Back Three Players through the Academy since 2012

[goreyguy]

Darren Hudson(26) - future unknown
Andrew Boyle(25) - last seen playing AIL
Andrew Conway(24) - Munster
Sam Coghlan Murray(24) - future unknown
Mikey Sherlock(23) - last seen playing AIL
Adam Byrne(22) - Leinster Squad player
Ian Fitzpatrick(21) - Academy player
Cian Kelleher(21) - Connacht
Billy Dardis(21) - Academy player

With 4 under-20 Ireland u20 back three players this season, Leinster will likely have more incoming talent. Given the recent poor record at developing talented back three players and the current state of the senior squad at those positions you'd hope they will be more successful than recent years.

There is certainly a case to be made that there is lack of talent being produced from the underage structures at these positions. Is this due to poor talent identification & evaluation? Or a deeper lying problem with how back three players are developed from a young age in Leinster rugby? Is there too much position specialisation from a young age?

[wixfjord]

Do we need another thread on this?

[LeinsterLeader]

Do we need another thread on this?

That's what I said. But would anyone listen? No. And now what have we got? Anarchy that's what

[dropkick]

Something isn't right somewhere in the system. Compare Ulster to Leinster. Leinster are producing plenty forwards but few backs, Ulster are producing plenty of backs but few forwards. If the provinces came together and looked at how each other developed players, they could all learn from each other. Maybe they're doing it already under Nucifora?

[Armchair]

2 former back 3 Leinster club players with pro 12 winners medals, another former academy player playing in Munster. Problem is identifying, nurturing and keeping talent. Girv must have a few questions to answer

[goreyguy]

2 former back 3 Leinster club players with pro 12 winners medals, another former academy player playing in Munster. Problem is identifying, nurturing and keeping talent. Girv must have a few questions to answer

Yeah you have:

Matt Healy(27)
Niyi Adeolokun(25)
Andrew Conway(24)

elsewhere, although neither Healy or Niyi were ever part of the academy setup, they did play underage for Leinster.

Sadly we are losing a great talent in Conor Nash to AFL and losing Kelleher to Connacht doesn't help either.

[LeinsterLeader]

Given the thousands of players that have to be reviewed by the Leinster system every year and based on the evidence that very few players missed by Leinster have gone on to achieve huge success elsewhere would it not be fair to say that the talent identification is at least very good?

In fact if you take the lads from Conn this season out of the equation (and lets be honest the two guys mentioned where not over-night successes) would it not be fair to say that the talent identification has been exceptional all things considered?

[goreyguy]

Given the thousands of players that have to be reviewed by the Leinster system every year and based on the evidence that very few players missed by Leinster have gone on to achieve huge success elsewhere would it not be fair to say that the talent identification is at least very good?

In fact if you take the lads from Conn this season out of the equation (and lets be honest the two guys mentioned where not over-night successes) would it not be fair to say that the talent identification has been exceptional all things considered?

Many players not identified by Leinster haven't gone on to have success elsewhere because 99% of them don't get that opportunity.

I'm not sure how anyone can claim the talent identifcation at leinster for back three players over the past 5 years has been exceptional given the lack of players coming out of the system.

Now this may be down to a combination of poor talent development and luck..

[Oldschool]

Given the thousands of players that have to be reviewed by the Leinster system every year and based on the evidence that very few players missed by Leinster have gone on to achieve huge success elsewhere would it not be fair to say that the talent identification is at least very good?

In fact if you take the lads from Conn this season out of the equation (and lets be honest the two guys mentioned where not over-night successes) would it not be fair to say that the talent identification has been exceptional all things considered?

Many players not identified by Leinster haven't gone on to have success elsewhere because 99% of them don't get that opportunity.

I'm not sure how anyone can claim the talent identifcation at leinster for back three players over the past 5 years has been exceptional given the lack of players coming out of the system.

Now this may be down to a combination of poor talent development and luck..

Kind of begs the question who is our talent spotter and what criteria is he using.
There are quite a few ways of weeding potential players out knowing very little about rugby.
eg aptitude tests, pace, hand to eye coordination. Then you can drill a bit deeper in terms of muscle type, bone density, core strength.

[LeinsterLeader]

Given the thousands of players that have to be reviewed by the Leinster system every year and based on the evidence that very few players missed by Leinster have gone on to achieve huge success elsewhere would it not be fair to say that the talent identification is at least very good?

