Big Marty off to Wasps?

[jezzer]

Purely in the interests of nosiness I went over to the Wasps forum to have a gander at what they're saying. One poster stuck up 'Supposedly Leinster offered 2 year contract worth €90K and Wasps a 3 year £160K'. Taking the usual pinch of salt those figures look tiny for a player with Moore's potential.

remember when the THP was many team's best paid player?

The Bull is still chuckling.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

WTF does David Nucifora actually do?

I'll tell you what he doesn't do. He doesn't put a gun to players heads and tell them their only options are Irish provinces and they aren't allowed to go elsewhere. Mainly because that would be, you know, against the law.

I have to laugh at how people hear rumours like this (and that's all this is) and start lashing out at people. Nucifora seems to be the flavour of the month in that regard.

Was thinking the same thing.

It's also one of the aims of these agent driven articles. Nobody has criticised Marty yet because this has been spun by his side. Now I don't think he should be criticised for potentially leaving, but I would criticise him/his agent for planting the article, really don't like this kind of thing and suspect the IRFU will be pissed off too because there had definitely been a reduction in these articles since Nucifora took over, hardly coincidental. If the IRFU had planted an article instead then it would be Marty and his agent bearing the brunt of it.

People often talk about now we can't compete with the money abroad, but then lose sight of it when it becomes a "reality" and suddenly it's Nucifora's fault rather than a player just wanting more money. I know the article mentions the length of the contract rather than money, but it'd be pretty naive to think that he's not trying to get more money too.

Even just look at the wording in the first couple of paragraphs...Thornley says that he's "in the verge of leaving" and "likely to be confirmed in the next couple of weeks"...before saying "has agreed to join"...well which is it? Is it a done deal or not?

[Flash Gordon]

The sensible move is to transfer Rossy back to Munster for 2 years (ie better deal than he's on) and keep Moore at Leinster for 3.

Would be pissed off if he goes. Furlong is a complete beast, but we need two good THPs and we're letting a great one walk out the door. If I thought we were getting a world class young 9 or lock with the money we saved, it might help the disappointment. But we won't.

Leinster has taken over from Connacht as the country's development province. That's just the fact of it. Munster isn't developing anyone worth wanting. Taking a Connacht player is tantamount to *** Edited by mod *** and the IRFU seem to be happy with most Ulster players being queasy about transfers down south.

We're the veal pen. Get used to it.

Well that's a very real concern. I'm fairly well connected to London Irish and they invested heavily in the their academy putting £12million into it to be used as a potential growth model. But with their players on 1 or 2 year contracts they just bugger off and the Premiership and Top 14 is littered with players who used to play for Irish. That's our future unless we make an intervention - that means find a way of increasing revenue significantly or tell players that if they leave Ireland they won't be picked for the national team.

[jezzer]

The sensible move is to transfer Rossy back to Munster for 2 years (ie better deal than he's on) and keep Moore at Leinster for 3.

Would be pissed off if he goes. Furlong is a complete beast, but we need two good THPs and we're letting a great one walk out the door. If I thought we were getting a world class young 9 or lock with the money we saved, it might help the disappointment. But we won't.

Leinster has taken over from Connacht as the country's development province. That's just the fact of it. Munster isn't developing anyone worth wanting. Taking a Connacht player is tantamount to *** Edited by mod *** and the IRFU seem to be happy with most Ulster players being queasy about transfers down south.

We're the veal pen. Get used to it.

Well that's a very real concern. I'm fairly well connected to London Irish and they invested heavily in the their academy putting £12million into it to be used as a potential growth model. But with their players on 1 or 2 year contracts they just bugger off and the Premiership and Top 14 is littered with players who used to play for Irish. That's our future unless we make an intervention - that means find a way of increasing revenue significantly or tell players that if they leave Ireland they won't be picked for the national team.

That stops the overseas moves to a degree, but not the domestic ones. Plus, no way Nu-Schmidt will kill the golden 6N goose by snubbing good overseas players.

[dropkick]

The sensible move is to transfer Rossy back to Munster for 2 years (ie better deal than he's on) and keep Moore at Leinster for 3.

Would be pissed off if he goes. Furlong is a complete beast, but we need two good THPs and we're letting a great one walk out the door. If I thought we were getting a world class young 9 or lock with the money we saved, it might help the disappointment. But we won't.

Leinster has taken over from Connacht as the country's development province. That's just the fact of it. Munster isn't developing anyone worth wanting. Taking a Connacht player is tantamount to *** Edited by mod *** and the IRFU seem to be happy with most Ulster players being queasy about transfers down south.

We're the veal pen. Get used to it.

