Leinster vs Edinburgh, Friday 15th April

[goreyguy]

He took over the backs coaching in the academy in 2010.

He didn't, he started as EPDO in 2010.

He took over the academy in late 2012

he was coaching the backs in the academy from the summer of 2010, that's one of the roles an elite player development officer does.

mcentee was the head of the academy, but he wasn't responsible for developing backs.

[Dave Cahill]

He took over the backs coaching in the academy in 2010.

He didn't, he started as EPDO in 2010.

He took over the academy in late 2012

he was coaching the backs in the academy from the summer of 2010, that's one of the roles an elite player development officer does.

So Wayne Mitchell was coaching the backs in the academy from the summer of 2010, that's one of the roles an elite player development officer does

Hes gone from taking over the academy, to taking over coaching the academy backs, to coaching the backs on a part time basis as part of a differnet role...

[Dave Cahill]

So Wayne Mitchell was coaching the backs in the academy from the summer of 2010, that's one of the roles an elite player development officer does

Hes gone from taking over the academy, to taking over coaching the academy backs, to coaching the backs on a part time basis as part of a differnet role...

Not that it actually matters, he wasn't responsible for the academy intake in 2010 either way

[goreyguy]

Demspey has been working with underage and academy backs since 2010.. but fine if you want to ignore the 2 years of work he did as elite player development officer and focus on the backs he coached while head of the academy go ahead, still doesn't make for pretty reading.

[goreyguy]

Not that it actually matters, he wasn't responsible for the academy intake in 2010 either way

who said he was?

[molloyjh]

it's an opinion, again i'll underline the lack of high quality backs developed during his time in charge of the academies backs. Did he maximise the raw talent at his disposal, in my opinion he did not.

I'll just quote this bit here. Just because you have an "opinion" it does not free you from the responsibility of providing evidence for or quantification of that opinion. "It's my opinion" is not some silver bullet that can shoot down any critique of it.

Can you name a single player that has proven your opinion to be true, or even have any basis in fact? You are right of course that we haven't produced many talented backs in the last few years. But given that Dempsey was the Academy coach for less than 3 years (I'm deliberately ignoring his development officer role as he doesn't have full-time access to guys through that AFAIK), just how much more would you have expected him to actually do? How much of the things that you have issues with are things that could and should be developed far earlier than the Academy (like what Nucifora is looking to implement now)? If a lot of the raw ingredients are missing when guys enter the Academy then how much is anyone going to be able to do about that? Look at guys like Macken, who got by on his size for so long that he never had to develop the skill set. Exactly how long should it take coaches to turn guys like that around?

There's a whole host of reasons that Leinster haven't produced numerous talented backs over the last few years ranging from the need being in the forwards to career ending injuries to a lack of raw talent. All combine to leave us where we are now. Pointing the finger at a couple of individuals is a lazy analysis of what has actually happened.

[goreyguy]

it's an opinion, again i'll underline the lack of high quality backs developed during his time in charge of the academies backs. Did he maximise the raw talent at his disposal, in my opinion he did not.

I'll just quote this bit here. Just because you have an "opinion" it does not free you from the responsibility of providing evidence for or quantification of that opinion. "It's my opinion" is not some silver bullet that can shoot down any critique of it.

Can you name a single player that has proven your opinion to be true, or even have any basis in fact? You are right of course that we haven't produced many talented backs in the last few years. But given that Dempsey was the Academy coach for less than 3 years (I'm deliberately ignoring his development officer role as he doesn't have full-time access to guys through that AFAIK), just how much more would you have expected him to actually do? How much of the things that you have issues with are things could and should be developed far earlier than the Academy (like what Nucifora is looking to implement now)? If a lot of the raw ingredients are missing when guys enter the Academy then how much is anyone going to be able to do about that? Look at guys like Macken, who got by on his size for so long that he never had to develop the skill set. Exactly how long should it take coaches to turn guys like that around?

There's a whole host of reasons that Leinster haven't produced numerous talented backs over the last few years ranging from the need being in the forwards to career ending injuries to a lack of raw talent. All combine to leave us where we are now. Pointing the finger at a couple of individuals is a lazy analysis of what has actually happened.

