Leinster vs Edinburgh, Friday 15th April

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goreyguy
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Re: Leinster vs Edinburgh, Friday 15th April

Post by goreyguy »

molloyjh wrote:
It's not just as simple as the Academy assembling a good back from a production line though. You have to bear in mind a number of things. For starters the need had been in the forwards for some time. And with the young backs who came through up until the last season or two they had some serious players ahead of them. Throw in some guys not developing like they should and injuries and I really don't think we've done that bad.
There was certainly some seriously talented backs around at our peak, but Darragh Fanning played 34 times for Leinster since he joined Leinster, hard working and committed as he was there was certainly a gap for a talented back to play and play a lot.
molloyjh wrote: We've brought through McGrath at scrum-half, and you could argue Cooney as well who seemed to be developing well until last season or the season before. We've produced Mads at 10 who hasn't lived up to his potential and we had McKinley there who looked great up to his injury. Eoin O'Malley very nearly was the first guy to force his way ahead of Drico, but again injury robbed us of him. We have struggled a little to develop a quality inside centre. In the back 3 we had guys like Conway and Morris who felt they needed to leave to get game time because of who was in front of them when they came through. We've now got Ringrose who has made it as well as guys like Reid, Crosbie, Ross Byrne, Marsh, Kelleher and Adam Byrne all at various levels of making a breakthrough into the senior squad and others like Daly, Dardis and Brewer who we should be seeing more of in the next while.

That's a lot of backs over a 5 year period, a few of which either were quality, are quality or could be quality. For numerous reasons it can be hard to line people up exactly so that there isn't a drop off when long term players leave. But I don't think we're having that much difficulty producing backs. There are plenty of sides out there who would kill to have that kind of talent coming through their systems. There aren't many of the ability of the Shaggys or the Hickies or the BODs but the way the game has gone it's getting harder and harder to find guys like that anywhere, let alone at Leinster.
I'm talking about the 1990-1995 age groups and how they've been developed.. in comparison to say the 1985-1989 age groups you can see the visible drop off in the standard of back produced by leinster.

And I disagree that it's harder to find highly skilled backs, it's just gotten harder to find them being developed in leinster. Given the recent record, it's far from a sure thing that any of the young backs in the academy develop into high quality players i.e international standard. You either enter the academy as an elite talent and get fast tracked into the senior team - Ringrose and to a degree McGrath or you spend three years "developing" into a decent squad player at best or more likely headed elsewhere usually the championship.
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LeRouxIsPHat
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Re: Leinster vs Edinburgh, Friday 15th April

Post by LeRouxIsPHat »

molloyjh wrote:
neiliog93 wrote:Hard to argue with that. I guess natural ability is always going to be paramount but at the same time the academy could still improve re. backs IMO. I think someone like SCM had a lot of natural ability that was never maximised.
Is there anything to suggest it could have been though? He's being let go by Nottingham at the end of this season AFAIK, and they're just a mid-table Championship side.
Personally I think some players leave and the drive to succeed elsewhere isn't the same. They dream of playing for Leinster, not just of being a pro rugby player, and so they don't kick on like they should when they leave here.

Himself, Jack O'Connell, and Darren Hudson spring to mind when I say that. I may be totally wrong but personally I think they'd have pushed themselves harder here. I really liked SCM but he wasn't a MOC type player, he had a spark and liked to have a cut from anywhere, which was just what we were lacking at the time. I'm not saying he'd have been top class if he'd been given a shot, but I do think he'd have been a good squad player.
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Re: Leinster vs Edinburgh, Friday 15th April

Post by Dave Cahill »

Jack O'Connell is going well.
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Re: Leinster vs Edinburgh, Friday 15th April

Post by LeRouxIsPHat »

I know but when he was getting games for us I don't think you'd have said that playing in the championship at this stage of his career would be a good thing. I didn't mean it as a slight on them, just that some guys probably don't reach the same levels that they would have here.
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Re: Leinster vs Edinburgh, Friday 15th April

Post by Dave Cahill »

In fairness I don't think Jack was signed to play in the championship, he was signed to play in the AP but Bristol didn't get promoted. Hudson too, but he has been 'disappointing' in his time there, unlike O'Connell
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Re: Leinster vs Edinburgh, Friday 15th April

Post by simonokeeffe »

