Come back Ian Madigan - All is forgiven!!!

[riocard911]

In light of the concern regarding Johnny Sexton's injury profile and fear of concussion susceptibility, it would be remiss; IMO, of Leinster Rugby not to be preparing for the worst case scenario i.e. that this could potentially be his last season. One can take it as a given, that Ireland's 6 Nations opponents will be aiming to give Joe Schmidt's playmaker a horrid time on the pitch even to the extent of doing a Bastareaud on him. If you were in Mick Dawson's shoes how would you prepare for next season, should the aforementioned worst case scenario come to pass? Do you 1. shop around on the international market for a replacement 10, while fast-tracking the development of Cathal Marsh, Ross Byrne and Steve Crosbie or 2. buy Ian Madigan out of his contract with Bordeaux, install him as your number 1 outhalf and help him reach his full potential in this position? If it were up to me, I would go with option 2.

[Logorrhea]

In light of the concern regarding Johnny Sexton's injury profile and fear of concussion susceptibility, it would be remiss; IMO, of Leinster Rugby not to be preparing for the worst case scenario i.e. that this could potentially be his last season.

How about option 3 where as the head of the organization, you ignore the ill informed nonsense spouted on fan forums, you refer to the opinions of medical experts, and continue to look forward to years more of service from said Mr Sexton?

[riocard911]

In light of the concern regarding Johnny Sexton's injury profile and fear of concussion susceptibility, it would be remiss; IMO, of Leinster Rugby not to be preparing for the worst case scenario i.e. that this could potentially be his last season.

How about option 3 where as the head of the organization, you ignore the ill informed nonsense spouted on fan forums, you refer to the opinions of medical experts, and continue to look forward to years more of service from said Mr Sexton?

Head .... sand ... And I suppose Hook's, Lenihan's and Quinlan's expressions of concern on the Sexton concussion issue are part of a conspiracy by the Munster mafia to rob Leinster of their best player....

[Dave Cahill]

In light of the concern regarding Johnny Sexton's injury profile and fear of concussion susceptibility, it would be remiss; IMO, of Leinster Rugby not to be preparing for the worst case scenario i.e. that this could potentially be his last season.

How about option 3 where as the head of the organization, you ignore the ill informed nonsense spouted on fan forums, you refer to the opinions of medical experts, and continue to look forward to years more of service from said Mr Sexton?

Head .... sand ... And I suppose Hook's, Lenihan's and Quinlan's expressions of concern on the Sexton concussion issue are part of a conspiracy by the Munster mafia to rob Leinster of their best player....

And when Mssrs Hook, Lenihan and Quinlan examined Johnnys medical records and performed their tests on him, could you remind us which countries they were licenced to practice medicine in?

[riocard911]

None of them claimed to be medical practitioners, Dave. Noboty other than the quacks at Leinster and the IRFU and the chief neuro-dude who checked Johnny in France know the facts. That's not the point. My question was regarding a hypothetical worst case scenario. If you choose to believe that that scenario will never come to pass, then that's fine.

[riocard911]

p.s. I would however point out that the worst case scenario re RWC 2015 - i.e. that if anything happened to Johnny we'd be hockeyed due to lack of game time for Madigan at 10 at Leinster - is something some of us were warning about for more than a year before it came to pass!!!

[Dave Cahill]

None of them claimed to be medical practitioners, Dave. Noboty other than the quacks at Leinster and the IRFU and the chief neuro-dude who checked Johnny in France know the facts. That's not the point. My question was regarding a hypothetical worst case scenario. If you choose to believe that that scenario will never come to pass, then that's fine.

But its not the worst case scenario, its a worst case scenario based upon information that is absolutely without any provenace being put forward by people entirely without the skills to even know what they're talking about.

Yesterday, for example on Twitter, three Rugby correspondants with national newspapers were arguing over how many HIA stages there were and whether stage 1 was the one you do in the stadium or whether you do stage 1 after the intial HIA in the stadium - it turns out that none of them actually knew.

