Leinster vs Edinburgh, Friday 15th April

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goreyguy
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Re: Leinster vs Edinburgh, Friday 15th April

Post by goreyguy »

molloyjh wrote:
goreyguy wrote:I said on individual basis most of the backs he worked with in the academy did not develop as much as they could have
I'd love to see some evidence or quantification of this statement.
it's an opinion, again i'll underline the lack of high quality backs developed during his time in charge of the academies backs. Did he maximise the raw talent at his disposal, in my opinion he did not. This is reflected in most of the academy backs he worked with turned out to be not particularly highly skilled players. The large majority of which do not have a future with leinster.

He has done a good job as backs coach this year for the most part, but as an individual developer and enhancer of a players skillset and decision making, i think there remains questions over how well he does that. Could a better job have been done by another coach, I certainly think an argument could be made that that answer is yes. Finally as I said previously it doesn't all rest on Dempsey, it spans two head coaches and a skill coach too.

I don't think its arguable that leinster have stopped producing backs at the previous levels that they were managing, As I said I believe it's a combo of the underage game failing to create the right environment/coaching and not as good coaching at the academy/professional level.

There are signs this may be changing at underage level but it should be a concern to any leinster fan given the greater reliance on imports in the backline. If the rumours are true about an academy back trying to move to Connacht it further underlines for me the view that Connacht are ahead of leinster in terms of back/skill development. Which is certainly not an absurd thing to say based on playing style & recent record.
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Re: Leinster vs Edinburgh, Friday 15th April

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Whatever about the quality of backs being produced, something that raises eyebrows for me is the quality of selection of players into the academy.

There are a fair few examples of poor player selection, for example when Peter Robb wasn't selected, I literally couldn't believe it, and we were stock piling centres into the academy (we had about 6 - it was BODs final season if I recall), Peter Robb was superb for the under 20's and was a physical freak - but then Connacht picked him up and low and behold, he's got a senior contract a season early and is a starter in their team.

You've also got to look at AIL selects - we went with Darragh Fanning and Mick McGrath into the senior squad, Matt Healy was picked up by Connacht and Adeolokun didn't progress from sub-academy, again despite being a phenomenal athlete and again, excelling once he got an opportunity at Connacht - and I'm not suggesting he was anywhere near the finished article when they got their hands on him, but with good coaching he has progressed into quite a player with that essential skill we lack - outright pace - and again, a physical phenomenon, I think those types of players are worth investing additional time and coaching into.

To be fair to Mick McGrath, I think he had a lot more to offer than Fanning but was just never given the opportunity for whatever reason and I think if he had ended up somewhere like Connacht he could be doing as well as someone like Matt Healy.

Whilst we struggled to produce a scrum half for so long, James Hart, who has gone off the boil, was quickly a starting 9 in the Top14.

I don't think our coaching has been a problem for young backs so much as our poor player selection. We certainly haven't focused on trying to bring through a devastating winger with physique and pace in quite some time, and have even invested in smaller wingers who then end up not being physically up to pro rugby, like Coughlin-Murray, possibly Kelleher and Dardis.... Adam Byrne being the exception and a lot is riding on him making the step up, but we should invest heavily in him.

And the senior signings have been poor, both from AIL but NIQ players. We tried to sign Drew Mitchell, and when we didn't get him, Kirchner was our next choice.... oh what could have been....
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Re: Leinster vs Edinburgh, Friday 15th April

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COYBIB wrote:Whatever about the quality of backs being produced, something that raises eyebrows for me is the quality of selection of players into the academy.

There are a fair few examples of poor player selection, for example when Peter Robb wasn't selected, I literally couldn't believe it, and we were stock piling centres into the academy (we had about 6 - it was BODs final season if I recall), Peter Robb was superb for the under 20's and was a physical freak - but then Connacht picked him up and low and behold, he's got a senior contract a season early and is a starter in their team.

You've also got to look at AIL selects - we went with Darragh Fanning and Mick McGrath into the senior squad, Matt Healy was picked up by Connacht and Adeolokun didn't progress from sub-academy, again despite being a phenomenal athlete and again, excelling once he got an opportunity at Connacht - and I'm not suggesting he was anywhere near the finished article when they got their hands on him, but with good coaching he has progressed into quite a player with that essential skill we lack - outright pace - and again, a physical phenomenon, I think those types of players are worth investing additional time and coaching into.