In fact if you take the lads from Conn this season out of the equation (and lets be honest the two guys mentioned where not over-night successes) would it not be fair to say that the talent identification has been exceptional all things considered?

Many players not identified by Leinster haven't gone on to have success elsewhere because 99% of them don't get that opportunity.

I'm not sure how anyone can claim the talent identifcation at leinster for back three players over the past 5 years has been exceptional given the lack of players coming out of the system.

Now this may be down to a combination of poor talent development and luck..

That's pure supposition on your part. In terms of talent identification their job is simply that "identifying the talent" if they don't someone else will. Are you telling me if Leinster were missing out on Diamonds in the rough other provinces or English clubs wouldn't be snapping them up.

I think you might be confusing talent identification with coaching.

[goreyguy]

Given the thousands of players that have to be reviewed by the Leinster system every year and based on the evidence that very few players missed by Leinster have gone on to achieve huge success elsewhere would it not be fair to say that the talent identification is at least very good?

In fact if you take the lads from Conn this season out of the equation (and lets be honest the two guys mentioned where not over-night successes) would it not be fair to say that the talent identification has been exceptional all things considered?

Many players not identified by Leinster haven't gone on to have success elsewhere because 99% of them don't get that opportunity.

I'm not sure how anyone can claim the talent identifcation at leinster for back three players over the past 5 years has been exceptional given the lack of players coming out of the system.

Now this may be down to a combination of poor talent development and luck..

Kind of begs the question who is our talent spotter and what criteria is he using.
There are quite a few ways of weeding potential players out knowing very little about rugby.
eg aptitude tests, pace, hand to eye coordination. Then you can drill a bit deeper in terms of muscle type, bone density, core strength.

I think it's a combination of poor talent development and talent identification.
Too often underage backs simply don't have the basic skills to be a professional player, let alone the advanced skills and athleticism required to be an elite back three player.

[goreyguy]

Given the thousands of players that have to be reviewed by the Leinster system every year and based on the evidence that very few players missed by Leinster have gone on to achieve huge success elsewhere would it not be fair to say that the talent identification is at least very good?

In fact if you take the lads from Conn this season out of the equation (and lets be honest the two guys mentioned where not over-night successes) would it not be fair to say that the talent identification has been exceptional all things considered?

Many players not identified by Leinster haven't gone on to have success elsewhere because 99% of them don't get that opportunity.

I'm not sure how anyone can claim the talent identifcation at leinster for back three players over the past 5 years has been exceptional given the lack of players coming out of the system.

Now this may be down to a combination of poor talent development and luck..

That's pure supposition on your part. In terms of talent identification their job is simply that "identifying the talent" if they don't someone else will. Are you telling me if Leinster were missing out on Diamonds in the rough other provinces or English clubs wouldn't be snapping them up.

I think you might be confusing talent identification with coaching.

Did Leinster miss out on Matt Healy and Niyi?
Why would english clubs be searching leinster for diamonds in the rough? they have more than enough players in england along with the money to buy in more foreigners.

Leinster have failed to identify and develop the athletes capable of being top quality back three players.
The players they did identify have either failed to develop sufficiently, see the list above.

Talent identification has to be better, Talent development has to much better.

As I've said before there are signs they've begun to get better at identifying players capable of being top level players but there isn't much signs they are capable of developing that talent, at least not yet.

[LeinsterLeader]

Many players not identified by Leinster haven't gone on to have success elsewhere because 99% of them don't get that opportunity.

I'm not sure how anyone can claim the talent identifcation at leinster for back three players over the past 5 years has been exceptional given the lack of players coming out of the system.

Now this may be down to a combination of poor talent development and luck..

That's pure supposition on your part. In terms of talent identification their job is simply that "identifying the talent" if they don't someone else will. Are you telling me if Leinster were missing out on Diamonds in the rough other provinces or English clubs wouldn't be snapping them up.

I think you might be confusing talent identification with coaching.

Did Leinster miss out on Matt Healy and Niyi?
Why would english clubs be searching leinster for diamonds in the rough? they have more than enough players in england along with the money to buy in more foreigners.

Leinster have failed to identify and develop the athletes capable of being top quality back three players.
The players they did identify have either failed to develop sufficiently, see the list above.

Talent identification has to be better, Talent development has to much better.