[Dave Cahill]

p.s. I would however point out that the worst case scenario re RWC 2015 - i.e. that if anything happened to Johnny we'd be hockeyed due to lack of game time for Madigan at 10 at Leinster - is something some of us were warning about for more than a year before it came to pass!!!

Yes. Thats what happened. Exactly.

[Oldschool]

Option 2 is gone, almost literally.
The options availabe to cover any of Sexton's absences are Marsh, Crosbie and Byrne.
Over the 6Ns period Leo's 23s should include Marsh and Crosbie.
With Marsh starting, Crosbie could be introduced at 12 for a couple of the games and then at OH.
The Zebre games, in particular, are a huge opportunity for this sort of necessary experimentation.
Initially McFadden should take on the kicking duties while the other two guys are being bedded in.

[riocard911]

None of them claimed to be medical practitioners, Dave. Noboty other than the quacks at Leinster and the IRFU and the chief neuro-dude who checked Johnny in France know the facts. That's not the point. My question was regarding a hypothetical worst case scenario. If you choose to believe that that scenario will never come to pass, then that's fine.

But its not the worst case scenario, its a worst case scenario based upon information that is absolutely without any provenace being put forward by people entirely without the skills to even know what they're talking about.

Yesterday, for example on Twitter, three Rugby correspondants with national newspapers were arguing over how many HIA stages there were and whether stage 1 was the one you do in the stadium or whether you do stage 1 after the intial HIA in the stadium - it turns out that none of them actually knew.

Good point - something which doesn't reflect well on them. Similarly, the information which came out initially from Leinster Rugby re what happened Johnny over in Coventry doesn't exactly inspire confidence either......

[simonokeeffe]

JJ Hanrahan will be available in 2017

[Oldschool]

The facts about Sexton's concussion issues that we are aware of and are public knowledge.
Jaw broken twice. Definite brain trauma involved.
Concussion. Definitely confirmed on more than one occasion including a 3 month layoff.
Visual evidence - Player unsteady on feet.
Physical evidence - Loss of co-ordination. Passing, out of hand kicking . It would be interesting to know how his place kicking % stats have changed over the years from season to season.
Tackling technique which exposes his head to high energy impacts and associated risk of concussion.

Further visual evidence - Extremely pale complexion, looking unwell.
That one is for Dave, something he can get his teeth into - I always like to give him an easy target, something he can rubbish without too much effort.

Bottom line - Ireland and Leinster need to invest in Sexton's future and give him a break from rugby for the rest of the season.

[Fireworks]

Everyone, even Hook, who is expressing concern is doing it for the right reason. This is just a game and nobody wants to see anyone picking up long term disabilities from it.
HOWEVER some of the commentary and opinion goes way overboard in that they are operating without any facts. They should have used the work hypothetical many times in all articles. The best placed people to comment are the medical professionals monitoring his progress. He may be fine or there could be an issue.

One way or the other I would expect that the powers upstairs would be constantly planning for the loss of each of the guys in the squad. One bad tackle could end the career of any of them so there always has to be some plan in place. With Madigan moving there must already be a plan for filling the gap and that will help cover Sexton if there is an issue. That plan could be a shopping trip or they may feel the young guys will come good.

[Dave Cahill]

Good point - something which doesn't reflect well on them. Similarly, the information which came out initially from Leinster Rugby re what happened Johnny over in Coventry doesn't exactly inspire confidence either......

The real problem is that concussion has become a catch all phrase for a number of issues that share some, all or none of the same physical symptoms

You can be knocked out or not knocked out and suffer a concussion or not suffer a concussion. You can be steady on your feet or staggering around and be suffering a concussion or not suffering a concussion. You can be lucid or not lucid and be suffering a concussion or not suffering a concussion. You can even be concussed (or not) by injuries that don't appear to have involved the head at all or concussed (or not) by injuries to the head. There are very few physical signs of a mildly traumatic brain injury (as I believe the now correct term is ) visible without close examination by a trained professional (fencing response is one - watch Alex Goodes arms when he hits the ground in the Payne red card incident as an example). The problem is that there is too much misinformation masquerading as fact and common knowledge. There is a diagnostic process carried out by medical professionals. They know when the player is concussed or not - no one else does. Theres a very simple way though to keep things straight - if the person isn't a medical professional who has access to the patient and his records, or someone directly informed by same, then they don't know what they are talking about. That goes for you, me, anybody. None of us know, so why suppose about something thats very important.

