How can the back three be improved in the short/long term?

[Peg Leg]

Connacht aren't helping Kelleher out. They are utilising a quality player.

I think the growth of the game across the province is much more important than the accolades of any one school, including my alma mater. I am saying that having a core group of players in a squad that are from the same place can contribute to a winning culture which is the most powerful thing of all in growing the fanbase.

A good few more posts to read in this thread, but I have to respond here. This bullshit about " real rugby blokes" and the values you mention in another thread leave a heavy tang of elitist wankerism. I've never played a competitive game of rugby in my life but I've been a sth since 08 only missing the 1 season since. But I'm probably the type of riff raff you'd rather not have associated with the sport... good look growing the game with that attitude.

In response to your references to "Bullshit"..."elitist wankerism"..."riff raff you'd rather not have associated with the sport"...

For the record, I don't believe you have to have played or have gone to a 'rugby school' to have standing or merit on this forum or in any other rugby-related environment. On reflection the only ask I have is that anyone who participates in the sport of rugby understands and upholds its values. Otherwise we could be any community talking about anything in any way we choose - rather than a rugby community that experiences and upholds rugby in all its forms.

(1) My reference to "real rugby blokes" is my way of calling out some of the forum "silverbacks" who snidely retort to sincere commentary. If they don't agree with me then fine. But respond with reasoned points of view in keeping with...

(2) The "values" of our game which I said weren't well represented by a particular thread. I made that remark based on what I feel and understand over a lifetime of involvement in the sport. But that's just my opinion. Before responding to you, I checked what the values of our sport officially are according to World Rugby's web-site and I got this:

In 2009 the World Rugby member unions identified integrity, passion, solidarity, discipline and respect as the defining character-building characteristics of rugby. These are now collectively known as the World Rugby values and are incorporated within the World Rugby Playing Charter, a guiding document aimed at preserving rugby’s unique character and ethos both on and off the field of play.  

The core values enable participants immediately to understand the character of the games and what makes it distinctive as a sport which is played by people of all shapes and sizes.

There is more detail here. http://www.worldrugby.org/welcome-to-ru ... es?lang=en

Personally I am very comfortable with those values although I think they are too focused on the players and should be refined to be inclusive of the volunteers and the fans. I do believe the players (not retired ones) are the most important, but not elitist, stakeholders in the game because their actions either reenforce or undermine the sport on a daily basis. To a lesser but still important extent, how we conduct ourselves on this forum either upholds or diminish those values and the sport we share.

Interestingly, other Unions have put their own spin on the values:

Ireland: Respect, Integrity, Inclusivity, Fun, Excellence

Scotland: Scottish Rugby's core values are respect, leadership, achievement, engagement and enjoyment.

England: Rugby’s values of Teamwork, Respect, Enjoyment, Discipline and Sportsmanship are what makes the game special for those who enjoy the environment and culture they create. They define the game and define England Rugby.

I am still comfortable with these variations and I wasn't comfortable with that thread because it didn't sit well with my sense of what the rugby community is about and I said so.

For me "real rugby blokes and women" are people who share and uphold these values. As I said, this is what I felt before I looked it up. I don't think it is a mantra that is being forced on us. These are the values that I recognise in my experience of the sport over many years. I am not saying my experience or its longevity is better than anyone else's but I am confident enough that I am aligned to the culture that, while always necessarily evolving, is the culture that was forged long before I was thought of and is worth upholding.

All of the 14 descriptors used by World Rugby and those 3 Unions sit well with me and if I use the phrase "real rugby people" again then you will know that is what I am alluding to.

I deliberately used the expression "real rugby blokes" because it resonated with me at the time or posting. It is close to the phrase that Martin Corry had used in a tweet to honour Anthony Foley on the day he died when he described how Foley would be a bruising opponent on the pitch but always made the effort to seek out his opposite number to share a drink and chat with after the match. That is another iteration of what a proper rugby bloke is. It's a tradition under threat, if not almost extinct, in professional rugby...and one more example of what is worth preserving in our sport.

In the thread that slagged off Munster players it was mainly an issue of respect, solidarity and sportsmanship. As regards the point about the value of strong playing relationships within a squad I am thinking in terms of teamwork, solidarity and above all passion for each other - as well as the jersey, province, country - in what is an (all too) gladiatorial and attritional sport.