As I've said before there are signs they've begun to get better at identifying players capable of being top level players but there isn't much signs they are capable of developing that talent, at least not yet.

I'm not talking about development. That's a whole other argument. Let's stick with Identification of talent and the facts.

Yes they missed out on Healy and Niyi but the fact that these two are the only two guys you can use as a stick (based on facts that is) to beat the Leinster ID process kind of highlights my point (in fact in terms of talent ID I think Robb and Ronaldson where a much bigger miss). I would suggest that emergence of Healy and Niyi is more of a development issue than ID as neither were seen as anything too special until recently.

So like I said taking Conn this season out of the equation (which forced me to move the grade) the evidence (not supposition you understand) would suggest that ID is at least very good (although taking in Conn this season as a possible barometer the standards may be slipping).

[goreyguy]

I'm not talking about development. That's a whole other argument. Let's stick with Identification of talent and the facts.

Yes they missed out on Healy and Niyi but the fact that these two are the only two guys you can use as a stick (based on facts that is) to beat the Leinster ID process kind of highlights my point (in fact in terms of talent ID I think Robb and Ronaldson where a much bigger miss). I would suggest that emergence of Healy and Niyi is more of a development issue than ID as neither were seen as anything too special until recently.

So like I said taking Conn this season out of the equation (which forced me to move the grade) the evidence (not supposition you understand) would suggest that ID is at least very good (although taking in Conn this season as a possible barometer the standards may be slipping).

You cannot seperate identification from development, only those who are identified and manage to develop will get as far as the academy and beyond. And that is the point at which you are evaluating how good a job they are doing at identifying talent.

Because only those identified by Leinster get the support/coaching required to be professional players, the players who are discarded and not identified will not emerge at a later date to prove leinster have been doing a poor job at talent identification & development.

[LeinsterLeader]

I'm not talking about development. That's a whole other argument. Let's stick with Identification of talent and the facts.

Yes they missed out on Healy and Niyi but the fact that these two are the only two guys you can use as a stick (based on facts that is) to beat the Leinster ID process kind of highlights my point (in fact in terms of talent ID I think Robb and Ronaldson where a much bigger miss). I would suggest that emergence of Healy and Niyi is more of a development issue than ID as neither were seen as anything too special until recently.

So like I said taking Conn this season out of the equation (which forced me to move the grade) the evidence (not supposition you understand) would suggest that ID is at least very good (although taking in Conn this season as a possible barometer the standards may be slipping).

You cannot seperate identification from development, only those who are identified and manage to develop will get as far as the academy and beyond. And that is the point at which you are evaluating how good a job they are doing at identifying talent.

Because only those identified by Leinster get the support/coaching required to be professional players, the players who are discarded and not identified will not emerge at a later date to prove leinster have been doing a poor job at talent identification & development.

Of course you can separate them there hugely different things, inexplicably linked I grant you, but different non the less.

For example lets continue the Conn hypothesis. Healy has had a great season, no doubt about it. Would Leinster supporters want him in our team? I'm only guessing but I'd say in the main yes they would. However 2 years or so ago when he was playing for the Conn Eagles I think most would also have said "No thanks". I think at that point it would be fair to say ID got that one right (from a Leinster perspective). However, at that point Development kicked in. Whatever they did (or he did) at Conn from there in brought him to the player he is today.

On the flip side (just for some balance like) lets take Ronaldson. There's a guy who has very quickly got up to speed at Pro12 level, not a huge amount of Development needed. Any Development he makes from this point on is pure gravy (A bit like the point you continuously make re Ringrose). He was pretty much ready to go (within reason). That in my opinion is bad ID.

However, like I've said I'm struggling to thing of too many other occasions something similar has happened with players passing through the Academy so purely in terms of Identification I think Leinster have done pretty well.

[goreyguy]

I'm not talking about development. That's a whole other argument. Let's stick with Identification of talent and the facts.

Yes they missed out on Healy and Niyi but the fact that these two are the only two guys you can use as a stick (based on facts that is) to beat the Leinster ID process kind of highlights my point (in fact in terms of talent ID I think Robb and Ronaldson where a much bigger miss). I would suggest that emergence of Healy and Niyi is more of a development issue than ID as neither were seen as anything too special until recently.

