Academy 2016/2017

[goreyguy]

Marmion played 14 times for Ireland u20 via exiles so he was pretty highly regarded/well flagged, that he was signed on a senior contract not academy reinforces that

he was not considered a top tier prospect irregardless of how many games he played for Ireland u20 or how quickly he left the Connacht academy.

Leinster have had several backs with similar profile at u20 level, who have not developed in the Leinster academy.

[sunshiner1]

not sure what value B&I cup has in terms individual development of skills

Agreed. Some teams and provinces don't take it seriously. Carolan at Connacht has stated that he is more concerned about the players development and skill factors rather than results at that level.

You could argue it is like comparing Ruddock to Carolan at Ireland Under 20's. Ruddock was more results orientated while Carolan cares more about getting the systems and skills right. Considering that the U20's are the the verge of making history I'd be a bigger fan of Carolan's method but feel we are using Ruddock's.

[simonokeeffe]

Marmion played 14 times for Ireland u20 via exiles so he was pretty highly regarded/well flagged, that he was signed on a senior contract not academy reinforces that

he was not considered a top tier prospect irregardless of how many games he played for Ireland u20 or how quickly he left the Connacht academy.

Leinster have had several backs with similar profile at u20 level, who have not developed in the Leinster academy.

Then why did Connacht not sign him into their academy instead of a full contract?

TOH trained with their academy while still still in school and played for senior side before u20s. That fits the bill of elite level prospect

[goreyguy]

They were the best prospects connacht had in a long time but from an irish perspective neither were elite prospects. Most of leinsters recent academy players would have been viewed as elite prospects by connacht standards and all of them would have made the connacht academy.

[simonokeeffe]

So Connachts academy is better than ours but has lower standards and expectations?

[goreyguy]

So Connachts academy is better than ours but has lower standards and expectations?

It's easier to get into the Connacht academy than it is to get into the Leinster one.
Marmion and TOH would have been good enough to make the Leinster academy but they would not have been viewed as elite prospects when they were u20. They were very good prospects just like almost all of the backs that leinster have taken into the academy in the past 5 years.
The connacht academy/setup has done a better job at developing those backs in the past 5 years than the Leinster one.

[simonokeeffe]

Mainly cos theyve no one else to play

Good to clear up difference between elite and very good though

[Dave Cahill]

Mainly cos theyve no one else to play

Good to clear up difference between elite and very good though

Its like grading second hand vinyl

[simonokeeffe]

Mainly cos theyve no one else to play

Good to clear up difference between elite and very good though

Its like grading second hand vinyl

[goreyguy]

Quite a few leinster underage players not participating in training this summer for interpros due to high time demanded by coaches for no financial reward.
Mostly seems to be happening at u20 level, where players are expected to train 5 days a week.
None of the 6th years from Belvedere last season are participating from what i've been told, some good players there in Ireland u19 backrow Tom De Jongh, Ireland u19 wing James McKeown & Centre Conor Jennings.

[Pendragon]

Quite a few leinster underage players not participating in training this summer for interpros due to high time demanded by coaches for no financial reward.
Mostly seems to be happening at u20 level, where players are expected to train 5 days a week.
None of the 6th years from Belvedere last season are participating from what i've been told, some good players there in Ireland u19 backrow Tom De Jongh, Ireland u19 wing James McKeown & Centre Conor Jennings.

That is a great shame, big demands from young lads tho. I thought the U20 interpros were gone this year? A development competition instead, is that why some do not fancy it?

[hugonaut]

Quite a few leinster underage players not participating in training this summer for interpros due to high time demanded by coaches for no financial reward.
Mostly seems to be happening at u20 level, where players are expected to train 5 days a week.
None of the 6th years from Belvedere last season are participating from what i've been told, some good players there in Ireland u19 backrow Tom De Jongh, Ireland u19 wing James McKeown & Centre Conor Jennings.

Very impressed with James McKeown in the cup last season – I think he's an excellent professional prospect. Good build, good pace, a threat from everywhere on the pitch and a serious nose for the try-line. Never heard of anybody scoring five tries in the semi-final and final of the same cup campaign. Also happy to see the Belvo coaching staff play him on the wing and not at centre or fullback ... it seems to me [going back to Denis Hickie, and including Luke Fitz and Keith Earls] that there's a bit of positional snobbery about wing, especially from the players' perspective: the 'dumb winger' cliche. It's like they see it as an insult to their overall skillset if they're overlooked for either No13 or No15.