I have said repeatedly that the blame is not solely on Dempsey, i've described how I felt the underage game wasn't as condusive to developing highly talented backs, it's a mixture of factors as I've said repeatedly. But ignore that why don't you.

When leinster rugby goes several years without producing a high quality back then that's all the evidence I need, then when you dig down further and see talented players, even if they are not elite, not improving as rugby players it give you further evidence. Again as I'v said previously, in the leinster academy you either are elite or very close to it upon entry and therefore move quickly through the system, or you spend 3 years "developing" into a championship level player. This isn't just about Dempsey, it's about the whole system of leinster back development this decade spanning from underage level to senior professional.

[Dave Cahill]

Demspey has been working with underage and academy backs since 2010.. but fine if you want to ignore the 2 years of work he did as elite player development officer and focus on the backs he coached while head of the academy go ahead, still doesn't make for pretty reading.

He can't be held responsible for not making silk purses out of what may well be sows ears because he didn't pick the pigs

He can only be held responsible for intake since 2013-14 - those are his pigs

So thats Adam Byrne, Steve Crosbie, Thomas Daly, Billy Dardis, Harrison Brewer, Ross Byrne, Ian Fitzpatrick, Cian Kelleher, Nick McCarthy, Rory O'Loughlin, Garry Ringrose and I'd suggest that he was probably responsible for the intake at the start of this year too - Joey Carbury

[goreyguy]

Demspey has been working with underage and academy backs since 2010.. but fine if you want to ignore the 2 years of work he did as elite player development officer and focus on the backs he coached while head of the academy go ahead, still doesn't make for pretty reading.

He can't be held responsible for not making silk purses out of what may well be sows ears because he didn't pick the pigs

He can only be held responsible for intake since 2013-14 - those are his pigs

So thats Adam Byrne, Steve Crosbie, Thomas Daly, Billy Dardis, Harrison Brewer, Ross Byrne, Ian Fitzpatrick, Cian Kelleher, Nick McCarthy, Rory O'Loughlin, Garry Ringrose and I'd suggest that he was probably responsible for the intake at the start of this year too - Joey Carbury

Look at his first class then how have they developed?

Tom Daly - still waiting to make his debut.
Tom Farrell - unlikely to ever play for leinster.
Steve Crosbie - unlikely to ever play for leinster again, 2 sub appearances.
Adam Byrne - has played 4 times for leinster.
Billy Dardis - unlikely to ever play for leinster.

[molloyjh]

I have said repeatedly that the blame is not solely on Dempsey, i've described how I felt the underage game wasn't as condusive to developing highly talented backs, it's a mixture of factors as I've said repeatedly. But ignore that why don't you.

When leinster rugby goes several years without producing a high quality back then that's all the evidence I need, then when you dig down further and see talented players, even if they are not elite, not improving as rugby players it give you further evidence. Again as I'v said previously, in the leinster academy you either are elite or very close to it upon entry and therefore move quickly through the system, or you spend 3 years "developing" into a championship level player. This isn't just about Dempsey, it's about the whole system of leinster back development this decade spanning from underage level to senior professional.

But as I've pointed out before for the majority of the last several years we haven't needed to produce those backs because of the guys we've had in situ. And yet in that time we've brought through guys like Luke McGrath, Ian Madigan, Ian McKinley, Eoin O'Malley, Niall Morris, Gary Ringrose and Dave Kearney. Are you really sure we've been as bad as you say we have? Or are you just looking at our current predicament and fitting your narrative around that? Because as I said before it's very difficult to seamlessly manage the transition we've had to.

[goreyguy]

I have said repeatedly that the blame is not solely on Dempsey, i've described how I felt the underage game wasn't as condusive to developing highly talented backs, it's a mixture of factors as I've said repeatedly. But ignore that why don't you.

When leinster rugby goes several years without producing a high quality back then that's all the evidence I need, then when you dig down further and see talented players, even if they are not elite, not improving as rugby players it give you further evidence. Again as I'v said previously, in the leinster academy you either are elite or very close to it upon entry and therefore move quickly through the system, or you spend 3 years "developing" into a championship level player. This isn't just about Dempsey, it's about the whole system of leinster back development this decade spanning from underage level to senior professional.