So like I said taking Conn this season out of the equation (which forced me to move the grade) the evidence (not supposition you understand) would suggest that ID is at least very good (although taking in Conn this season as a possible barometer the standards may be slipping).

You cannot seperate identification from development, only those who are identified and manage to develop will get as far as the academy and beyond. And that is the point at which you are evaluating how good a job they are doing at identifying talent.

Because only those identified by Leinster get the support/coaching required to be professional players, the players who are discarded and not identified will not emerge at a later date to prove leinster have been doing a poor job at talent identification & development.

Of course you can separate them there hugely different things, inexplicably linked I grant you, but different non the less.

For example lets continue the Conn hypothesis. Healy has had a great season, no doubt about it. Would Leinster supporters want him in our team? I'm only guessing but I'd say in the main yes they would. However 2 years or so ago when he was playing for the Conn Eagles I think most would also have said "No thanks". I think at that point it would be fair to say ID got that one right (from a Leinster perspective). However, at that point Development kicked in. Whatever they did (or he did) at Conn from there in brought him to the player he is today.

On the flip side (just for some balance like) lets take Ronaldson. There's a guy who has very quickly got up to speed at Pro12 level, not a huge amount of Development needed. Any Development he makes from this point on is pure gravy (A bit like the point you continuously make re Ringrose). He was pretty much ready to go (within reason). That in my opinion is bad ID.

However, like I've said I'm struggling to thing of too many other occasions something similar has happened with players passing through the Academy so purely in terms of Identification I think Leinster have done pretty well.

There is plenty of raw athletic talent in the province, if it had been identified early enough and given the right coaching & development opportunities there would have been more options for our academy to choose from. Hence why Nucifora is bringing in this new Talent ID coach, to improve the talent identification throughout the province.

Niyi and Matt Healy are the tip of the iceberg.
The Leinster system of identifying and then developing back three players fell way off in recent years and that is reflected by the quality of the back three players in the senior squad, academy and at underage level.

[LeinsterLeader]

There is plenty of raw athletic talent in the province, if it had been identified early enough and given the right coaching & development opportunities there would have been more options for our academy to choose from. Hence why Nucifora is bringing in this new Talent ID coach, to improve the talent identification throughout the province.

Niyi and Matt Healy are the tip of the iceberg.
The Leinster system of identifying and then developing back three players fell way off in recent years and that is reflected by the quality of the back three players in the senior squad, academy and at underage level.

Again that is pure supposition on your part. You have no evidence to prove that players not picked by Leinster (the ones identified at Conn this season aside) would have been any better then the players selected. The only evidence that would counter this argument would be if any of these players had gone on to make it elsewhere, that hasn't happened in any great number that i'm aware of. You make the point that they were not giving the chance and while I sympathise that can not be used as evidence against Leinster as it is not quantifiable. We can't measure what never happened.

[goreyguy]

There is plenty of raw athletic talent in the province, if it had been identified early enough and given the right coaching & development opportunities there would have been more options for our academy to choose from. Hence why Nucifora is bringing in this new Talent ID coach, to improve the talent identification throughout the province.

Niyi and Matt Healy are the tip of the iceberg.
The Leinster system of identifying and then developing back three players fell way off in recent years and that is reflected by the quality of the back three players in the senior squad, academy and at underage level.

Again that is pure supposition on your part. You have no evidence to prove that players not picked by Leinster (the ones identified at Conn this season aside) would have been any better then the players selected. The only evidence that would counter this argument would be if any of these players had gone on to make it elsewhere, that hasn't happened in any great number that i'm aware of. You make the point that they were not giving the chance and while I sympathise that can not be used as evidence against Leinster as it is not quantifiable. We can't measure what never happened.

Again these players are lost to professional rugby because they don't get the same support and coaching as those who are chosen, (it's not easy to make it professionally if you dont have the top level coaches/support). It's no coincedence that the vast majority of leinster players went to private schools which focused on developing them as rugby players, giving them the support to be top level professionals. Niyi, Healy, McSharry, Robb, Ronaldson, McGinty are all backs overlooked by Leinster, who with the right coaching were more than good enough, Leinster didn't identify this, so how exactly has back talent ID been very good for Leinster?