Grand, don't want to have a tit for tat on this. But the point still stands albeit with a better catalogue of evidence, you will struggle to grow the game with an attitude that is based on grand values by folks who's rose tinted glasses have blocked out the all the craic they had before old age tinted their glasses. There is plenty of jocular behaviour not becoming of the "values" mentioned above and I don't think you can expect the fans to enjoy game if they can't participate emotionally in the events. The jokes are allowed to be enjoyed by people who weren't on the pitch.


I was merely going to reply with "Yeah, but Wales".

I wouldn't be using core values as a basis for any argument, the days of core values being anything other than something nice to aim for are well gone.

The Fox Nation is committed to the core principles of tolerance, open debate, civil discourse, and fair and balanced coverage of the news.

Global Compact
Since 2002, Volkswagen has been involved in one of the largest and most important CSR initiatives in the world – Global Compact.
The Ten Principles of

Human rights
Working standards
Environmental protection and
Combating corruption

form the core values of Global Compact.

Closer to home, I recall attending a meeting with a €300m+ company board with the intent to create the company's "core value " list, whereby it ensured the first letter of each "core" value began with the following letters: P-R-I-D-E. The irony was lost on them.

[backrower8]

Grand, don't want to have a tit for tat on this. But the point still stands albeit with a better catalogue of evidence, you will struggle to grow the game with an attitude that is based on grand values by folks who's rose tinted glasses have blocked out the all the craic they had before old age tinted their glasses. There is plenty of jocular behaviour not becoming of the "values" mentioned above and I don't think you can expect the fans to enjoy game if they can't participate emotionally in the events. The jokes are allowed to be enjoyed by people who weren't on the pitch.

I was merely going to reply with "Yeah, but Wales".

I wouldn't be using core values as a basis for any argument, the days of core values being anything other than something nice to aim for are well gone.

The Fox Nation is committed to the core principles of tolerance, open debate, civil discourse, and fair and balanced coverage of the news.

Global Compact
Since 2002, Volkswagen has been involved in one of the largest and most important CSR initiatives in the world – Global Compact.
The Ten Principles of

Human rights
Working standards
Environmental protection and
Combating corruption

form the core values of Global Compact.

Closer to home, I recall attending a meeting with a €300m+ company board with the intent to create the company's "core value " list, whereby it ensured the first letter of each "core" value began with the following letters: P-R-I-D-E. The irony was lost on them.

Eh, we might stick to rugby to make our points and core values will be used and held dear and updated or this open movement of a sport may as well be Boards.ie/any community heading in any direction any person chooses to take it in. Communities don't work like that, online or offline.

That is also a somewhat cynical and definitely ageist take on the values put forward which include fun by the IRFU and enjoyment from the SRFU and RFU. Imagine the old farts thinking of that...remembering it even?

Fun wasn't invented anytime recently. The game...all games are built around fun and certainly rugby is reknowned for fun being almost as big as the game itself - so this forum is not the introducer of fun and please don't portray 'values' as encrusted, boring, old fashioned encumbrances. Most of us have no issues with and in fact identify with the 14 values from those 4 governing bodies...or do you? Which ones would you delete and/or add?

The point about that thread was that it had overstepped the mark...and sure 'marks' are alwayds changing,always will,...but most people agree that online forums have an edge about them and can be over-the-top. So what's wrong with believing in better (Sky) or putting the hand up and saying "down with this sort of thing...in the name of Rugg-ah!"

[Oldschoolsocks]

...
For the record, I don't believe you have to have played or have gone to a 'rugby school' to have standing or merit on this forum or in any other rugby-related environment. On reflection the only ask I have is that anyone who participates in the sport of rugby understands and upholds its values. Otherwise we could be any community talking about anything in any way we choose - rather than a rugby community that experiences and upholds rugby in all its forms.

(1) My reference to "real rugby blokes" is my way of calling out some of the forum "silverbacks" who snidely retort to sincere commentary. If they don't agree with me then fine. But respond with reasoned points of view in keeping with...

(2) The "values" of our game which I said weren't well represented by a particular thread. I made that remark based on what I feel and understand over a lifetime of involvement in the sport. But that's just my opinion. Before responding to you, I checked what the values of our sport officially are according to World Rugby's web-site and I got this:

In 2009 the World Rugby member unions identified integrity, passion, solidarity, discipline and respect as the defining character-building characteristics of rugby. These are now collectively known as the World Rugby values and are incorporated within the World Rugby Playing Charter, a guiding document aimed at preserving rugby’s unique character and ethos both on and off the field of play.  

