Successful first year for Leo?

[simonokeeffe]

Was Cullen even doing the negotiations?

With Moore it was Nucifora first, then was it Easterby or Dawson sitting down with Niall Woods?

[hugonaut]

For Leo I think he had an awful season. He went into contract discussions with a heavy handed approach that lost us key players such as Marty Moore and he did not have a strong enough approach/influence with the senior players to ensure they supported him in the dressing room.

What was his heavy handed approach with Marty Moore? Enlighten us, by all means.

[Ruckedtobits]

What has been the dominant feature is how conservative our approach to our games are. We play absolutely basic rugby, which works when played at high speed and without unforced errors. Against Ulster we successfully did this for two periods of 15 minutes and then defended our scoreline.

Leo, Girv and Kurt are all conservative rugby thinkers at this point. They may develop some of the Pat Lam outlook as years progress but it is more likely they will focus on development of Unit skills - the scrum, line-out, maul, re-start and back-line - rather than how to enrich our attack by counter-attack, earlier offloads, attacking passing from forwards etc.

One small example of the differences between us and Connacht is the number of times a Connacht forward passed from the back of a breakdown rather than waiting for Marmion / Cooney / Healy to arrive. In contrast, we actually lost three turnovers at least because forwards had arrived at breakdowns and ignored the ball which Owens deemed was out of ruck, but we had no scrum-half in position. Leinster forwards appear to be coached that if you don't have 9 or 21 on your back, you can't pass the ball from base of breakdown.

[sunshiner1]

One small example of the differences between us and Connacht is the number of times a Connacht forward passed from the back of a breakdown rather than waiting for Marmion / Cooney / Healy to arrive. In contrast, we actually lost three turnovers at least because forwards had arrived at breakdowns and ignored the ball which Owens deemed was out of ruck, but we had no scrum-half in position. Leinster forwards appear to be coached that if you don't have 9 or 21 on your back, you can't pass the ball from base of breakdown.

I would agree with that. I've said it several times that it baffles me that Rugby players don't spend at least a set part of their day every day working on skills. You'd think that as professionals they'd be wanting to up-scale their talents all their careers.

On another note Dave Ellis the Connacht Skills Coach was recommended to Connacht by Joe Schmidt when Lam approached him asking if he knew anyone who could fit the role. You have to ask why doesn't Leo/Leinster ask Schmidt the same question and utilize Schmidt's connections in the SH.

[curates_egg]

Nucifora with some extensive quotes on whether or not Cullen needs and will get help: http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/i ... -1.2674799

[wise7]

How can it be that what is supposed a leading club in European rugby can go through two successive seasons with no skills coach? Surely, by any standards, this is a monumental failure of management?

[riocard911]

How can it be that what is supposed a leading club in European rugby can go through two successive seasons with no skills coach? Surely, by any standards, this is a monumental failure of management?

+1

[BlueWheels]

How can it be that what is supposed a leading club in European rugby can go through two successive seasons with no skills coach? Surely, by any standards, this is a monumental failure of management?

+1

+1 ..... a recipe for madness, we are crying out for a skills coach!!

[Raydollard]

we are crying out for any decent coach

[MrSensible]

we are crying out for any decent coach

+ 1

[curates_egg]

Yeah. Everything is terrible. All our coaches are terrible. Having the meanest defence in the league had nothing to do with our coach in that area for example.

[riocard911]

Yeah. Everything is terrible. All our coaches are terrible. Having the meanest defence in the league had nothing to do with our coach in that area for example.

LOL!! Delenda est Leinster!!

[ronk]

Leo, Girv and Kurt are all conservative rugby thinkers at this point. They may develop some of the Pat Lam outlook as years progress but it is more likely they will focus on development of Unit skills - the scrum, line-out, maul, re-start and back-line - rather than how to enrich our attack by counter-attack, earlier offloads, attacking passing from forwards etc.

.

I think we needed conservative coaching as a starting point. It's taken Lam a few years to get Connacht to this point.

Leinster need work on the basics. Defensive work has taken us to the point when where're starting to look at a skills coach (though maybe Kurt is that guy).

Defence first was definitely the right move IMO.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Dave Cahill]

Leo, Girv and Kurt are all conservative rugby thinkers at this point. They may develop some of the Pat Lam outlook as years progress but it is more likely they will focus on development of Unit skills - the scrum, line-out, maul, re-start and back-line - rather than how to enrich our attack by counter-attack, earlier offloads, attacking passing from forwards etc.

.

I think we needed conservative coaching as a starting point. It's taken Lam a few years to get Connacht to this point.

Leinster need work on the basics. Defensive work has taken us to the point when where're starting to look at a skills coach (though maybe Kurt is that guy).

Defence first was definitely the right move IMO.

Our defense didn't appreciably improve. We conceeded two fewer tries in the same number of games with two pro12 post season games this season replacing two ECC post season games last season. So two fewer tries with two games at a lower level. We became harder for poor teams to score against alright, but we didn't really put much of a hitch in the gallop of the better teams. The performance against Connacht in the final was nothing short of a disgrace defensively. To be so badly caught out by a team playing exactly the same way as they always play is inexcusable.