But as I've pointed out before for the majority of the last several years we haven't needed to produce those backs because of the guys we've had in situ. And yet in that time we've brought through guys like Luke McGrath, Ian Madigan, Ian McKinley, Eoin O'Malley, Niall Morris, Gary Ringrose and Dave Kearney. Are you really sure we've been as bad as you say we have? Or are you just looking at our current predicament and fitting your narrative around that? Because as I said before it's very difficult to seamlessly manage the transition we've had to.

You realise most of those players were never even 1st choice players for leinster, some may have been but injury intervened, others could be in the future and others weren't good enough to be.

Over the past 3 years there has been a need for young talented backs to step up.. leinster just hadn't developed capable of doing so until Ringrose/McGrath this season. Look at how much gametime Darragh Fanning has gotten, the need to bring back Nacewa, the signing of Teo and now Henshaw, Kirchner, the inability of either Reid or Macken to step up, the unwillingness to give Cooney/McGrath gametime.

You said it yourself that leinster have stopped producing as many elite backs as they did at the end of the last decade, id go as far as saying they've stopped producing as many very good backs than back then too. It's miarad of factors as ive stated before, but I still stand by my statement that only backs who are elite talents joining the academy really push on, most of the backs who join the academy spends 3 years "developing" and end up elsewhere or backups, personally I don't think that is maximising the talent coming through the academy.

And yes there is a need for young talented backs in the senior setup, thankfully we saw an improvement this year Ringrose/McGrath possible emerging as future 1st choice backs and the byrnes getting gametime. But leinster needs more and i'm unconvinced that the academy will be able to provide much more and that's because I don't believe the talent joining the academy, that needs time to develop and improve, will do that. Certainly not as well as if they were with Connacht.

Just look at this years u20 class, none of those backs are elite talents.. will any of them really improve enough in the leinster academy to one day be anything more than squad players at leinster? They all have talent but will it maxmised in the leinster academy? I don't think so. If Kelleher does leave, it's fairly damning verdict on how he felt things were going at leinster and at connacht and which team offered the better chance to improve and develop. I wouldn't blame him for heading west, they certainly improve players, even ones leinster deemed not good enough.

[Oldschool]

I have said repeatedly that the blame is not solely on Dempsey, i've described how I felt the underage game wasn't as condusive to developing highly talented backs, it's a mixture of factors as I've said repeatedly. But ignore that why don't you.

When leinster rugby goes several years without producing a high quality back then that's all the evidence I need, then when you dig down further and see talented players, even if they are not elite, not improving as rugby players it give you further evidence. Again as I'v said previously, in the leinster academy you either are elite or very close to it upon entry and therefore move quickly through the system, or you spend 3 years "developing" into a championship level player. This isn't just about Dempsey, it's about the whole system of leinster back development this decade spanning from underage level to senior professional.

But as I've pointed out before for the majority of the last several years we haven't needed to produce those backs because of the guys we've had in situ. And yet in that time we've brought through guys like Luke McGrath, Ian Madigan, Ian McKinley, Eoin O'Malley, Niall Morris, Gary Ringrose and Dave Kearney. Are you really sure we've been as bad as you say we have? Or are you just looking at our current predicament and fitting your narrative around that? Because as I said before it's very difficult to seamlessly manage the transition we've had to.

You realise most of those players were never even 1st choice players for leinster, some may have been but injury intervened, others could be in the future and others weren't good enough to be.

Over the past 3 years there has been a need for young talented backs to step up.. leinster just hadn't developed capable of doing so until Ringrose/McGrath this season. Look at how much gametime Darragh Fanning has gotten, the need to bring back Nacewa, the signing of Teo and now Henshaw, Kirchner, the inability of either Reid or Macken to step up, the unwillingness to give Cooney/McGrath gametime.

You said it yourself that leinster have stopped producing as many elite backs as they did at the end of the last decade, id go as far as saying they've stopped producing as many very good backs than back then too. It's miarad of factors as ive stated before, but I still stand by my statement that only backs who are elite talents joining the academy really push on, most of the backs who join the academy spends 3 years "developing" and end up elsewhere or backups, personally I don't think that is maximising the talent coming through the academy.