To be fair to Mick McGrath, I think he had a lot more to offer than Fanning but was just never given the opportunity for whatever reason and I think if he had ended up somewhere like Connacht he could be doing as well as someone like Matt Healy.

Whilst we struggled to produce a scrum half for so long, James Hart, who has gone off the boil, was quickly a starting 9 in the Top14.

I don't think our coaching has been a problem for young backs so much as our poor player selection. We certainly haven't focused on trying to bring through a devastating winger with physique and pace in quite some time, and have even invested in smaller wingers who then end up not being physically up to pro rugby, like Coughlin-Murray, possibly Kelleher and Dardis.... Adam Byrne being the exception and a lot is riding on him making the step up, but we should invest heavily in him.

And the senior signings have been poor, both from AIL but NIQ players. We tried to sign Drew Mitchell, and when we didn't get him, Kirchner was our next choice.... oh what could have been....
Would Robb/Healy/Niyi been developed aswell as at leinster? I doubt it, given our recent record.
They have simply been better at taking raw athletes and rugby players and upskilling them. As i've said previously unless your an elite talent upon entering the academy you simply do not progress and develop enough in the leinster academy. You come out a well conditioned athlete but lacking in some of the skills, creativity & decision making that high level back possesses.
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Re: Leinster vs Edinburgh, Friday 15th April

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I think the AIl thing especially the wingers is dead and gone and is with MOC in the grave, other than world cup/injury cover I dont think we have or will be signing anyone there under Leo

The only one under Joe was Auva'a as specialist 8 cover and he was effectively discarded after one season

Wasnt Dardis btw pretty much injured the whole time for his first two years in the academy?

Robb got starts at Connacht because of a slew of injuries to players in front of him, same with Adeoloken; Darcy was developed as a centre because of injury to BOD

Development in an academy, (squad size) and being able to afford opportunity of game time (challenge cup comes into that too) are 2 different things
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Re: Leinster vs Edinburgh, Friday 15th April

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simonokeeffe wrote:I think the AIl thing especially the wingers is dead and gone and is with MOC in the grave, other than world cup/injury cover I dont think we have or will be signing anyone there under Leo

The only one under Joe was Auva'a as specialist 8 cover and he was effectively discarded after one season

Wasnt Dardis btw pretty much injured the whole time for his first two years in the academy?

Robb got starts at Connacht because of a slew of injuries to players in front of him, same with Adeoloken; Darcy was developed as a centre because of injury to BOD

Development in an academy, (squad size) and being able to afford opportunity of game time (challenge cup comes into that too) are 2 different things
Development is development, it's either being done well or it's not, what's the point of the academy and A rugby if it's not a factor in player development? What's the point in training and skill sessions?

Connacht have done a very good job in developing backs not considered good enough by Leinster. Leinster used to do a good in developing its young backs. Leinster no longer had the star backline of old, we have an aging backline that needs young talent to step up and challenge for places and create some competition. We have relied upon imports to plug holes, due to our poor player development and that's undeniable.

Unless the underage system starts to produce elite talents more often, ala Ringrose, the academy/professional side will need to maximise the talent of the players it does recieve. Not to mention ensuring the skills of the senior squad return to the level they were under Schmidt.

One of Leinster's biggest problems at the moment in attack, is the lack of a 2nd creative back to make leinster less predictable not to mention how slow leinster are in the back three. These are all results of poor player development and a lack of young talent in the leinster backline pushing for places.
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Re: Leinster vs Edinburgh, Friday 15th April

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Did young players get less opportunity under MOC? yes
Under Joe and Leo? no
Does smaller squad size, resources, and injuries help academy promotion/dependency? yes
Did MOC encumber us with some bad signings? yes
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Re: Leinster vs Edinburgh, Friday 15th April

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simonokeeffe wrote:Did young players get less opportunity under MOC? yes
Under Joe and Leo? no
Does smaller squad size, resources, and injuries help academy promotion/dependency? yes
Did MOC encumber us with some bad signings? yes
IF you want to boil it down to some questions:

Does better coaching result in better players? yes.
Does poor coaching result in worse players? yes.
Can a very good coach improve players to the point of them exceeding preconceived notions about their talent level? Yes.
How many high quality backs has the leinster academy produced since 2010? ...
Has Demspey done a good job this year as backs coach? Yes.
Do Leinster need a skills coach? Yes.
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Re: Leinster vs Edinburgh, Friday 15th April

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Players who entered academy in 2010 or graduated then onwards?