Well that's a very real concern. I'm fairly well connected to London Irish and they invested heavily in the their academy putting £12million into it to be used as a potential growth model. But with their players on 1 or 2 year contracts they just bugger off and the Premiership and Top 14 is littered with players who used to play for Irish. That's our future unless we make an intervention - that means find a way of increasing revenue significantly or tell players that if they leave Ireland they won't be picked for the national team.

Do LI still invest that much? If not its a real concern for England.


From a Munster point of view its also a shame. Munster badly need a TH badly but even if Moore and Munster wanted each other, you have the crazy situation of Munster not being allowed to offer more than Leinster. Thats also the main reason for the lack of movement of players between provinces.

[simonokeeffe]

Purely in the interests of nosiness I went over to the Wasps forum to have a gander at what they're saying. One poster stuck up 'Supposedly Leinster offered 2 year contract worth €90K and Wasps a 3 year £160K'. Taking the usual pinch of salt those figures look tiny for a player with Moore's potential.

all the more reason he should be on a central deal

I think he'd stay even on a not a huge one, he knows his injury problems, better player welfare here and he wants to play for Ireland

missing half the Ireland training session will not sit well with an international coach who is known for fastidious preparation

[Flash Gordon]

The sensible move is to transfer Rossy back to Munster for 2 years (ie better deal than he's on) and keep Moore at Leinster for 3.

Would be pissed off if he goes. Furlong is a complete beast, but we need two good THPs and we're letting a great one walk out the door. If I thought we were getting a world class young 9 or lock with the money we saved, it might help the disappointment. But we won't.

Leinster has taken over from Connacht as the country's development province. That's just the fact of it. Munster isn't developing anyone worth wanting. Taking a Connacht player is tantamount to *** Edited by mod *** and the IRFU seem to be happy with most Ulster players being queasy about transfers down south.

We're the veal pen. Get used to it.

Well that's a very real concern. I'm fairly well connected to London Irish and they invested heavily in the their academy putting £12million into it to be used as a potential growth model. But with their players on 1 or 2 year contracts they just bugger off and the Premiership and Top 14 is littered with players who used to play for Irish. That's our future unless we make an intervention - that means find a way of increasing revenue significantly or tell players that if they leave Ireland they won't be picked for the national team.

That stops the overseas moves to a degree, but not the domestic ones. Plus, no way Nu-Schmidt will kill the golden 6N goose by snubbing good overseas players.

Well the consequence of that is that players will leave, they won't have them for squad sessions, they might not have them for international games and playing careers without player management will likely be much shorter. From an IRFU point of view it could also kill the domestic game as a commercial proposition.

[Logorrhea]

If Moore moves you can be pretty sure he will take a back seat to Furlong and White for the next two years (from an Irish point of view). That's the reality of how Joe tends to work.

[Flash Gordon]

The sensible move is to transfer Rossy back to Munster for 2 years (ie better deal than he's on) and keep Moore at Leinster for 3.

Would be pissed off if he goes. Furlong is a complete beast, but we need two good THPs and we're letting a great one walk out the door. If I thought we were getting a world class young 9 or lock with the money we saved, it might help the disappointment. But we won't.

Leinster has taken over from Connacht as the country's development province. That's just the fact of it. Munster isn't developing anyone worth wanting. Taking a Connacht player is tantamount to *** Edited by mod *** and the IRFU seem to be happy with most Ulster players being queasy about transfers down south.

We're the veal pen. Get used to it.

Well that's a very real concern. I'm fairly well connected to London Irish and they invested heavily in the their academy putting £12million into it to be used as a potential growth model. But with their players on 1 or 2 year contracts they just bugger off and the Premiership and Top 14 is littered with players who used to play for Irish. That's our future unless we make an intervention - that means find a way of increasing revenue significantly or tell players that if they leave Ireland they won't be picked for the national team.

Do LI still invest that much? If not its a real concern for England.


From a Munster point of view its also a shame. Munster badly need a TH badly but even if Moore and Munster wanted each other, you have the crazy situation of Munster not being allowed to offer more than Leinster. Thats also the main reason for the lack of movement of players between provinces.

Lack of investment in academies and domestic players is a really serious issue for the future. Teams like Toulon just sign who they want and don't need local talent. This combined with that fact that there is no transfer fee system means that all the investment a club puts into a player isn't rewarded. You could put players on longer contracts I suppose but given that rugby is such a physically demanding game a 4 or 5 year contract is a big risk for the club.

In soccer we've seen a similar pattern in the premier league and its significantly damaged the England team. This is a strategic question for us and as with the move to the Champions Cup, the IRFU are followers not leaders and are not showing a lot of vision. For me it really is quite simple - you either create investment in the game (which will mean opening it up more commercially) or you only pick domestic players. So for me, unless the commercial model is changed the only option is only select from home based players.

[jezzer]

missing half the Ireland training session will not sit well with an international coach who is known for fastidious preparation

Big point there SImon.