The core values enable participants immediately to understand the character of the games and what makes it distinctive as a sport which is played by people of all shapes and sizes.

There is more detail here. http://www.worldrugby.org/welcome-to-ru ... es?lang=en

...

Interestingly, other Unions have put their own spin on the values:

Ireland: Respect, Integrity, Inclusivity, Fun, Excellence

Scotland: Scottish Rugby's core values are respect, leadership, achievement, engagement and enjoyment.

England: Rugby’s values of Teamwork, Respect, Enjoyment, Discipline and Sportsmanship are what makes the game special for those who enjoy the environment and culture they create. They define the game and define England Rugby.

I am still comfortable with these variations and I wasn't comfortable with that thread because it didn't sit well with my sense of what the rugby community is about and I said so.

For me "real rugby blokes and women" are people who share and uphold these values.
...
I am not saying my experience or its longevity is better than anyone else's but I am confident enough that I am aligned to the culture that, while always necessarily evolving, is the culture that was forged long before I was thought of and is worth upholding.

...

I deliberately used the expression "real rugby blokes" because it resonated with me at the time or posting. It is close to the phrase that Martin Corry had used in a tweet to honour Anthony Foley on the day he died when he described how Foley would be a bruising opponent on the pitch but always made the effort to seek out his opposite number to share a drink and chat with after the match. That is another iteration of what a proper rugby bloke is. It's a tradition under threat, if not almost extinct, in professional rugby...and one more example of what is worth preserving in our sport.

In the thread that slagged off Munster players it was mainly an issue of respect, solidarity and sportsmanship. As regards the point about the value of strong playing relationships within a squad I am thinking in terms of teamwork, solidarity and above all passion for each other - as well as the jersey, province, country - in what is an (all too) gladiatorial and attritional sport.

Very well written response, you are as entitled to your views on what this sport means to you. And indeed many might share these views and in the union definitions of what rugby stands for.

However, I cannot help but feel that with respect to the Boss or Toss thread you are missing one of the integral elements of our sport - the wicked sense of humour and sense of fun players have in teasing each other, if ever you've attended a dinner and speech led by a real rugby bloke you'll hear the most profound mocking, wicked wind ups, tales of escapades and kangaroo courts, forwards calling backs girls, backs shopping with the other girls.

This is as much a part of our game as any mission statement agreed by committee in a unions HQ over cigars and scotch, and it is what I, for one, love to see reflected on ours, and other rugby forums.

So have your opinion on what belongs on this board, but please do not presume to tell me how to enjoy reading, analysing and replying to other posters this site.

With respect to the "Band of Brothers" and "Real Rugby Blokes" getting it, I know LOADS of real rugby blokes and not one of us get why Leinster should be a Michael's past pupils team - even the Michael's boys there - and guess how we came to that conclusion - because it's real rugby blokes who sit, stand and stagger at our matches and we talk to each other about real rugby in a suitably real manner.


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[riocard911]

@ oldschoolsocks Hear! Hear! They should all be from Belvo!!!!!!!!

[goreyguy]

What school a player goes to should be irrelavent, it just happens that Michaels are the best school for producing high level rugby players

[Peg Leg]

Real rugby blokes use Tapatalk on iPhone

[Peg Leg]

Grand, don't want to have a tit for tat on this. But the point still stands albeit with a better catalogue of evidence, you will struggle to grow the game with an attitude that is based on grand values by folks who's rose tinted glasses have blocked out the all the craic they had before old age tinted their glasses. There is plenty of jocular behaviour not becoming of the "values" mentioned above and I don't think you can expect the fans to enjoy game if they can't participate emotionally in the events. The jokes are allowed to be enjoyed by people who weren't on the pitch.

I was merely going to reply with "Yeah, but Wales".

I wouldn't be using core values as a basis for any argument, the days of core values being anything other than something nice to aim for are well gone.

The Fox Nation is committed to the core principles of tolerance, open debate, civil discourse, and fair and balanced coverage of the news.

Global Compact
Since 2002, Volkswagen has been involved in one of the largest and most important CSR initiatives in the world – Global Compact.
The Ten Principles of

Human rights
Working standards
Environmental protection and
Combating corruption

form the core values of Global Compact.

So what's wrong with believing in better (Sky) or putting the hand up and saying "down with this sort of thing...in the name of Rugg-ah!"

Touche

[Oldschoolsocks]

@ oldschoolsocks Hear! Hear! They should all be from Belvo!!!!!!!!

Well with no highschoolers we do need someone to represent the cricketing community.

