What is your prefered backline for the rest of the season?

[goreyguy]

Leinster rugby quite clearly have a problem at developing scrumhalves.. hence the lack of leinster produced scrumhalves playing for ireland in the professional era.

Leinster's reliance on imports at the position has been quite clear.

[leinsterforever]

Ultimately, I think Leinster should be working towards a backline of 15 Kearney, 14 Kearney, 13 Ringrose, 12 Fitzgerald, 11 Kelleher, 10 Sexton, 9 McGrath. I guess I'd have Isa at 11 for this season, with Zane and McFadden starting some games and benching a bit. Reddan and McGrath are close. They should both see plenty of action, and who starts when we're looking to put out our strongest side should depend on form. I'd like to see Marsh get some more gametime this season, with Madigan leaving. Te'o, in my opinion, should only be used when the other guys need a break

[molloyjh]

Leinster rugby quite clearly have a problem at developing scrumhalves.. hence the lack of leinster produced scrumhalves playing for ireland in the professional era.

Leinster's reliance on imports at the position has been quite clear.

Your original post suggested we were having trouble developing them because we weren't giving them game time. Could it be that for a large period of time we simply didn't have anyone good enough?

[simonokeeffe]

Leinster rugby quite clearly have a problem at developing scrumhalves.. hence the lack of leinster produced scrumhalves playing for ireland in the professional era.

Leinster's reliance on imports at the position has been quite clear.

but we've produced plenty of scrumhalves who've played pro rugby here and elsewhere

its a very high bar to say playing for Ireland is the standard the academy should be judged by

[goreyguy]

Leinster rugby quite clearly have a problem at developing scrumhalves.. hence the lack of leinster produced scrumhalves playing for ireland in the professional era.

Leinster's reliance on imports at the position has been quite clear.

but we've produced plenty of scrumhalves who've played pro rugby here and elsewhere

its a very high bar to say playing for Ireland is the standard the academy should be judged by

Have we produced a 1st choice Leinster scrumhalf in the last decade? Maybe we have now with McGrath but up to until this point we haven't.

the idea of the academy is to produce internationals, we've done it in almost every position in the past decade bar scrumhalf.. it's a weakness that needs to be addressed as much as our problems at lock.

[cormac]

Leinster rugby quite clearly have a problem at developing scrumhalves.. hence the lack of leinster produced scrumhalves playing for ireland in the professional era.

Leinster's reliance on imports at the position has been quite clear.

Is it a development problem within Leinster or is it simply a lack of decent talent. Ciaran Scally is the last scrum-half to come through the Leinster system to start a game for Ireland and we're coming up on 17 years since that match against Italy in April 1999. Of course he had the potential to have been Leinster's starting no.9 for a decade or more had injury not intervened, but looking at the Leinster-born/developed players who've played scrum-half for us since, it's not a great list. (total Leinster appearances in brackets)

Brian O'Riordan (45)
Luke McGrath (36)
Chris Keane (28)
John Cooney (28)
Cillian Willis (18)
Paul O'Donohoe (18)
Derek Hegarty (16)
Nick McCarthy (2)
Shane Whelan (1)

McGrath is probably the best of a pretty average bunch and I don't recall any of them going on to great careers at other clubs.

[goreyguy]

Leinster rugby quite clearly have a problem at developing scrumhalves.. hence the lack of leinster produced scrumhalves playing for ireland in the professional era.

Leinster's reliance on imports at the position has been quite clear.

Your original post suggested we were having trouble developing them because we weren't giving them game time. Could it be that for a large period of time we simply didn't have anyone good enough?

we aren't producing them for several reasons.. lack of senior gametime, poor talent identification and development at underage levels etc etc.

we may have had players not good enough, but then we need to address why that is.. we've produced more ireland u20 scrumhalves that anyone else, why isn't that being translated to the senior team?

