Back Three Players through the Academy since 2012

[jimbobjoe]

Any others?

[goreyguy]

Any others?

other backs leinster overlooked and are succeeding elsewhere: Dave McSharry, Peter Robb, AJ McGinty.

but again this is identifying players to join the academy, my point is that are not doing a good job at identifying players at a younger age and supporting their development, they are relying on a small pool of players to come through from the rugby schools and hoping an outstanding talent will emerge from that small number of players.

[jimbobjoe]

Robb looks to have a bit of potential but maybe that's the impression I get due to his size - I haven't seen much of him. AJ won't do much at Sale with a weaker and poorer coached team around him (who was he competing with as schools?). McSharry - meh.

[dropkick]

The evidence as I see it is this. Few of the players who have been selected by Leinster and released or not selected at all, and who have gone on to get a second chance have managed to achieve enough that would cause the powers that be at Leinster to lose too much sleep over letting them go. We can not count or measure the ones who didn't get a second chance as we have nothing to measure.

Now, what's your "evidence" to the contrary?

Theres very few chances for players to make it. For that to happen they'll have to get into a top UBL club and hope to work their way to the first team and hope to avoid injuries etc. The numbers players quitting after they leave school is high because they don't have the time to work and play UBL rugby.

[LeinsterLeader]

Any others?

other backs leinster overlooked and are succeeding elsewhere: Dave McSharry, Peter Robb, AJ McGinty.

Now you really are deflecting

I have conceded Conn this season to you already (although its debateable which of these would come under missed ID and poor development, but lets leave that for now) and like I said if that was to continue standards would be slipping. But outside of Conn this year, what else have you got?

PS: Pictures are not necessary but are appreciated

[LeinsterLeader]

The evidence as I see it is this. Few of the players who have been selected by Leinster and released or not selected at all, and who have gone on to get a second chance have managed to achieve enough that would cause the powers that be at Leinster to lose too much sleep over letting them go. We can not count or measure the ones who didn't get a second chance as we have nothing to measure.

Now, what's your "evidence" to the contrary?

Theres very few chances for players to make it. For that to happen they'll have to get into a top UBL club and hope to work their way to the first team and hope to avoid injuries etc. The numbers players quitting after they leave school is high because they don't have the time to work and play UBL rugby.

Absolutely, I concede all this and it's very unfortunate but all that means is we can't measure these guys as to whether they where missed opportunities or not. Do I think there are guys there who were missed? Almost Certainly. But what evidence do we have that they would ever have made it anyway?

[goreyguy]

Any others?

other backs leinster overlooked and are succeeding elsewhere: Dave McSharry, Peter Robb, AJ McGinty.

Now you really are deflecting

I have conceded Conn this season to you already (although its debateable which of these would come under missed ID and poor development, but lets leave that for now) and like I said if that was to continue standards would be slipping. But outside of Conn this year, what else have you got?

PS: Pictures are not necessary but are appreciated

If you aren't going to address my point about leinster failing to identify talent at a younger age and developing so they aren't relying on a small pool of schools players i'm not going to address yours.

[goreyguy]

The evidence as I see it is this. Few of the players who have been selected by Leinster and released or not selected at all, and who have gone on to get a second chance have managed to achieve enough that would cause the powers that be at Leinster to lose too much sleep over letting them go. We can not count or measure the ones who didn't get a second chance as we have nothing to measure.

Now, what's your "evidence" to the contrary?

Theres very few chances for players to make it. For that to happen they'll have to get into a top UBL club and hope to work their way to the first team and hope to avoid injuries etc. The numbers players quitting after they leave school is high because they don't have the time to work and play UBL rugby.

Absolutely, I concede all this and it's very unfortunate but all that means is we can't measure these guys as to whether they where missed opportunities or not. Do I think there are guys there who were missed? Almost Certainly. But what evidence do we have that they would ever have made it anyway?

The evidence is Connacht, they took players deemed not good enough by Leinster and beat us with them. They identified and developed them.. something leinster have been unable to do for sometime when it comes to back three players. Weekend calls, i'll pick this back up on Monday.

[LeinsterLeader]

If you aren't going to address my point about leinster failing to identify talent at a younger age and developing so they aren't relying on a small pool of schools players i'm not going to address yours.

Well you only added your point in as an edit so It wasn't there when I replied. Having said that I won't address your point simply because I don't know enough about it. As I've said from the outset I'm only concerned with the evidence. Facts based on what we know to be true. So unless you can come up with something better than what I've offered I think that talent ID has shown to be very good over the last ten years.

[LeinsterLeader]

The evidence is Connacht, they took players deemed not good enough by Leinster and beat us with them. They identified and developed them.. something leinster have been unable to do for sometime when it comes to back three players. Weekend calls, i'll pick this back up on Monday.

Nope. I'm sorry you can't have that. I have already conceded Conn this year. That's why from the very outside I downgraded Leinsters ID from 'exceptional' to 'very good'. Anyhing else?

[ronk]

Theres very few chances for players to make it. For that to happen they'll have to get into a top UBL club and hope to work their way to the first team and hope to avoid injuries etc. The numbers players quitting after they leave school is high because they don't have the time to work and play UBL rugby.

