Big Marty off to Wasps?

[Flash Gordon]

Teams from other Unions is a pipe dream unless we get the whole Union. We won't get English or French teams in unless they can somehow break from their Union and set up a new one or join one of the existing Pro12 ones. And that isn't going to happen.

There's already an Exiles team in England. There are no state legal reasons why an Irish Exiles or London Irish couldn't play in the Pro 12 - not sure if there are IRB rules. It's certainly happened in soccer, cricket and rugby League.

The other alternative is that we play in the Premiership or a European League. If was running Leinster and looking at the earnings disparity and the cmmercial reality of that, I'd definitely be looking at that possibility.

The Union has to agree to it - all teams and games must be sanctioned by the union responsible for the area the game is played in and the team operates in. So in this case the RFU would have to agree to a team playing in a league that is in competition to its own league and taking money, support and players out of its control.

Which they did in the 90's when the Exiles played in the interpros wearing an absolutely fantastic shirt I might add!! The Exiles continue to operate at under age level of course.

Is this rule you're talking about an RFU one? An IRB one or what? AS it stands, it would be illegal to inhibit the establishment of a commercial operation by an Irish operation in England.

Not necessarily sure that an Exiles franchise in England would be all downside. Generally, more people watching, playing and involved with the game is a good thing, after all the principle rival to English club rugby isn't other rugby, its soccer (as the Welsh will tell you!).

The other options are, of course, an Anglo Irish League or an expanded European competition. I said this a few years ago, that's a conversation Leinster and Munster should have been pro-actively approaching before the whole Champions Cup debacle.

[riocard911]

Here's the latest test balloon - an increased Super League with ourselves, Scots, Welsh, Saffers and Argies in an Atlantic Conference and the Kiwis, Ozzies and Japs in a Pacific one. Don't know if it's feasible, but it might be good to have all the countries and leagues, whose players are being pilfered by the AP and the Top 14, join forces!!!

https://www.balls.ie/rugby/new-cross-he ... rts/346474

[Dave Cahill]

The Exiles played in the interpros in the amateur era, pre 'open game' . Since then they've operated at underage level, which is, of course, also amateur.

Its a World Rugby regulation.

There are lots of things that are legal in the real world, the world of business and other spheres that are not permitted in rugby, and vice versa. Ruan Pienaar can never play for Ireland - thats discrimination surely? No, because Sport is allowed discriminate. As it stands it is entirely legal for the RFU to inhibit the establishment of a commercial operation by an Irish operation in England and entirely illegal for the irish operation to attempt to establish itself in England.

When the IRFU, RFU, NZRU etc joined the International Board/IRB/World Rugby, they agreed to operate under a set of regulations - any union can break those regulations, but they have to suffer the consequences. One of those requlations prevents unions from doing certain things in other unions baliwicks without that unions permission.

[molloyjh]

Which they did in the 90's when the Exiles played in the interpros wearing an absolutely fantastic shirt I might add!! The Exiles continue to operate at under age level of course.

Is this rule you're talking about an RFU one? An IRB one or what? AS it stands, it would be illegal to inhibit the establishment of a commercial operation by an Irish operation in England.

Not necessarily sure that an Exiles franchise in England would be all downside. Generally, more people watching, playing and involved with the game is a good thing, after all the principle rival to English club rugby isn't other rugby, its soccer (as the Welsh will tell you!).

The other options are, of course, an Anglo Irish League or an expanded European competition. I said this a few years ago, that's a conversation Leinster and Munster should have been pro-actively approaching before the whole Champions Cup debacle.

It's a World Rugby law. And it's worth noting that sport is viewed quite differently to general commercial matters in law. There are overlaps, but generally speaking courts are hesitant to apply commercial law to sports. It's called the primacy of sport, or something like that.

At the end of the day England and France both have captive markets that they can exploit. They are not going to willingly share that with others when they don't have to. So things like Anglo-Irish leagues or a SR type European cup are also pipe dreams. They will either reduce the revenue to the private clubs in England and France or reduce the disparity between them and us, making us more competitive and them less dominant. Why would they choose that?

The only way that an Exiles team would work would be if we could set up a club in England under the control of one of the Pro12 Unions. We would need RFU approval to do this. And this would have the effect of funnelling talent away from the English national side. So again, why would they do that?

At the end of the day the simple fact is that we will find no answers to our problems in England or France unless we can get their markets to buy into our product. We will not join them, we will not get teams from their countries. And for as long as our product appears to be an inferior version of their own we won't be able to sell ourselves to their market. Given the size and nature of our domestic markets we really need to be looking at market expansion for revenue. But to do that we have to have something worth selling.