[curates_egg]

The short-termism on here sometimes is incredible.

Here's a 24 year old TH prop who has been in the Irish 22 for two years and is seen by Wasps (who have truckloads of cash) as a big enough target to spend a 3 year contract on, and we've guys saying 'I don't rate him that highly at this stage'?

When Ross knocks off next year and Furlong is in Irish squads,where is his replacement going to come from?

This is potentially a bigger long term loss than Madigan.

If he goes it will a considerably bigger loss than Madigan

Bringing size into the debate is not going to help convince him.

Moore looks like being first choice in Leinster and Ireland from here on: Ross' injury seems serious and he is not going to be higher up the pecking order next season. So, under those circumstances, his leaving would be a huge loss. Only SOB or Heaslip would be more significant.
Assuming Jonny has no existential injury problems, Madigan's departure is logically less significant for both Ireland and Leinster. You can choose if you want to accept that assumption.
In both cases, we are losing the player Joe has chosen as number two in the national context though.

[fourthirtythree]

Well he would have been No.2 for the 2016 6N had Ross not been injured so he's probably no.1 now. And I would be surprised if he was not considered No.1 now.

I think Irish rugby losing him would be a lesser failure than losing Sexton was or losing Murray would be now. But that's about it really. None of the outside backs or back rows mentioned on this thread are as essential.

[curates_egg]

Well he would have been No.2 for the 2016 6N had Ross not been injured so he's probably no.1 now. And I would be surprised if he was not considered No.1 now.

That's what I said.

[R-Dog]

While I do think he is a great talent and has a lot of potential, We have to look at the facts he has never started an International for Ireland. Big Difference between asking a prop to play the 1st 60 compared to the last 20.

He is yet to put much of a foot wrong for Leinster/Ireland but still is a bit off establishing himself as a solid 1st choice international. (Opportunity/Injury has hampered this a bit)

Would you have the same confidence in him starting in Twickers as you would McGrath/Healy or Ross?

[curates_egg]

While I do think he is a great talent and has a lot of potential, We have to look at the facts he has never started an International for Ireland. Big Difference between asking a prop to play the 1st 60 compared to the last 20.

He is yet to put much of a foot wrong for Leinster/Ireland but still is a bit off establishing himself as a solid 1st choice international. (Opportunity/Injury has hampered this a bit)

Would you have the same confidence in him starting in Twickers as you would McGrath/Healy or Ross?

Yes. Ross can barely walk right now and neither can Healy (before you go into his poor form over the past 12 plus months when not injured).

[jimbobjoe]

While I do think he is a great talent and has a lot of potential, We have to look at the facts he has never started an International for Ireland. Big Difference between asking a prop to play the 1st 60 compared to the last 20.

He is yet to put much of a foot wrong for Leinster/Ireland but still is a bit off establishing himself as a solid 1st choice international. (Opportunity/Injury has hampered this a bit)

Would you have the same confidence in him starting in Twickers as you would McGrath/Healy or Ross?

How many 22/23/24 year old tight heads have?!

[riocard911]

Rough figures for TV rights: Pro 12 - 12 million yoyos, Premiership - 35 million sterling, Top 14 - 70 million yoyos. We gotta bring about a fusion of Pro 12 and Premership and in doing so get our mits on the big money, otherwise we're going to end up being European rugby's equivalent of Glasgow Celtic........

[LeRouxIsPHat]

I wonder what the difference in viewing figures is like? And how much the various broadcasters claw back from their outlay?
And how well they do out of it compared to the premier league?

Villa and Leicester are playing this Saturday at 17:30 on sky and a lot of people here will watch that and it'll be on in all the pubs despite neither of them being big clubs. Just curious as to how that compares to say Castres and Bordeaux, or London Irish and Newcastle playing last weekend.

I guess what I'm wondering is if there's any chance the bubble will burst or if it's all sustainable in terms of the TV money.

[artaneboy]

I don't rate him that highly at this stage. I think Furlong has a much higher ceiling and will be 1st choice.

He has missed a shed load of rugby and you would imagine that was part of the Leinster thinking when making a decision.

I have to agree. Don't want to see Marty go- but, while it's not popular here, I wouldn't support breaking the bank to keep him either. There is a budget and there are priorities. If we can keep him for a reasonable figure- grand; if not... well I think Furlong has been more consistent and in better form than Moore this season. Get another year out of Ross- he's still the best option we have- aging or not, get the academy kids some game time and possibly sign another short-term replacement to cover the year. Not ideal- but that's life. The alternative is to break the bank and not be able to buy-in a top class SH or whatever we decide we really do need to move back into European contention.

[simonokeeffe]

we need the IRFU to loosen the purse strings and get back up to 20-25 players on central contracts