Backs that have left the Leinster academy since 2010

Madigan
Morris
McKinley
Noel Reid
McGrath
Ringrose

Not sure Conway counts as signed straight to senior deal

Did DK do full 3 years?
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Re: Leinster vs Edinburgh, Friday 15th April

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simonokeeffe wrote: Did MOC encumber us with some bad signings? yes
The only MOC signing still at the club is Ben Teo - who did he encumber us with?
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Re: Leinster vs Edinburgh, Friday 15th April

Post by simonokeeffe »

Dave Cahill wrote:
simonokeeffe wrote: Did MOC encumber us with some bad signings? yes
The only MOC signing still at the club is Ben Teo - who did he encumber us with?
ZK, arguably Fanning and M McGrath
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Re: Leinster vs Edinburgh, Friday 15th April

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simonokeeffe wrote:Did young players get less opportunity under MOC? yes
No. Young backs did, but he has since been proved to be correct about most of them. He was also correct about there being unexploited talent in the AIL.

Young forwards however, many of whom have since gone on to become internationals, got lots of opportunities under MOC
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Re: Leinster vs Edinburgh, Friday 15th April

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simonokeeffe wrote:Players who entered academy in 2010 or graduated then onwards?
Backs who joined the leinster academy in the summer of 2010 when dempsey took over. Although you can include backs who graduated to the senior team after 2010 aswell, it still doesn't make for pretty reading.
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Re: Leinster vs Edinburgh, Friday 15th April

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simonokeeffe wrote:
Dave Cahill wrote:
simonokeeffe wrote: Did MOC encumber us with some bad signings? yes
The only MOC signing still at the club is Ben Teo - who did he encumber us with?
ZK, arguably Fanning and M McGrath
Schmidt signed Kirchner.

Fanning scored more tries in one match in Europe last season than every back in every Leinster Rugby squad combined managed this season. Perhaps we should have given him more gametime this year, same with McGrath and we might have managed even one.
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Re: Leinster vs Edinburgh, Friday 15th April

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goreyguy wrote: Has Demspey done a good job this year as backs coach? Yes.
Based on what?
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Re: Leinster vs Edinburgh, Friday 15th April

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goreyguy wrote:
simonokeeffe wrote:Players who entered academy in 2010 or graduated then onwards?
Backs who joined the leinster academy in the summer of 2010 when dempsey took over. Although you can include backs who graduated to the senior team after 2010 aswell, it still doesn't make for pretty reading.
Dempsey didn't take over the academy in 2010, Collie McEntee was still in charge then.
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Re: Leinster vs Edinburgh, Friday 15th April

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@DC whole conversation was about backs so thats what it was referring to

MOC re signed Kirchner

Fanning and McGrath on the books but clearly not wanted
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Re: Leinster vs Edinburgh, Friday 15th April

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simonokeeffe wrote:@DC whole conversation was about backs so thats what it was referring to

MOC re signed Kirchner

Fanning and McGrath on the books but clearly not wanted
Did he magic him out of thin air, or were we already 'encumbered' with him?
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Re: Leinster vs Edinburgh, Friday 15th April

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Dave Cahill wrote:
goreyguy wrote:
simonokeeffe wrote:Players who entered academy in 2010 or graduated then onwards?
Backs who joined the leinster academy in the summer of 2010 when dempsey took over. Although you can include backs who graduated to the senior team after 2010 aswell, it still doesn't make for pretty reading.
Dempsey didn't take over the academy in 2010, Collie McEntee was still in charge then.
He took over the backs coaching in the academy in 2010.
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Re: Leinster vs Edinburgh, Friday 15th April

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Dave Cahill wrote:
simonokeeffe wrote:@DC whole conversation was about backs so thats what it was referring to

MOC re signed Kirchner

Fanning and McGrath on the books but clearly not wanted
Did he magic him out of thin air, or were we already 'encumbered' with him?
as he was a flop I would tend towards the latter

Dont think Joe put a gun to anyones head and made us re sign him
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Re: Leinster vs Edinburgh, Friday 15th April

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goreyguy wrote:
He took over the backs coaching in the academy in 2010.
He didn't, he started as EPDO in 2010.

He took over the academy in late 2012
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