With regards to training/not training over summer, I'd have mixed feelings about that. Firstly, club [amateur] players do it all the time! Maybe not five days a week, but they put in a lot of effort and juggle their social and family schedules around after their work commitments in order to train. Secondly, just because you get selected for a Leinster U20s training squad, it doesn't mean that you're a prince of a player that Leinster can't afford to do without. I agree that it's a sacrifice to put a post-Leaving Cert summer on the back-burner and train your b*llocks off every day, but there you go. It's a pretty clear cut decision.

[goreyguy]

Quite a few leinster underage players not participating in training this summer for interpros due to high time demanded by coaches for no financial reward.
Mostly seems to be happening at u20 level, where players are expected to train 5 days a week.
None of the 6th years from Belvedere last season are participating from what i've been told, some good players there in Ireland u19 backrow Tom De Jongh, Ireland u19 wing James McKeown & Centre Conor Jennings.

That is a great shame, big demands from young lads tho. I thought the U20 interpros were gone this year? A development competition instead, is that why some do not fancy it?

They are they've been replaced by Development interpros.. Basically not limiting the interpro teams to players born in 1997. Will hopefully strengthen Connacht/Ulster.

They don't fancy it from what i've been told because it's 5 days of full time work without pay for no guarantee of gametime or even a sub academy position. It used to be 3 days a week but this year it's 5, some lads simply prefer to work and earn some money. Can't blame them.

[goreyguy]

Quite a few leinster underage players not participating in training this summer for interpros due to high time demanded by coaches for no financial reward.
Mostly seems to be happening at u20 level, where players are expected to train 5 days a week.
None of the 6th years from Belvedere last season are participating from what i've been told, some good players there in Ireland u19 backrow Tom De Jongh, Ireland u19 wing James McKeown & Centre Conor Jennings.

Very impressed with James McKeown in the cup last season – I think he's an excellent professional prospect. Good build, good pace, a threat from everywhere on the pitch and a serious nose for the try-line. Never heard of anybody scoring five tries in the semi-final and final of the same cup campaign. Also happy to see the Belvo coaching staff play him on the wing and not at centre or fullback ... it seems to me [going back to Denis Hickie, and including Luke Fitz and Keith Earls] that there's a bit of positional snobbery about wing, especially from the players' perspective: the 'dumb winger' cliche. It's like they see it as an insult to their overall skillset if they're overlooked for either No13 or No15.

With regards to training/not training over summer, I'd have mixed feelings about that. Firstly, club [amateur] players do it all the time! Maybe not five days a week, but they put in a lot of effort and juggle their social and family schedules around after their work commitments in order to train. Secondly, just because you get selected for a Leinster U20s training squad, it doesn't mean that you're a prince of a player that Leinster can't afford to do without. I agree that it's a sacrifice to put a post-Leaving Cert summer on the back-burner and train your b*llocks off every day, but there you go. It's a pretty clear cut decision.

I'd rather a underage player played 13 or 15 to hopefully widen his skillset, also i'm sure McKeown was on the wing as Belvo had excellent players at both 15 and 13. McKeown used to play centre earlier in his career so hopefully his skillset has been sharpened. Him not training this summer doesn't bode well for him making the leinster academy though. I thought all three lads I mentioned had a chance of making it if they had big seasons.

Club players aren't asked to give up 5 full days of your week to train like a professional. The lads essentially have to give up their summer and the majority won't get much reward down the line for doing it and none will get rewarded this summer for doing it. I don't think any of the lads not playing think they are too good for training, I think it comes down to coaches asking too much of 19 year olds who don't see the short or long term reward for spending their summer training with leinster for free. Maybe if it wasn't increased from 3 days to 5, more lads would have been able to justify that sacrifice.

What do the interpros actually decide? The ireland u20 squad usually doesn't change that much from the Ireland u19 squad year on year. For the vast majority of players who train and play in the interpros it has little effect on their professional rugby futures. Maybe these lads are better off focusing on playing for their club and making an impact at 1A level if they can.

I'll be interested to see what lads are missing come interpro time and the short term consequences this may have and if it is a trend that will continue.

[neilinboston]

Quite a few leinster underage players not participating in training this summer for interpros due to high time demanded by coaches for no financial reward.
Mostly seems to be happening at u20 level, where players are expected to train 5 days a week.
None of the 6th years from Belvedere last season are participating from what i've been told, some good players there in Ireland u19 backrow Tom De Jongh, Ireland u19 wing James McKeown & Centre Conor Jennings.