[goreyguy]

Leinster rugby quite clearly have a problem at developing scrumhalves.. hence the lack of leinster produced scrumhalves playing for ireland in the professional era.

Leinster's reliance on imports at the position has been quite clear.

Is it a development problem within Leinster or is it simply a lack of decent talent. Ciaran Scally is the last scrum-half to come through the Leinster system to start a game for Ireland and we're coming up on 17 years since that match against Italy in April 1999. Of course he had the potential to have been Leinster's starting no.9 for a decade or more had injury not intervened, but looking at the Leinster-born/developed players who've played scrum-half for us since, it's not a great list. (total Leinster appearances in brackets)

Brian O'Riordan (45)
Luke McGrath (36)
Chris Keane (28)
John Cooney (28)
Cillian Willis (18)
Paul O'Donohoe (18)
Derek Hegarty (16)
Nick McCarthy (2)
Shane Whelan (1)

McGrath is probably the best of a pretty average bunch and I don't recall any of them going on to great careers at other clubs.

None of them did.. Cooney is probably the best of the ones who've left.

The lack of talent was and perhaps remains a leinster rugby development problem.. poor talent identification, poor talent development at every level.

But there is plenty of raw talent in the province, it just needs to be identified, coached and invested in..
I have hopes that a trio of Cooney/McGrath/McCarthy will produce an irish international and a good backup scrumhalf if given a serious chance to play by Leinster next season.

[cormac]

I don't think it's just a Leinster problem though. We seem to struggle to produce scrum-halves in this country and only Munster have produced any of note so far this century. Colin Patterson and John Robbie were the last Irish scrum-halves to start a test for the Lions and that was back in 1980. Only Conor Murray has gone close since.

Since Scally started his last match for Ireland, we've played 187 full international matches. In 171 of those we've started with a scrum-half who learned/started their trade at Munster (Tierney, Stringer, Reddan, O'Leary and Murray). The only other scrum-halves to start are Easterby (7), Boss (8) and Kieron Campbell (1).

Perhaps the IRFU need to conduct a root-and-branch review of why we've produced so few good scrum-halves in the last 30 years.

In terms of Leinster scrum-halves featuring regularly at under-age for Ireland, I think that's more of a function of Leinster's under-age system simply being better than the others for at least the last decade. The players, especially the ones in the big Leinster schools, are in a better development programme than their peers at other provinces and that can result in some fairly average players getting picked at international underage level.

[simonokeeffe]

Leinster academy is to produce players for Leinster

there's four provinces to produce players for Ireland

[goreyguy]

Leinster academy is to produce players for Leinster

there's four provinces to produce players for Ireland

you are naive to think the academy isn't meant to produce internationals.. how many scrumhalves has the academy produced for Leinster?

[goreyguy]

I don't think it's just a Leinster problem though. We seem to struggle to produce scrum-halves in this country and only Munster have produced any of note so far this century. Colin Patterson and John Robbie were the last Irish scrum-halves to start a test for the Lions and that was back in 1980. Only Conor Murray has gone close since.

Since Scally started his last match for Ireland, we've played 187 full international matches. In 171 of those we've started with a scrum-half who learned/started their trade at Munster (Tierney, Stringer, Reddan, O'Leary and Murray). The only other scrum-halves to start are Easterby (7), Boss (8) and Kieron Campbell (1).

Perhaps the IRFU need to conduct a root-and-branch review of why we've produced so few good scrum-halves in the last 30 years.

In terms of Leinster scrum-halves featuring regularly at under-age for Ireland, I think that's more of a function of Leinster's under-age system simply being better than the others for at least the last decade. The players, especially the ones in the big Leinster schools, are in a better development programme than their peers at other provinces and that can result in some fairly average players getting picked at international underage level.

I agree that the country as a whole struggles to produce scrumhalves, although Munster had a good run there a decade or so ago, plus Murray now.
You have a point on the schools, but those schools should be an aid in developing scrumhalves not a hindrance. They've largely helped produce excellent players at most positions for Leinster.