[molloyjh]

Here's the latest test balloon - an increased Super League with ourselves, Scots, Welsh, Saffers and Argies in an Atlantic Conference and the Kiwis, Ozzies and Japs in a Pacific one. Don't know if it's feasible, but it might be good to have all the countries and leagues, whose players are being pilfered by the AP and the Top 14, join forces!!!

https://www.balls.ie/rugby/new-cross-he ... rts/346474

Without a true global calendar I can't see that working. And even with a true global calendar I wouldn't want it to. It's bad enough that we have to travel internationally to attend league games unlike the English or French. To have to do long haul flights to follow your team? No thanks. We'd just end up with a load of dead games (atmosphere wise). And we've enough of those as it is.

It is great that they are looking at a load of options, but we need to realistic logistically.

[simonokeeffe]

a big fancy European or B & I super league would bring good money but would be on BT and copperfasten 6n as 2 tier

[Flash Gordon]

The Exiles played in the interpros in the amateur era, pre 'open game' . Since then they've operated at underage level, which is, of course, also amateur.

Its a World Rugby regulation.

There are lots of things that are legal in the real world, the world of business and other spheres that are not permitted in rugby, and vice versa. Ruan Pienaar can never play for Ireland - thats discrimination surely? No, because Sport is allowed discriminate. As it stands it is entirely legal for the RFU to inhibit the establishment of a commercial operation by an Irish operation in England and entirely illegal for the irish operation to attempt to establish itself in England.

When the IRFU, RFU, NZRU etc joined the International Board/IRB/World Rugby, they agreed to operate under a set of regulations - any union can break those regulations, but they have to suffer the consequences. One of those requlations prevents unions from doing certain things in other unions baliwicks without that unions permission.

The allowed discrimination is based upon voluntarism though really - Bosman being a case that springs to mind. I agree that there is the danger of possible pay back - the 6 Nations and the Champions Cup being the obvious target in negotiations.

Maybe you talk to the RFU or there's a deal required - maybe the pay off is an Anglo Pro 12 cup competition. Or you pursue a B&I option or an expanded European competition.

I like that the Pro 12 is trying to think a bit differently than they have - the marquee final, even looking at games abroad etc. But we need more of that and for us to get to a level where we are competitive we have to lead the agenda more. In my opinion, that would have been a lot easier when us and Munster were the best teams in Europe but we sat on our hands expecting everything to stay the same (which it never does) and unfortunately it was he English who introduced the game changer, not us!

[Dirk Stickler]

While I admire the willingness to think outside the box, I think the issue is a tad simpler. To quote the great Bonnie Raitt "I can't make you love me if you don't".

The competition should work a lot better than it does in it's current format.

I re-iterate the issue with the Welsh. Their players/ supporters don't care that much (Ospreys probably deserve a pass). I understand there are issues with how the regions were formed but what is Cardiff's excuse for being so consistently meh? It's not like they've been channeling their energies toward Europe.

The Scottish sides do deserve credit. Glasgow are fantastic & Edinburgh are moving to Myreside soon, which can only help.

The Italian clubs offer nothing to the comp.

I've no idea how the American thing would work and I do give them credit for attempting to think outside the box but the Prem & Top14 work because people involved really care about it. We've got about 4/5 teams in the Pro 12 that want it to work and that's it.

It's a hell of a lot easier to get fans to care about a league that they grew up with and to support teams that they grew up with. People pointing fingers at the Welsh have to realise that a huge proportion of a Regions fan base would have grown up as rivals. The Regions mean little or nothing to them because, unlike the Provinces, they never existed before and so people never had a connection with them. Hell, even if the provincial teams hadn't been around before at least we still have a definitive and existing geographic link to them. The Regions are totally artificial. How can that not impact the support? The whole set-up in Wales has been poisonous with the constant in-fighting and division. Hopefully the latest deal between the Union and the Regions will start to see that all bed down a bit.

But even if we get the Welsh interested and competitive we still have the issue of the number of games without the top players. We still have the issue of revenue (and TV revenue won't match the English or French due to the very nature of the league). And all of that feeds into the issue of competitiveness in Europe. We can continue playing the exact same format as the AP (and pretty much the same format as the T14) but that just highlights those issues we have. If we offer something completely different it might help to invigorate the competition and increase external interest in it.

I understand that there are issues with the way the Welsh regions were formed. Although, as far as I know Cardiff have always been Cardiff.

Saying that, you do get the feeling that if the Welsh regions were put in to the English league (Championship or Premiership) that the Welsh supporters would suddenly care a lot more about their sides.

I’m not saying the solution is straightforward, I’m saying the problem is.

If the Welsh teams/ fans cared as much as the Irish sides/ supporters do then I believe the competition would be improved dramatically.

[Dave Cahill]

The allowed discrimination is based upon voluntarism though really

Yes, that and if you went ahead and did it anyway, you'd have no players, no one to play against, no where to play, no sponsors, no competition, no media and no name for your new sport.

Good luck with that!