That is a great shame, big demands from young lads tho. I thought the U20 interpros were gone this year? A development competition instead, is that why some do not fancy it?

They are they've been replaced by Development interpros.. Basically not limiting the interpro teams to players born in 1997. Will hopefully strengthen Connacht/Ulster.

They don't fancy it from what i've been told because it's 5 days of full time work without pay for no guarantee of gametime or even a sub academy position. It used to be 3 days a week but this year it's 5, some lads simply prefer to work and earn some money. Can't blame them.

This is a pile of bollix. If any of these kids want a pro career but aren't willing to give up a few quid or some beers to train hard then they won't pan out as pros.
If the lack of a guarantee of return on investment turns them off I hope none of them have targeted finance careers once their lukewarm pro athlete aspirations fizzle out.

[goreyguy]

As hugo said players have a clear decision to make.
And this summer quite a few have opted to make the decision to forego living and training like professionals(5 full days a week) for no financial reward.
This previously didn't happen as much when the demands weren't as high(3 days versus 5)
Maybe these lads wouldn't have made it anyway, but some talented players have decided to not partake this summer.
This comes on the heals of Munster looking like they will lose academy players to clubs abroad as the financial offer is more attractive and Leinster losing Conor Nash to AFL, due to financial reasons also.
At some point players will sacrifice only so much before they will look to be fairly compensated. I don't think it's too much to pay players a fair wage for what is demanded of them.

[Oldschool]

As hugo said players have a clear decision to make.
And this summer quite a few have opted to make the decision to forego living and training like professionals(5 full days a week) for no financial reward.
This previously didn't happen as much when the demands weren't as high(3 days versus 5)
Maybe these lads wouldn't have made it anyway, but some talented players have decided to not partake this summer.
This comes on the heals of Munster looking like they will lose academy players to clubs abroad as the financial offer is more attractive and Leinster losing Conor Nash to AFL, due to financial reasons also.
At some point players will sacrifice only so much before they will look to be fairly compensated. I don't think it's too much to pay players a fair wage for what is demanded of them.

If you take a philosophical view of things, we all four score years of life expectancy.
It's unrealistic to expect anyone to give up any substantial amount of that time without recompense.
The whole thing smacks of a bankers approach to things where they deem themselves very important and the rest of us don't count.
F^cking bail in legislation only encourages the f^ckers.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

I don't think it's that mad. Thinking back to when I was 18 if someone told me I could train at a high level for the summer then money wouldn't have been the first thing on my mind, I'd just have been thinking of improving and the possibility of being noticed. Don't forget the players are benefiting too. That might be easy for me to say given that I don't live far from Leinster HQ but it's not like travelling is a new concept with regards to sport. I don't remember asking my school to pay me/my train fare when we'd travel down to Cork. I'm not against them receiving expenses for it if necessary but that's about all they could expect unless Nucifora has found an extra couple of million down the back of the sofa.

It might be harder for some than others but it's hardly a ludicrous idea either.

[simonokeeffe]

Also depends when training is on too, eg you train mon wed fri daytime well then youre employment opportunities are massively limited as it is

[Armchair]

a lot of the players that haven't made the grade towards the end of the summer with the Leinster 20s have been treated very badly, hopefully Smyth & McNamara bring a new approach but lots o horror stories from parents and kids that they were only there to make up the numbers to have decent training sessions and it was very obvious from day one who was favorite to progress and who wasn't. Of those that progress very few actually go on to get an academy spot 6/7 per year possibly. Have heard of now ex academy coaches who have told players they were never under consideration for an academy or sub academy spot despite being kept all summer. Lads being told they are being let go with no explanation seems ridiculous but that was the norm. If a young lad is let go the least that should be said is that we think you need to improve in certain areas and we will be keeping an eye on you throughout the season and talking to your club coach to see how you are progressing. Simple statement that would keep a young lad happy but unbelievably was never said. Then if you do make sub academy you are up at 5.30/6am 4/5 days a week for gym work and only 5/6 of these lads will make it. Academy up to now only have themselves and poor off field man management skills to blame for lads not wanting to commit. Same now up to 45/50 lads being brought in only 10/15% will make it 40/50% will give up rugby all together because they thought they would make it and are to gutted to continue and are burnt out and start enjoying their time out. The remainder stay playing for a while but a further 20% or so will be finished playing within 3 years. Not exact figures but that has been the trend.