You'd think a professional organization known for developing it's own indigenous talent would be able to develop a good player at scrumhalf over the course of a decade. There has been improvements in talent development in most positions - so hopefully it's a matter of time before leinster have a 1st choice scrumhalf who has come through the system.. I still think that player will be Luke McGrath, if he is given the chance.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

I was going to mention Scally and Cillian Willis too. I know you're going back a long time with both of them but if Scally's knee hadn't been made of paper then he'd have been first choice for at least a decade. Pretty sure he was the same vintage as Stringer and he's even still playing now. That would put a totally different complexion on things.

Maybe others weren't as convinced by Willis but I thought he was great before he first popped his shoulder so we were really unlucky there too. Those two would actually make things look grand.

In terms of messing up development the two that might possibly fall into that category are Dave Moore and POD. Both looked really good in school and looked like they could dovetail perfectly for Leinster but it just didn't happen. I do feel we missed opportunities there although I won't pretend to know what could have been done differently.

[erskinechilders]

I think we have some decent scrum-halves now though. If we give McGrath, McCarthy & Rock a decent chance, whilst under the guidance of Boss & Reddan, I think it will only be a matter of time before they start performing at the highest level. McGrath's pass needs working on but imo he is probably the only with the potential to push Murray for that starting jersey.

[goreyguy]

I was going to mention Scally and Cillian Willis too. I know you're going back a long time with both of them but if Scally's knee hadn't been made of paper then he'd have been first choice for at least a decade. Pretty sure he was the same vintage as Stringer and he's even still playing now. That would put a totally different complexion on things.

Maybe others weren't as convinced by Willis but I thought he was great before he first popped his shoulder so we were really unlucky there too. Those two would actually make things look grand.

In terms of messing up development the two that might possibly fall into that category are Dave Moore and POD. Both looked really good in school and looked like they could dovetail perfectly for Leinster but it just didn't happen. I do feel we missed opportunities there although I won't pretend to know what could have been done differently.

I rated Willis, health was the problem obviously. Never seen Scally but another case of what if his knee hadn't blown up.

Moore, POD, Cooney.. now we are onto McGrath, who has looked good enough this season, despite some people thinking he can't pass to a high enough standard.

I'd rate Cooney as one of the better irish scrumhalves currently playing in the country, so getting him back and combing him with McGrath.. seems like a good plan, if they fail to step up then emergency action can be taken.

McCarthy? Rock? Very hard to say right now if either will be able to step up when called upon.. although if Rock was 5'9 instead of 5'5 i'd have high hopes for him.

Below that it doesn't look like Leinster will have an irish u20 scrumhalf this season and the next player to join the academy at the position is somewhat unclear right now. Maybe Dave Duggan(u19)

[rdsblue]

I agree with GG re McGrath. I think he's the best Leinster scrumhalf prospect since Scally who had everything (except luck). Would also agree with his backline apart from DK who I think has totally lost confidence since his RWC nightmare. Ferg is not playing too well either and it might be no harm to try Te'o on the wing to try and get some value from him before he becomes a Wuss.
My preferred backline:-

9. Luke McGrath
10. Jonathan Sexton
11. Isa Nacewa
12. Luke Fitzgerald
13. Garry Ringrose
14. Fergus McFadden / Ben Te'o
15. Rob Kearney

[Flash Gordon]

Luke Fitz plus some other guys. The form back in Ireland (and I'm including Stu Mac oop north in that).

Yeah he looks the business alright but he hasn't scored a try this season and he only scored one last season. For me he's playing out of position in a system that isn't working. To be honest, the discussion on the best players is a bit irrelevant till we figure out an attack plan!

