Does nobody else feel that having really bad scrummies like easterby and Whitaker then mediocre ones like boss clogging up the position has been at least a contribution to the lack of development of homegrown scrummies?

[Dave Cahill]

Does nobody else feel that having really bad scrummies like easterby and Whitaker then mediocre ones like boss clogging up the position has been at least a contribution to the lack of development of homegrown scrummies?

No, because Easterby, Whitaker or Boss were good scrum halves, so your entire point is based on a fallacy.

[curates_egg]

Does nobody else feel that having really bad scrummies like easterby and Whitaker then mediocre ones like boss clogging up the position has been at least a contribution to the lack of development of homegrown scrummies?

No, because Easterby, Whitaker or Boss were good scrum halves, so your entire point is based on a fallacy.

Nah.Whitaker was rubbish. He only managed 31 caps despite playing with Australia at the same time as some useless guy I've never heard of called Gregan.
Boss comes in for a serious amount of stick on here but he was a major factor in our second Heineken Cup and was the form scrum half in Ireland that year IMO and should have played a major part in the world cup...but Kidney. Got injured the following year if memory serves.

The question I have to ask is: why are you all shiteing on about scrum halves on this thread and not the one about McGrath and Cooney, which briefly resurfaced this week?

[OTT]

Does nobody else feel that having really bad scrummies like easterby and Whitaker then mediocre ones like boss clogging up the position has been at least a contribution to the lack of development of homegrown scrummies?

Very harsh on all three, who were very good players for Leinster.


As already acknowledged by gg Scally (definitely had it) and Willis (might have had it) and both were robbed of decent careers by injury so we had to look elsewhere, thats potentially 17 years of rugby there with Willis still young anough to have a few more years left. You take Reddan and Boss away (and Whits in 09) from the last few seasons we would have probably developed a Leinster branded academy scrum half who would have an Irish cap but we would probably have zero Heineken Cups as a result. You have to be sensible, McGrath and Cooney could definitely be further on their way at this stage but neither are near where Reddan and Boss package were for us in their prime. As molloyj said you cannot make someone brilliant, you can develop them and give them opportunities which should have happened earlier with McGrath but its up to him to take his chances which he has been doing this season. We did not develop an outside centre either over this decade we inherited a superstar who played for Ireland before he did Leinster but the stats wont say that it will say Leinster contributed the Irish No.13 for 15 years. Sometimes guys come through like we think they will eg Ringrose and sometimes they dont eg Macken everything cannot be blamed on bad development.

[Oldschoolsocks]

Does nobody else feel that having really bad scrummies like easterby and Whitaker then mediocre ones like boss clogging up the position has been at least a contribution to the lack of development of homegrown scrummies?

No, because Easterby, Whitaker or Boss were good scrum halves, so your entire point is based on a fallacy.

Guy, let me read the paper here, Easterby cmon Dave, he was cr@p. And as for crab across the field Whitaker cmon seriously.

[simonokeeffe]

The Academy (is one of the tools that) produces players for Leinster, Leinster then produces players for Ireland; you wouldnt blame your primary school for your leaving cert results

We've had bad luck with injuries, some guys didnt take a chance, some guys didnt get a fair break, some left of their own volition. Cant blame the academy for that
If we're going to be that harsh on the academy by that standard we should build statues of the academy for getting Noel Reid capped

The Leisnter produced 9 has been a question for years, but coaches on 2 or 3 year deals cant be expected to throw out quality NIQs or proven Irish internationals to purify the team. Signing any non academy player in a certain position is going to run a chance of perpetuating the issue though eg outhalf pre Sexton

[Dave Cahill]

Guy, let me read the paper here, Easterby cmon Dave, he was cr@p. And as for crab across the field Whitaker cmon seriously.

No, he wasn't. I know (not suspect, know) that Kidney got his tame journos to do Easterby in the media after EOS dropped Stringer, that doesn't mean you have to believe it.

A narrative was constructed in the Irish media around scrum half play in the early noughties that has blighted the position ever since, all to justify Li'l Sebastian getting his game.