[paddyor]

You're the one who brought up "real" rugby blokes.

Oh, and having a clique at the heart of leinster cuts both ways as in they can be a losing formula too, which i think was Daves original point before you took offence and started the mickey waving.

Yes we had an elite clique in the Leinster dressing room and two in the Irish dressing room in those times which led to less success than our ability,in both teams, provided for. But I think they were part of our growing pains in the early professional era and that we leared to overcome them.

You are right, a close knit crew can work both ways. It depends on whether you think they are (a) good enough individually and (b) the coaches can use those learnings from a decade ago to make the most of the positives and weed out most/all of the negatives....kind of a glass half full or glass half empty question I guess.

As for the "real rugby blokes" remark I was and will continue to channel Martin Corry's sentiment. See my remarks above.

Some uppity anoraks on here trying too hard to be 'Rugby Mastermind'. Kelleher's talent and worth is obvious. If he is good enough for Joe...........

Meanwhile back at the ranch, most rugby people know a sure thing when they see one and don't need Stato-Man's approval. Leinster would love to be able to select him.

Just like Martin Corry! Frankly thats a fairly weak appeal to authority and I've found a common refrain among "real rugby blokes" when they're disagreed with / corrected. Stop trying to weasel out of it.

[Oldschoolsocks]

Real rugby blokes use Tapatalk on iPhone

Thx pegleg

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[riocard911]

@ oldschoolsocks Hear! Hear! They should all be from Belvo!!!!!!!!

Well with no highschoolers we do need someone to represent the cricketing community.

Touché! LOL!! Tá tú i dtrioblóid when Church gets to read that comment though!!!

[simonokeeffe]

@ oldschoolsocks Hear! Hear! They should all be from Belvo!!!!!!!!

Well with no highschoolers we do need someone to represent the cricketing community.

Have we ever had a High Schooler? Other than Dennis O'Brien paying Johnny's wages

JVDF represents the cricketing community, think Porter might too

[Oldschoolsocks]

@ oldschoolsocks Hear! Hear! They should all be from Belvo!!!!!!!!

Well with no highschoolers we do need someone to represent the cricketing community.

Touché! LOL!! Tá tú i dtrioblóid when Church gets to read that comment though!!!

You mean Séipéal isn't partial to a bit of organised sunbathing, better get the walking boots out so


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[Oldschoolsocks]

@ oldschoolsocks Hear! Hear! They should all be from Belvo!!!!!!!!

Well with no highschoolers we do need someone to represent the cricketing community.

Have we ever had a High Schooler? Other than Dennis O'Brien paying Johnny's wages

JVDF represents the cricketing community, think Porter might too

John Robbie maybe?


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[riocard911]

John Robbie was on - and may well have been captain of - the High School team, which beat Ollie Campbell's Belvo in the '73 Leinster Schools Senior Cup final, thereby preventing the latter from getting a three-in-row.

[simonokeeffe]

Low volume but high quality so

[OTT]

The late Ian Burns who was his half back partner in that team (only know from folklore bit before my team) and he played for Leinster and Ireland also.


EDIT: And really does tick the cricket box for you all as well

http://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-styl ... -1.1892589

[arsebiscuits1]

Wow this thread has spiraled into the very depths of pedantism.

If Michaels are so good how come they've only won the SCT twice?

If Kelleher is so good why hasn't he been capped for the ABs yet?

Personally I think I know more rugby chants and can down a pint faster than him. So I'm glad he's gone.

I wish Leinster were smarter about their academy players. There's young players like Molony, Ringrose, VDF, Carbery, Leavy, Conan, Tracy, L McGrath who no one has even HEARD of because Leinster WONT GIVE THEM ANY GAME TIME.

WHY IS LIFE SO UNFAIR!!!

I think I have sufficiently covered all of the arguments made.

Kelleher is gone. Whether he should have or not is irrelevant. Leinster have gradually improved their game bit by bit over the last 2 seasons. Maul has improved, lineout has improved, general ruck work has improved, center partnership has improved. Next on the list is back 3. I can feel it

[Oldschoolsocks]

The late Ian Burns who was his half back partner in that team (only know from folklore bit before my team) and he played for Leinster and Ireland also.


EDIT: And really does tick the cricket box for you all as well

http://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-styl ... -1.1892589

Nice sleuthing


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[RoboProp]

Real rugby blokes use Tapatalk on iPhone

Splitters! We're the blokes of real rugby, and we only use exploding Samsungs 7