Dave Cahill wrote:In fairness I don't think Jack was signed to play in the championship, he was signed to play in the AP but Bristol didn't get promoted. Hudson too, but he has been 'disappointing' in his time there, unlike O'Connell
Hudson hasnt played this season for them

only played 6 times last season, 4 in B & I
goreyguy wrote:
simonokeeffe wrote:werent the A team playing very expansive attacking stuff under Girv the last couple of seasons?
more to developing backs than playing expansive rugby.. it's about developing skills - wether that be handling, passing, evasion, contact or decision making.
theyre going to develop more playing that way ie skills based rugby than just playing kick chase stuff, unless youre end goal is to play that way at seniors, shows more of a disconnect between MOC and what both preceded and succeeded him
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Re: Leinster vs Edinburgh, Friday 15th April

Post by goreyguy »

simonokeeffe wrote:
theyre going to develop more playing that way ie skills based rugby than just playing kick chase stuff, unless youre end goal is to play that way at seniors, shows more of a disconnect between MOC and what both preceded and succeeded him
Dempsey tried to play a good brand of rugby, how good of a job he did at developing the backs skills is another thing entirely.
Was he responsible for doing that is another question as he wasnt skills coach, but he was the backs coach. So back development would be something he'd be responsible for.

I think he has done a good job this season as a 1st year backs coach, but his performance when tasked with developing individual backs while in the academy doesn't make for pretty reading.
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Re: Leinster vs Edinburgh, Friday 15th April

Post by blockhead »

Hey GG. There may be a postion coming up soon at Leinster for a DOR (Director Of Rugby( but of course, you know that)). Anyway's, you should apply.
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Re: Leinster vs Edinburgh, Friday 15th April

Post by simonokeeffe »

So its now Girvs fault MOC wanted older/bigger boys and didnt pick the backs that were coming out (which was one of the reasons MOC was let go)?

You should box professionally with a reach like that

2 years of slating MOC for not picking young backs and now its that they werent good enough (due to Girvs coaching)
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Re: Leinster vs Edinburgh, Friday 15th April

Post by goreyguy »

simonokeeffe wrote:So its now Girvs fault MOC wanted older/bigger boys and didnt pick the backs that were coming out (which was one of the reasons MOC was let go)?

You should box professionally with a reach like that

2 years of slating MOC for not picking young backs and now its that they werent good enough (due to Girvs coaching)
Who said it was Dempseys fault that MOC wanted "older/bigger boys"?

It's not as simple as laying the blame all on one coach, nor am I doing that.

But please if you'd like to address my point, go ahead.
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Re: Leinster vs Edinburgh, Friday 15th April

Post by simonokeeffe »

goreyguy wrote:
simonokeeffe wrote:So its now Girvs fault MOC wanted older/bigger boys and didnt pick the backs that were coming out (which was one of the reasons MOC was let go)?

You should box professionally with a reach like that

2 years of slating MOC for not picking young backs and now its that they werent good enough (due to Girvs coaching)
Who said it was Dempseys fault that MOC wanted "older/bigger boys"?

It's not as simple as laying the blame all on one coach, nor am I doing that.

But please if you'd like to address my point, go ahead.
I did

you said he didnt develop individual backs, we wont go into the McGrath & Ringrose debate again

but youre saying he didnt produce good enough backs for MOC to pick after 2 seasons of you complaining MOC wasnt picking young backs

I know youre not blaming one coach, youre blaming every coach we've had the last 5 or 6 years
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Re: Leinster vs Edinburgh, Friday 15th April

Post by goreyguy »

simonokeeffe wrote:
goreyguy wrote:
simonokeeffe wrote:So its now Girvs fault MOC wanted older/bigger boys and didnt pick the backs that were coming out (which was one of the reasons MOC was let go)?

You should box professionally with a reach like that

2 years of slating MOC for not picking young backs and now its that they werent good enough (due to Girvs coaching)
Who said it was Dempseys fault that MOC wanted "older/bigger boys"?

It's not as simple as laying the blame all on one coach, nor am I doing that.

But please if you'd like to address my point, go ahead.
I did

you said he didnt develop individual backs, we wont go into the McGrath & Ringrose debate again

but youre saying he didnt produce good enough backs for MOC to pick after 2 seasons of you complaining MOC wasnt picking young backs

I know youre not blaming one coach, youre blaming every coach we've had the last 5 or 6 years
I said on individual basis most of the backs he worked with in the academy did not develop as much as they could have, you were either an elite talent joining the academy who was fast tracked into the team - ringrose/mcgrath or you spent three years "developing" and ended up as a backup squad player or in the championship. That isn't stellar record.