And yes there is a need for young talented backs in the senior setup, thankfully we saw an improvement this year Ringrose/McGrath possible emerging as future 1st choice backs and the byrnes getting gametime. But leinster needs more and i'm unconvinced that the academy will be able to provide much more and that's because I don't believe the talent joining the academy, that needs time to develop and improve, will do that. Certainly not as well as if they were with Connacht.

Just look at this years u20 class, none of those backs are elite talents.. will any of them really improve enough in the leinster academy to one day be anything more than squad players at leinster? They all have talent but will it maxmised in the leinster academy? I don't think so. If Kelleher does leave, it's fairly damning verdict on how he felt things were going at leinster and at connacht and which team offered the better chance to improve and develop. I wouldn't blame him for heading west, they certainly improve players, even ones leinster deemed not good enough.

Can anyone explain why Reid is still in the squad and what are the alternatives. He should have been cut lose a couple of seasons ago or at best only played on the wing.
Any player with a non existent defense capability has no place in the 12 shirt. This reflects badly on the coaching/contractual ticket and is worrying.
A professional outfit has to make hard choices/decisions sometimes.
Similarly with Macken it took far too long to face up to the fact that he was going to make it.

[Peg Leg]

I think Reid teo pairing is a lot better than two ringrose. Reid was great last week

[artaneboy]

I think Reid teo pairing is a lot better than two ringrose. Reid was great last week

So, you don't think cloning Gary is a viable option...? Pity, a bit of a 'Boys from Brazil' option has attractions.

[jezzer]

Reid's defence isn't non existant. He's just not an enthusiastic defender. But he does tackle and hit rucks.

He was excellent in the last game. Probably our best attacking player. I want to see him kick on now. Sexton, Reid and Ringrose isn't an imposing midfield, but it's a class one with ball in hand. Very reminiscent of Dean, Kiernan and Mullins for Ireland back in the day...

[hugonaut]

Reid's defence isn't non existant. He's just not an enthusiastic defender. But he does tackle and hit rucks ... like a rabbit.

Amended.

[limecat]

Reid's defence isn't non existant. He's just not an enthusiastic defender. But he does tackle and hit rucks ... like a rabbit.

Amended.

[Oldschool]

Reid's defence isn't non existant. He's just not an enthusiastic defender. But he does tackle and hit rucks.

He was excellent in the last game. Probably our best attacking player. I want to see him kick on now. Sexton, Reid and Ringrose isn't an imposing midfield, but it's a class one with ball in hand. Very reminiscent of Dean, Kiernan and Mullins for Ireland back in the day...

His attacking ability isn't in doubt.
It's his defensive ability that is the problem.
He's nearly 26, he's not going to kick on and that's the issue.

[goreyguy]

Reid's defence isn't non existant. He's just not an enthusiastic defender. But he does tackle and hit rucks.

He was excellent in the last game. Probably our best attacking player. I want to see him kick on now. Sexton, Reid and Ringrose isn't an imposing midfield, but it's a class one with ball in hand. Very reminiscent of Dean, Kiernan and Mullins for Ireland back in the day...

His attacking ability isn't in doubt.
It's his defensive ability that is the problem.
He's nearly 26, he's not going to kick on and that's the issue.

His development was mishandled, along with a few backs back then, maybe he would never had got there defensively but a move to the wing should have happened a long time ago. It didn't happen because Leinster didn't have anyone else coming through at 12, a position they have been incapable of developing for a long time. Even now they have had three 12's in the academy, it seems like Crosbie is on his way elsewhere, Brewer too, while Daly has a senior contract but had yet to play a game.

Why have leinster been incapable of developing a quality 12? Is the underage game not forcing backs with the physical capability to play 12 at the pro level to develop the awareness, skillset and decision making to play professionally at 12? are the right players being selected for the academy?

Leinster had the 1st and 2nd choice 12's at u20 level this year, the O'Briens, it will be interesting to see if they develop in the academy, although IMO both are probably more suited to other positions in the backline at professional level.