[curates_egg]

Good point - something which doesn't reflect well on them. Similarly, the information which came out initially from Leinster Rugby re what happened Johnny over in Coventry doesn't exactly inspire confidence either......

The real problem is that concussion has become a catch all phrase for a number of issues that share some, all or none of the same physical symptoms

You can be knocked out or not knocked out and suffer a concussion or not suffer a concussion. You can be steady on your feet or staggering around and be suffering a concussion or not suffering a concussion. You can be lucid or not lucid and be suffering a concussion or not suffering a concussion. You can even be concussed (or not) by injuries that don't appear to have involved the head at all or concussed (or not) by injuries to the head. There are very few physical signs of a mildly traumatic brain injury (as I believe the now correct term is ) visible without close examination by a trained professional (fencing response is one - watch Alex Goodes arms when he hits the ground in the Payne red card incident as an example). The problem is that there is too much misinformation masquerading as fact and common knowledge. There is a diagnostic process carried out by medical professionals. They know when the player is concussed or not - no one else does. Theres a very simple way though to keep things straight - if the person isn't a medical professional who has access to the patient and his records, or someone directly informed by same, then they don't know what they are talking about. That goes for you, me, anybody. None of us know, so why suppose about something thats very important.

Despite your projection of authority on the subject, your position is just as questionable as those you are criticising. You are ignoring the fact that even the new HIAs have been criticised as insufficient by professionals and are widely acknowledged to be open to gaming. Players themselves openly admit gaming the tests. So the whole assumption that the protocols and those involved in assessing them are all hunky dory is flawed.

The reality is that, despite the attention, rugby remains behind other comparative sports in this regard. Quite why that is the case is open to speculation but perhaps they are gambling on the type of class action suits that you might find in a particular national jurisdiction with its solely national league would be more difficult in rugby union. Or perhaps they are idiots. Or perhaps they are irresponsible.

Regardless of the debate on head trauma and how it relates to players on our roster, Madigan is gone, so there is not much point in a thread like this. I believe it was a mistake, others don't. That debate has been done to death. It's too late.
Someone above expresses the belief that we are already working on a plan B. I hope that is right and that it is one that will enable us to be competitive next year. The whole removal and replacement of MOC doesn't really inspire much confidence in that regard though. The reality is that we won't really be able to compete for a proven outhalf, so we are likely to be stuck with Marsh or Byrne, when Sexton is away or injured. They are both young lads who have shown they definitely have some of the attributes necessary...but I doubt anyone would argue we could rely on them alone at 10 to be competitive.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

On a very basic level, you'd have to be very worried about one of the few players who has had to take a long break due to concussion and who regularly takes head knocks.

Anyone who puts complete faith in the medical team just needs to look at the last two mins of the first half of the A game on Friday. Mentioned this already but Rory O'Loughlin was looking shaky on the sideline and talking to the doc/physio, looked like he was coming off, then seemed to not have a clue where he was before getting a shout from Brewer to join the defensive line. He was taken off after the next play or two which was only a few seconds before HT.

[Dave Cahill]

Despite your projection of authority on the subject, your position is just as questionable as those you are criticising. You are ignoring the fact that even the new HIAs have been criticised as insufficient by professionals and are widely acknowledged to be open to gaming. Players themselves openly admit gaming the tests. So the whole assumption that the protocols and those involved in assessing them are all hunky dory is flawed. .

I don't project any authority on the subject, I've repeatedly said that I don't really know anything about concussion in general or specific players in particular. My problem is people who know as little as me proffering 'medical' opinion on this very serious issue and indeed proffering it as fact.