I'm not going to go over MOC again, thankfully he is gone. Whoever was responsible for developing backs since 2010 has to take a share of the blame, from underage coaches to the head coach. Compare the backs produced by leinster rugby from the 85 to 89 age groups to the more recent group from 90 to 95. There is an undeniably huge dip in quality.
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Re: Leinster vs Edinburgh, Friday 15th April

Post by simonokeeffe »

How do you know or can definitively say they didnt develop as much as they could have?

Any of them that developed further elsewhere did so because they got senior gametime, academy coach isnt ulrimately responsible for that
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Re: Leinster vs Edinburgh, Friday 15th April

Post by goreyguy »

simonokeeffe wrote:How do you know or can definitively say they didnt develop as much as they could have?

Any of them that developed further elsewhere did so because they got senior gametime, academy coach isnt ulrimately responsible for that
what's the academy coach responsible for then? if not developing players?

again I havent blamed Dempsey soley, just looked at his record and commented on it.

It's my opinion that he didn't, feel free disagree with it, but i'll just say that being a backup squad or championship level player is the minimum a player from the academy should become, dempsey for the large part helped develop backs of that level and not higher.
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Re: Leinster vs Edinburgh, Friday 15th April

Post by Dave Cahill »

And if that turns out to be the limit of a players ability, whats the academy coach supposed to do then? I would suggest that that being the case, as we have seen in recent cases, then the academy coach has actually delivered, by turning out players who are playing at their maximum level
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Re: Leinster vs Edinburgh, Friday 15th April

Post by simonokeeffe »

Guess it all depends on whether you see the academy's remit as developing players to as much of their potential as is possible or an automated process of churning out internationals irrespective of the raw materials

You cant make Niall Morris have Bryan Habanas pace
You cant coach Jerry Sexton or Ciaran Ruddock to be three inches taller

Billy Dardis is a good example, phenomenal schools player but doesnt look to have the physical requirements to withstand the rigours of top flight rugby
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Re: Leinster vs Edinburgh, Friday 15th April

Post by goreyguy »

I never said it was an automated process, not every player is going to be an international or 1st choice player for leinster. But the fact is that the majority of the backs coached by dempsey will be neither.

Some of you will say that is because that was the limit of their potential and dempsey maximised their talent. I disagree.

On the topic of dardis, the reason he isn't making it is not his size. It's his ability as a rugby player, he just hasn't developed his skills be that footwork, passing, kicking or decision making while in the academy.
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Re: Leinster vs Edinburgh, Friday 15th April

Post by goreyguy »

Dave Cahill wrote:And if that turns out to be the limit of a players ability, whats the academy coach supposed to do then? I would suggest that that being the case, as we have seen in recent cases, then the academy coach has actually delivered, by turning out players who are playing at their maximum level
So the underage game have been producing players who for the most part had a maximum level of the championship players or decent pro 12 backups. Dempsey as a new coach was able to maximise those backs talents over the past 5 years while in the academy and the fault really lies with the lack of highly talent players being produced by the underage game?

I find it odd that the underage game produced a lot of highly talented backs in the years previous to dempsey taking over the academy and that all of a sudden there was a sustained drop-off in talent being produced. I'd ask was that really the case or was there a drop-off in the level of coaching those academy backs were receiving in order to help them develop and reach their potential.

Of course people will says it's cyclical but it's not really it's all about the environment, how the game is played and how young players are encouraged to develop. Personally I think it was a bit of both, the underage game was not encouraging backs to develop the skills necessary to be elite players while also the coaching at academy level was not the best possible in order to develop the talented athletes into better rugby players.
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Re: Leinster vs Edinburgh, Friday 15th April

Post by LeRouxIsPHat »

simonokeeffe wrote:Guess it all depends on whether you see the academy's remit as developing players to as much of their potential as is possible or an automated process of churning out internationals irrespective of the raw materials
:lol:
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Re: Leinster vs Edinburgh, Friday 15th April

Post by molloyjh »

goreyguy wrote:I said on individual basis most of the backs he worked with in the academy did not develop as much as they could have
I'd love to see some evidence or quantification of this statement.
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