Call is supposition all you want but to suggest that there isn't more potential top professionals in the province just because those who have been overlooked didn't make it elsewhere is bizarre. There are plenty more potential professionals in the province if they are identified young enough, developed well enough and get a bit of luck with injury etc. To suggest otherwise would be to say Leinster are operating at close to maximum efficiency and that simply is not the case. With the right coaching and talent identification there is no reason why Leinster can't develop high level rugby players in the back three or elsewhere.

A province as big as Leinster shouldnt be happy by the quality of back three players they've identified and developed over the past 5 years. They could be doing a much better job, both in terms of identifying talent athletes earlier and helping them to develop into potential professionals. Hence Nucifora getting involved with these new Talent ID coaches.

[LeinsterLeader]

Again these players are lost to professional rugby because they don't get the same support and coaching as those who are chosen, (it's not easy to make it professionally if you dont have the top level coaches/support). It's no coincedence that the vast majority of leinster players went to private schools which focused on developing them as rugby players, giving them the support to be top level professionals. Niyi, Healy, McSharry, Robb, Ronaldson, McGinty are all backs overlooked by Leinster, who with the right coaching were more than good enough, Leinster didn't identify this, so how exactly has back talent ID been very good for Leinster?

Call is supposition all you want but to suggest that there isn't more potential top professionals in the province just because those who have been overlooked didn't make it elsewhere is bizarre. There are plenty more potential professionals in the province if they are identified young enough, developed well enough and get a bit of luck with injury etc. To suggest otherwise would be to say Leinster are operating at close to maximum efficiency and that simply is not the case. With the right coaching and talent identification there is no reason why Leinster can't develop high level rugby players in the back three or elsewhere.

A province as big as Leinster shouldnt be happy by the quality of back three players they've identified and developed over the past 5 years. They could be doing a much better job, both in terms of identifying talent athletes earlier and helping them to develop into potential professionals. Hence Nucifora getting involved with these new Talent ID coaches.

Look you're deflecting from my point, so I'm going to break it down for you. I am not even suggesting that ID are doing a very good job (that is by belief but it's not what I am suggesting). What I am suggesting is that the majority of the "evidence" points to fact that they are doing a very good job.

The evidence as I see it is this. Few of the players who have been selected by Leinster and released or not selected at all, and who have gone on to get a second chance have managed to achieve enough that would cause the powers that be at Leinster to lose too much sleep over letting them go. We can not count or measure the ones who didn't get a second chance as we have nothing to measure.

Now, what's your "evidence" to the contrary?

[goreyguy]

Again these players are lost to professional rugby because they don't get the same support and coaching as those who are chosen, (it's not easy to make it professionally if you dont have the top level coaches/support). It's no coincedence that the vast majority of leinster players went to private schools which focused on developing them as rugby players, giving them the support to be top level professionals. Niyi, Healy, McSharry, Robb, Ronaldson, McGinty are all backs overlooked by Leinster, who with the right coaching were more than good enough, Leinster didn't identify this, so how exactly has back talent ID been very good for Leinster?

Call is supposition all you want but to suggest that there isn't more potential top professionals in the province just because those who have been overlooked didn't make it elsewhere is bizarre. There are plenty more potential professionals in the province if they are identified young enough, developed well enough and get a bit of luck with injury etc. To suggest otherwise would be to say Leinster are operating at close to maximum efficiency and that simply is not the case. With the right coaching and talent identification there is no reason why Leinster can't develop high level rugby players in the back three or elsewhere.

A province as big as Leinster shouldnt be happy by the quality of back three players they've identified and developed over the past 5 years. They could be doing a much better job, both in terms of identifying talent athletes earlier and helping them to develop into potential professionals. Hence Nucifora getting involved with these new Talent ID coaches.

Look you're deflecting from my point, so I'm going to break it down for you. I am not even suggesting that ID are doing a very good job (that is by belief but it's not what I am suggesting). What I am suggesting is that the majority of the "evidence" points to fact that they are doing a very good job.

The evidence as I see it is this. Few of the players who have been selected by Leinster and released or not selected at all, and who have gone on to get a second chance have managed to achieve enough that would cause the powers that be at Leinster to lose too much sleep over letting them go. We can not count or measure the ones who didn't get a second chance as we have nothing to measure.

Now, what's your "evidence" to the contrary?

Both overlooked by Leinster and if were not for Connacht, you'd be saying there is no evidence that leinster are poor identifying talent raw players with top level potential and that leinster were doing as good as job as can be expected, when they aren't.