[goreyguy]

The Academy (is one of the tools that) produces players for Leinster, Leinster then produces players for Ireland; you wouldnt blame your primary school for your leaving cert results

We've had bad luck with injuries, some guys didnt take a chance, some guys didnt get a fair break, some left of their own volition. Cant blame the academy for that
If we're going to be that harsh on the academy by that standard we should build statues of the academy for getting Noel Reid capped

The Leisnter produced 9 has been a question for years, but coaches on 2 or 3 year deals cant be expected to throw out quality NIQs or proven Irish internationals to purify the team. Signing any non academy player in a certain position is going to run a chance of perpetuating the issue though eg outhalf pre Sexton

the academy is the main "tool" for producing players for leinster, it bridges the gap between club rugby and pro rugby.. it's job is to produce quality professional players.. something it is quite good at..

again i'm really not sure what your point is.. leinster rugby has failed to produce a quality homegrown scrumhalf in the pro era, injury being a factor but also poor player development at the position.. that might change with Luke McGrath but it's an undeniable fact that it was a problem position for Leinster rugby for many years. The academy takes some of the blame for that, along with the underage setup below that, and the senior team setup above that. Which is what I've been saying: Leinster rugby as a whole have had a problem when it comes scrumhalf identification and development for the past decade.

Maybe if Cooney returns from Connacht or McGrath takes his opportunity this will become a non issue and leinster will have addressed this problem. Or maybe leinster will again have to rely on an import to cover up the problems they've had at developing a scrumhalf.

[bronxbull]

15.Rob Kearney
14.Isa Nacewa
13.Gary Ringrose
12.Ben T'eo
11.Luke Fitzgerald
10.Jonathan Sexton

Isa and Luke can obviously play anywhere across the back three and could switch but Luke is very left footed and 11 may suit him better, more so than centre.
I would have no problem with Isa playing full back or left wing.
We have options with Dave Kearney, Zane Kirchner, Fergus McFadden and Ian Madigan
but I think these players selected are better in the positions I have chosen.
Ian Madigan can obviously play 12 but at this stage I would primarily use him as a 10,
starting or on the bench.

[simonokeeffe]

The Academy (is one of the tools that) produces players for Leinster, Leinster then produces players for Ireland; you wouldnt blame your primary school for your leaving cert results

We've had bad luck with injuries, some guys didnt take a chance, some guys didnt get a fair break, some left of their own volition. Cant blame the academy for that
If we're going to be that harsh on the academy by that standard we should build statues of the academy for getting Noel Reid capped

The Leisnter produced 9 has been a question for years, but coaches on 2 or 3 year deals cant be expected to throw out quality NIQs or proven Irish internationals to purify the team. Signing any non academy player in a certain position is going to run a chance of perpetuating the issue though eg outhalf pre Sexton

the academy is the main "tool" for producing players for leinster, it bridges the gap between club rugby and pro rugby.. it's job is to produce quality professional players.. something it is quite good at..

again i'm really not sure what your point is.. leinster rugby has failed to produce a quality homegrown scrumhalf in the pro era, injury being a factor but also poor player development at the position.. that might change with Luke McGrath but it's an undeniable fact that it was a problem position for Leinster rugby for many years. The academy takes some of the blame for that, along with the underage setup below that, and the senior team setup above that. Which is what I've been saying: Leinster rugby as a whole have had a problem when it comes scrumhalf identification and development for the past decade.

Maybe if Cooney returns from Connacht or McGrath takes his opportunity this will become a non issue and leinster will have addressed this problem. Or maybe leinster will again have to rely on an import to cover up the problems they've had at developing a scrumhalf.

my point is the academy cant be blamed for everything, if Leinster are providing Irish internationals in a position what does it matter where they played when they were 20, and McGrath has just become the first first choice homegrown 9 for ages, so if we're going to moan about that ie a problem that appears to have been solved then why not our reliance on non home grown tightheads for so long, hookers, tighthead locks? And Chris Whittaker was an integral part of our first Heineken Cup win