[Dirk Stickler]

Rome wasn't built in a day but I think the Pro12 could probably organise a decent youtube channel in 24 hours.

The standard of Pro12 content provided for those who are actually going looking for it is ridiculous.

[Dave Cahill]

Rome wasn't built in a day but I think the Pro12 could probably organise a decent youtube channel in 24 hours.

The standard of Pro12 content provided for those who are actually going looking for it is ridiculous.

Do you mean ridiculous good or ridiculous bad?

[riocard911]

Rome wasn't built in a day but I think the Pro12 could probably organise a decent youtube channel in 24 hours.

The standard of Pro12 content provided for those who are actually going looking for it is ridiculous.

Do you mean ridiculous good or ridiculous bad?

Certainly the online product offered on the Pro 12 YouTube channel - 2 to three minute match highlights - is inferior to that of the AP, where you get 10 minutes approx.

[Dave Cahill]

I don't use it very much to be honest, I'm lucky enough to be able to watch most games in their entirety most weekends, but if I had to, I'd certainly prefer the longer form. That has sparked an idea....

[molloyjh]

I understand that there are issues with the way the Welsh regions were formed. Although, as far as I know Cardiff have always been Cardiff.

Saying that, you do get the feeling that if the Welsh regions were put in to the English league (Championship or Premiership) that the Welsh supporters would suddenly care a lot more about their sides.

I’m not saying the solution is straightforward, I’m saying the problem is.

If the Welsh teams/ fans cared as much as the Irish sides/ supporters do then I believe the competition would be improved dramatically.

Cardiff Blues covers more than just Cardiff though. Quite a lot more actually. And the fact that Cardiff is even in the name of the side has been the source of a lot of issues there. Because it isn't just Cardiff. It would be like taking a random collection of counties in Ireland (not along existing provincial lines) including Dublin and calling the team they make up the Dublin Lions. How would that fly here do you think?

Getting the other teams on board would certainly help the competition. But how do you do that? Tell them to like it? You have to incentivise them in some way. They don't like it for numerous reasons. Some within the control of the Pro12 and some not. I've often seen them moan about the fact that Irish teams so often send over second string sides without their internationals for example. There are issues with the fact that BBC Wales provide so much of the revenue to the Pro12 and the Irish TV rights are worth far less by comparison. So how do we get them on board?

[molloyjh]

Certainly the online product offered on the Pro 12 YouTube channel - 2 to three minute match highlights - is inferior to that of the AP, where you get 10 minutes approx.

The 6 Nations extended highlights would be a good model to follow as well.

A couple of years ago when it was the Rabo they actually started doing great work on the YouTube channel. They were uploading big moments (not just scores) within minutes of them happening in games. And IIRC the highlights packages were significantly better too. It's frustrating that they've dropped off as much as they have. And the music in place of the commentary lately.......

[Dirk Stickler]

Certainly the online product offered on the Pro 12 YouTube channel - 2 to three minute match highlights - is inferior to that of the AP, where you get 10 minutes approx.

The 6 Nations extended highlights would be a good model to follow as well.

A couple of years ago when it was the Rabo they actually started doing great work on the YouTube channel. They were uploading big moments (not just scores) within minutes of them happening in games. And IIRC the highlights packages were significantly better too. It's frustrating that they've dropped off as much as they have. And the music in place of the commentary lately.......

The highlights used to be great (if a little brief) and uploaded reasonably close to the end of the game.

The Leinster match was on Friday and didn't get uploaded until yesterday morning.

[Dave Cahill]

That delay could be part of one of the broadcasting deals though (I don't know, but its not unusual) - doesn't ScrumV go out on a Sunday night in Wales?

[Dirk Stickler]

That delay could be part of one of the broadcasting deals though (I don't know, but its not unusual) - doesn't ScrumV go out on a Sunday night in Wales?

Very possible but it didn't used to be the case.

[riocard911]

You can hear the Irish language commentary again, buíochas le Dia, after me gettin on to them....

[Flash Gordon]

The allowed discrimination is based upon voluntarism though really

Yes, that and if you went ahead and did it anyway, you'd have no players, no one to play against, no where to play, no sponsors, no competition, no media and no name for your new sport.

Good luck with that!

Nobody was suggesting breaking away unilaterally. Clearly you work a deal to form a league. You use the deal to set up the league or as a negotiating tool. Limited overs/T20 cricket which plays to massive audiences and in which players make premiership soccer money in a sport where they had to work as butchers/bakers/candlestick makers during the off season to survive all started with an Australian going "f%~k the rules".

To a certain extent that's what happened with the Champions Cup - clearly everything ECR didn't sanction the Champions Cup, they just ignored the ECR and went ahead and did their own thing.

I think if we think of the future of Leinster or the Pro 12 within a framework of current constraints we are totally focked.