[the spoofer]

Despite your projection of authority on the subject, your position is just as questionable as those you are criticising. You are ignoring the fact that even the new HIAs have been criticised as insufficient by professionals and are widely acknowledged to be open to gaming. Players themselves openly admit gaming the tests. So the whole assumption that the protocols and those involved in assessing them are all hunky dory is flawed. .

I don't project any authority on the subject, I've repeatedly said that I don't really know anything about concussion in general or specific players in particular. My problem is people who know as little as me proffering 'medical' opinion on this very serious issue and indeed proffering it as fact.

For once I agree with DC.

[neiliog93]

In the unlikely event that he does have to retire/take a long break, then we could think about buying Madigan out of his contract. But it's ridiciulously premature now. I would say a more likely course of action would probably be an NIQ 10 to nurture Byrne, Marsh and Crosbie for a season or two anyway.

[riocard911]

Good point - something which doesn't reflect well on them. Similarly, the information which came out initially from Leinster Rugby re what happened Johnny over in Coventry doesn't exactly inspire confidence either......

The real problem is that concussion has become a catch all phrase for a number of issues that share some, all or none of the same physical symptoms

You can be knocked out or not knocked out and suffer a concussion or not suffer a concussion. You can be steady on your feet or staggering around and be suffering a concussion or not suffering a concussion. You can be lucid or not lucid and be suffering a concussion or not suffering a concussion. You can even be concussed (or not) by injuries that don't appear to have involved the head at all or concussed (or not) by injuries to the head. There are very few physical signs of a mildly traumatic brain injury (as I believe the now correct term is ) visible without close examination by a trained professional (fencing response is one - watch Alex Goodes arms when he hits the ground in the Payne red card incident as an example). The problem is that there is too much misinformation masquerading as fact and common knowledge. There is a diagnostic process carried out by medical professionals. They know when the player is concussed or not - no one else does. Theres a very simple way though to keep things straight - if the person isn't a medical professional who has access to the patient and his records, or someone directly informed by same, then they don't know what they are talking about. That goes for you, me, anybody. None of us know, so why suppose about something thats very important.

Despite your projection of authority on the subject, your position is just as questionable as those you are criticising. You are ignoring the fact that even the new HIAs have been criticised as insufficient by professionals and are widely acknowledged to be open to gaming. Players themselves openly admit gaming the tests. So the whole assumption that the protocols and those involved in assessing them are all hunky dory is flawed.

The reality is that, despite the attention, rugby remains behind other comparative sports in this regard. Quite why that is the case is open to speculation but perhaps they are gambling on the type of class action suits that you might find in a particular national jurisdiction with its solely national league would be more difficult in rugby union. Or perhaps they are idiots. Or perhaps they are irresponsible.

Regardless of the debate on head trauma and how it relates to players on our roster, Madigan is gone, so there is not much point in a thread like this. I believe it was a mistake, others don't. That debate has been done to death. It's too late.
Someone above expresses the belief that we are already working on a plan B. I hope that is right and that it is one that will enable us to be competitive next year. The whole removal and replacement of MOC doesn't really inspire much confidence in that regard though. The reality is that we won't really be able to compete for a proven outhalf, so we are likely to be stuck with Marsh or Byrne, when Sexton is away or injured. They are both young lads who have shown they definitely have some of the attributes necessary...but I doubt anyone would argue we could rely on them alone at 10 to be competitive.

"Madigan is gone"? Yeah, and Kane Douglas' Wallabies career was over and he was never going to play in RWC 2015 - if I remember rightly. Contracts can by their nature be renegotiated. Were not talking Moses and the Ten Commandments here, ffs. If Leinster were to lose Johnny for 2016/2017, they could always get Madigan to come back, if they were prepared to make the effort and pony up the spons to Bordeaux. My question was, should they do that, if J10 is no longer available? Compared to the other options, I would say yes. Whether the concussion discussion in general and re Sexton in particular is or is not overblown was not what I was asking people to consider.