[curates_egg]

The performance against Connacht in the final was nothing short of a disgrace defensively. To be so badly caught out by a team playing exactly the same way as they always play is inexcusable.

Sure but how much of that was down to coaching? Take their first try for example: it was a counter attack that came good because of 3 missed tackles and their ability to play high tempo from the breakdown, which gave them a two on one. Kurt can't make those tackles. He also can't take the box kick (or whatever you want to call that attempt of a kick) that Reddan took.
The third one came after Owens gave a penalty advantage the wrong way (after we had put all our eggs into contesting a ruck that we clearly won in my opinion and it should have been a penalty to us for holding on); a couple of phases later and they kick through and we don't have a proper sweeper. Again, not much that can be done by Kurt.
Their second try was a case of he who dares stuff. 9 times out of 10, the Aki no-look fling pass or the Adeolokun chip and volley simply don't come off.

A number of times this season we have used the drift defence, as we did against Connacht. It has always looked terrible and we conceded masses of ground. If you were to pick our worst performances, I would imagine they all included us employing that system. There must have been some logic behind it but it is hard to see from the outside.
That said, while we coughed up lots of ground from it against Connacht, I don't think it was at fault for any of the tries...except maybe the second one but, even there, they needed all the stars to align for that try to come off.

To miss so many tackles in the final was not, in my opinion, down to our defensive coach. What I saw in that Connacht game was a lot of players who were either protecting themselves or crocked...as it has since transpired they were. Of our starting 10-15, 4 are now hors combat (to go Dexys). They were hardly fully fit for the final. Te'o seemed to be excelling himself in the missed tackle stake - with an eye on the England squad.

I am not happy with our coaching ticket and think it needs to be improved...but I think all the wailing on here totally ignores the context. The context of this season is that Leo (or whoever the coach was) was always going to be hamstrung. The context of the Connacht game appears to be that we fielded a load of crocked guys. If you assume the 4 that were withdrawn from the Ireland squad were playing with injuries, that gives us a pretty impressive list of injured/unavailable players for the final weekend: Healy, Toner, McCarthy (and we lost Kearney early), O'Brien, Van der Flier, Sexton, Fitz, D Kearney, R Kearney, Isa...who am I missing?
Now some people might call that an excuse but I call it context.
I would prefer to have any of the other head coaches in Ireland; I would prefer if we had a skills coach; I think we have two separate squads, which is a major problem, and I want the head coach to address this...and I want Leinster Rugby to address these deficiencies in general...but I think the notion that it is all down to coaching that we are underperforming is simply not true.

[Dave Cahill]

And there was me thinking that the injury list was irrelevant, the lack of a skills coach was irrelevant, player error was irrelevant, it was all down to coaching. I remember some lad calling the previous coach a whinger when he made pretty much the same points as you do about the injury and absence overhead. Ah, good times.

But leaving the reminiscing aside, are the above the same reasons why we conceded three tries against Edinburgh, three against Treviso, and five in two games against Ulster in the run in? Why we conceded 80 points in two games to Wasps including a 6 try shaming in Coventry? Or, maybe, whilst our defense looks good, particularly against poor and mediocre teams, it actually isn't.

[curates_egg]

Kurt out then?
Let's just piss into the wind.
I guess I would prefer if we actually started building up unit coaches.

Without going round in circles, I certainly never wanted Leo as a head coach and don't think he is really up to the task...but if we are judging him on this season, which is what this thread is about, we did far better in the league, brought through lots of new players (who were blocked under the previous coach) and managed our massively disrupted season quite well (and it is laughable to suggest MOC faced anything like the disruption our squad faced this season).
Am I envious of the coaching set-ups in other provinces? Yes. Do I think Leo and Girve are of the standard required? No. But I think some relativity is needed.

[Dave Cahill]

Kurt out then?
Let's just piss into the wind.
I guess I would prefer if we actually started building up unit coaches.

Without going round in circles, I certainly never wanted Leo as a head coach and don't think he is really up to the task...but if we are judging him on this season, which is what this thread is about, we did far better in the league, brought through lots of new players (who were blocked under the previous coach) and managed our massively disrupted season quite well (and it is laughable to suggest MOC faced anything like the disruption our squad faced this season).
Am I envious of the coaching set-ups in other provinces? Yes. Do I think Leo and Girve are of the standard required? No. But I think some relativity is needed.

Thats why we have all those stars on our jersey alright, for the league. We humiliated ourselves in Europe this season. Only Aironi and Calvisano have troubled the scorers less in the last 10 years and we won one game - against a team that hasn't managed to qualify for either of next seasons competitions. But even just saying that, 'we did far better in the league' illustrates the ongoing and increasing lack of ambition and retrograde development in this side over the last 4 years. Our league campaign paints the perfect miniature of where we are right now. Last year people were disappointed that we lost a European semi-final in extra time against the most expensively assembled side in the history of the european game. This year people don't really mind so much with losing to Connacht, sure isn't it great for them.

Playing guys in one match does not constitute bringing 'through lots of new players' - its picking them when the chips are down that counts, and we didn't. Its picking them when there are other options available that counts, and we didn't.