[neiliog93]

9.Reddan (if his form stays good as it has been in the last couple of matches, if he's as poor as the start of the season or anything close to it then McGrath)
10.Sexton
12.Te'o
13.Ringrose
14.Kirchner

11.Fitzgerald 15.R.Kearney

21.McGrath/Reddan
22.Madigan
23.D.Kearney/McFadden

I've been very negative about Kirchner at times but he was one of our best players against Munster and DK still mixes the good with the truly awful far too regularly for my liking. One massive brainfart per game almost. Ferg is a solid operator who punches above his weight physically but is pushing 30 now. Rob's form is unspectacular, there's an argument for putting Kirchner in his best position at fullback and then starting with Ferg or DK on the vacated wing spot.

Te'o has shown recently that he can function well at 12 and is simply a superb athlete that we must take advantage of. Ringrose has earned a run of games at 13 and wasn't out of his depth at all against Munster. We have nothing left to lose in the H Cup and the prospect of Ringrose having to square off against 107kg and 125kg monsters as was the case with Toulon is now gone. Luke has been good at 12 or 13 but his pace, footwork and natural finishing are best utilised on the wing IMO. He's also a bit less likely to get injured out there.

[simonokeeffe]

Leinster academy is to produce players for Leinster

there's four provinces to produce players for Ireland

you are naive to think the academy isn't meant to produce internationals.. how many scrumhalves has the academy produced for Leinster?

players generally dont go straight from provincial academies into the Ireland jersey

we're back to the circuitous argument of we cant produce new internationals and shouldnt expected to be when we have the incumbants; we've had Boss and Reddan for 5 years so there were next to no opportunities for 9s at Leinster as we had the 2nd and 3rd choice (active) Irish internationals, same as we had with centres, and have with hookers, tighthead until recently, we havent produced a new Ireland number 8 for almost 10 years, you cant have a continuous revolution of Leinster producing internationals in the same positions every couple of seasons

youve a choice here: you can blame the academy or blame the senior set up, academy is not going to supply finished products to the senior team, not the academy's fault if MOC say packs off Cooney and ignores McGrath

[goreyguy]

Leinster academy is to produce players for Leinster

there's four provinces to produce players for Ireland

you are naive to think the academy isn't meant to produce internationals.. how many scrumhalves has the academy produced for Leinster?

players generally dont go straight from provincial academies into the Ireland jersey

we're back to the circuitous argument of we cant produce new internationals and shouldnt expected to be when we have the incumbants; we've had Boss and Reddan for 5 years so there were next to no opportunities for 9s at Leinster as we had the 2nd and 3rd choice (active) Irish internationals, same as we had with centres, and have with hookers, tighthead until recently, we havent produced a new Ireland number 8 for almost 10 years, you cant have a continuous revolution of Leinster producing internationals in the same positions every couple of seasons

youve a choice here: you can blame the academy or blame the senior set up, academy is not going to supply finished products to the senior team, not the academy's fault if MOC say packs off Cooney and ignores McGrath

When were Reddan and Boss signed? 2009 and 2010?
At that stage Leinster had failed to develop:
Cillian Willis, leaving for Ulster in 2008. At the age of 23.
Matt Darcy, leaving for Doncaster in the summer of 2008. At the age of 22.
Dave Moore, leaving for Harlequins in the summer of 2010 when Boss was brought in. At the age of 22.
Paul O'Donohue, leaving for Connacht in 2011. At the age of 24.

So when Reddan was brought in Leinster had failed to bring through Willis and Darcy in the previous few seasons and had a 21 year old Moore and a 22 year old O'Donohue on the books. The next summer, they brought in Boss while having failed to bring through both Moore and O'Donohue.

Now with two mid 30's scrumhalves Leinster may fail again..

Also I'd argue if Cooney has been given sufficient gametime, trust and coaching he would have bypassed Boss in recent seasons. It's not like Boss has been excellent scrumhalves the past two or three seasons, he has been average one.

Leinster haven't produced any internationals at scrumhalf.. it's not too much to ask to produce one homegrown player to step up to the senior team when there has been a need there multiple times.