Absolutely, I concede all this and it's very unfortunate but all that means is we can't measure these guys as to whether they where missed opportunities or not. Do I think there are guys there who were missed? Almost Certainly. But what evidence do we have that they would ever have made it anyway?

The evidence is Connacht, they took players deemed not good enough by Leinster and beat us with them. They identified and developed them.. something leinster have been unable to do for sometime when it comes to back three players. Weekend calls, i'll pick this back up on Monday.

There's more to it than one acts or one season. For years Leinster have been emphasising reliability and hard work in wingers, while generally ignoring flawed guys who could step someone in open space.

You could look at McFadden and D Kearney as hard working lads who did well in various systems but who aren't finishers. Joe wanted that. There was also a place for Fanning, that was the route we took. We weren't looking for someone to be Fionn Carr.

We're not going to develop guys who won't get a chance here.

Partly through necessity, we're tended to field fullbacks for a few years now and don't really have much love for specialist wingers. It's also not where the schools talent is coming through.

It's not like world class talent was missed. A few decent players who probably aren't international standard (hopefully I'm wrong).

We could really do with some talented young wingers, but it's not like we went out and signed finishers because of an identified need.


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[curates_egg]

The most surprising thing about this thread is that you are all just accepting that Healy is outstanding and "one that got away". I think he is being totally over-hammed. Put him in another side and he would be pretty average. He looks so good at Connacht because he is part of a well-drilled and coherent system, which covers up for his deficiencies. He's got a lot of pace and can run good lines...but he is a bit of a doormat and I've not been convinced by his fielding. He's like an older version of Fionn Carr (when he first broke through).
I think Healy is perhaps the greatest proof of how effective Lam and his team have been in developing and implementing a philosophy throughout the whole squad and ensuring everyone buys into that and fulfils their roles. I'm not sure how much of this was down to talent identification or having three years to work with players and totally mould them into this system.
I would actually think he is a very similar case to Dave Kearney with Joe Schmidt.
I'm not sure about Adeolokun yet. He is very raw but looks to have some pretty good physical attributes and skill.

I am not saying we aren't having a problem developing backs...I'm just saying that picking the two Connacht backs in question doesn't necessarily prove that point.

[COYBIB]

Anybody think we need to start playing the game? Conway was probably one of the most promising U20 players ever, certainly Irelands best ever back three player at that level, Kelleher a star at that level, both amongst if not THE most promising back three player coming through the academy ... poached to Munster and Connacht... Felix Jones before that... maybe we need to be always after other academy players too ... like this Stockdale lad in Ulster?

If we're not producing them and then when we do they get their head turned for somewhere else, why shouldn't we do the exact same thing? We've been on the receiving end of it for long enough. Half those Pro12 medals are hanging off the necks of Leinster men.

[dropkick]

The most surprising thing about this thread is that you are all just accepting that Healy is outstanding and "one that got away". I think he is being totally over-hammed. Put him in another side and he would be pretty average. He looks so good at Connacht because he is part of a well-drilled and coherent system, which covers up for his deficiencies. He's got a lot of pace and can run good lines...but he is a bit of a doormat and I've not been convinced by his fielding. He's like an older version of Fionn Carr (when he first broke through).
I think Healy is perhaps the greatest proof of how effective Lam and his team have been in developing and implementing a philosophy throughout the whole squad and ensuring everyone buys into that and fulfils their roles. I'm not sure how much of this was down to talent identification or having three years to work with players and totally mould them into this system.
I would actually think he is a very similar case to Dave Kearney with Joe Schmidt.
I'm not sure about Adeolokun yet. He is very raw but looks to have some pretty good physical attributes and skill.

I am not saying we aren't having a problem developing backs...I'm just saying that picking the two Connacht backs in question doesn't necessarily prove that point.

I'd agree that some players are better suited to particular type of game plans but I disagree on Healy.


Healy is suited to Connacht, yes, but Connacht are playing a superior brand of rugby to most teams in Europe. That to me highlights Leinster's failure. They need to implement a more skill based game rather than a physicality based game. All the praise this season has been about how great their defence is but the southern hemisphere sides (with the exception of SA) showed in the world cup that its better to concentrate on attack rather than defence.


Healy's defence is highlighted yet for every point he costs in defence, I bet he is earning more than double that because of his attacking play.

[dropkick]

Anybody think we need to start playing the game? Conway was probably one of the most promising U20 players ever, certainly Irelands best ever back three player at that level, Kelleher a star at that level, both amongst if not THE most promising back three player coming through the academy ... poached to Munster and Connacht... Felix Jones before that... maybe we need to be always after other academy players too ... like this Stockdale lad in Ulster?

If we're not producing them and then when we do they get their head turned for somewhere else, why shouldn't we do the exact same thing? We've been on the receiving end of it for long enough. Half those Pro12 medals are hanging off the necks of Leinster men.

I don't think Conway was a big loss to Leinster. He is a good player but never really kicked on. Kelleher looks like he might be a loss though.


Hugo Keenan and Mat Byrne have been very good for the U20s. Keenan in particular looks very talented. Didn't see much of Terry Kennedy but he is lightening quick and might also be worth an academy spot.