[Flash Gordon]

Leo, Girv and Kurt are all conservative rugby thinkers at this point. They may develop some of the Pat Lam outlook as years progress but it is more likely they will focus on development of Unit skills - the scrum, line-out, maul, re-start and back-line - rather than how to enrich our attack by counter-attack, earlier offloads, attacking passing from forwards etc.

.

I think we needed conservative coaching as a starting point. It's taken Lam a few years to get Connacht to this point.

Leinster need work on the basics. Defensive work has taken us to the point when where're starting to look at a skills coach (though maybe Kurt is that guy).

Defence first was definitely the right move IMO.

Our defense didn't appreciably improve. We conceeded two fewer tries in the same number of games with two pro12 post season games this season replacing two ECC post season games last season. So two fewer tries with two games at a lower level. We became harder for poor teams to score against alright, but we didn't really put much of a hitch in the gallop of the better teams. The performance against Connacht in the final was nothing short of a disgrace defensively. To be so badly caught out by a team playing exactly the same way as they always play is inexcusable.

Exactly, we did not defend well against teams that were actually any good. We were badly exposed against teams that gave the ball a bit of width - if teams weren't trucking the ball down the centre we struggled - we conceded 158 points in the Champions Cup making us one of the worst teams in the tournament defensively to go with coming first as the worst attacking team with just 4 tries!

I don't buy this sequential argument on training either - I remember MOC saying the same thing when he came in that he was focusing on defence and when that was solid he'd look at attack. There is absolutely no reason why you can't can't teach both - skills in particular is about constant repetition of often basic tasks so they become instinctive. This is so basic it's almost incomprehensible. It's a completely different level and I wouldn't even pretend to be in the same league as top level coaches obviously but when I was coaching kids I'd run these drills for kids over and over again and to be honest they complained and hated it but it took them from absolute no hopers to Leinster cup winners. When you see the way our skills have declined, the only reason Leo wouldn't ask for help is pride frankly and that's not ok.

[curates_egg]

Kurt out then?
Let's just piss into the wind.
I guess I would prefer if we actually started building up unit coaches.

Without going round in circles, I certainly never wanted Leo as a head coach and don't think he is really up to the task...but if we are judging him on this season, which is what this thread is about, we did far better in the league, brought through lots of new players (who were blocked under the previous coach) and managed our massively disrupted season quite well (and it is laughable to suggest MOC faced anything like the disruption our squad faced this season).
Am I envious of the coaching set-ups in other provinces? Yes. Do I think Leo and Girve are of the standard required? No. But I think some relativity is needed.

Thats why we have all those stars on our jersey alright, for the league. We humiliated ourselves in Europe this season. Only Aironi and Calvisano have troubled the scorers less in the last 10 years and we won one game - against a team that hasn't managed to qualify for either of next seasons competitions. But even just saying that, 'we did far better in the league' illustrates the ongoing and increasing lack of ambition and retrograde development in this side over the last 4 years. Our league campaign paints the perfect miniature of where we are right now. Last year people were disappointed that we lost a European semi-final in extra time against the most expensively assembled side in the history of the european game. This year people don't really mind so much with losing to Connacht, sure isn't it great for them.

Playing guys in one match does not constitute bringing 'through lots of new players' - its picking them when the chips are down that counts, and we didn't. Its picking them when there are other options available that counts, and we didn't.

Ah but I am not disagreeing with you that standards have fallen. But did anyone who was in Bordeaux in 2012 really think we hadn't reached the apex? I'd love us to get back to that standard but I just don't see it as realistic AT PRESENT, given the changed economic landscape of the game. What I want us to do is to perform to our potential and I would definitely agree that we are not. I also never imagined we would get Leo as a head coach and certainly don't think it is a great outcome for the club. But you would want to be pretty pig-headed to still insist that MOC did a good job here. You shrewdly refer to the semi final but ignore the fact that we got a cr@p group in Europe because he didn't put any work into the league. There is nothing inconsistent with believing he did a bad job and also recognising that Leo is not necessarily an improvement. We went backwards under MOC and are not yet going forward again.

Now I look at the fact that we will have a better seeding for the draw for Europe next year and the fact we have definitely developed our squad this year as a glass half-full scenario.
Of course, again, I would prefer if we had better coaches and were progressing but, given the hand we were given at the start of the year (cr@p Euro group, missing loads of players for loads of the season, new and unqualified coaches), I think the balance sheet is almost as good as could be expected...which gives us a platform to improve on. So, I would say - in the context - Leo and co had an ok first year. That is not the same as me saying I think that the current coaching ticket is optimal.

What I want to know is: what is your point? You want all our coaches sacked? You really want Kurt sacked? Should we start a #KurtOut thread for you? Who do you realistically think we will get in their place?
I naively thought we would be able to replace MOC with a better coach. When I look at the coaches in the other provinces, I still struggle to understand how we didn't but we are where we are.
I definitely hope we will be able to, at the very least, add to our coaching ticket very soon. However, I think it is also reasonable to acknowledge that this season was about as good as could have been expected in the circumstances.