How can the back three be improved in the short/long term?

[goreyguy]

Leinster rugby are going to need to be more flexible with their young talent otherwise they risk losing it to elsewhere, be that the other provinces or abroad.

Kelleher was the result of inflexibility and unwillingness to prioritise talent over experience.

You'd hope similar won't happen with other players in the academy.

[leinsterforever]

I think the loss of Kelleher will be felt in Leinster. We saw last year against Zebra the potential that he has and, as much as I don't like it, FairPlay to him for having the courage to go to Connacht. The Connacht back-three were by far the most impressive in the Pro 12 last season and he obviously fancied working and playing with them. He also backed himself to be in with a shout of starting. So far he's proved to everybody that he's an exceptional talented winger/ fb.

Adeleokun has said that Kelleher is faster than him over the first 20 metres, which is some going. He'd have been playing in Richmond this weekend if he was still at Leinster, instead he's starting against Toulouse and marking Yoann Huget!

Would he have been playing in Richmond? I think that's very much up for debate considering his form this season and Leinsters options on the wing. I'd much rather have him there than Kirchner.

I think I'd have him as Leinster's starting left winger but it's very possible that he wouldn't have got the gametime to show form if he was still here

[jezzer]

Kelleher wasn't any run of the mill Academy prospect. he was earmarked early as one of the stars coming through the schools system. So to lose him, especially when our depth and quality in that area is so poor, can only be a disappointment.

But if I'm Kelleher, would I want to learn 3/4 play under the Leinster setup (where, as a feeder club to the Joe XXIII, it's more about chasing garryowens and hitting rucks than running and scoring) or at Connacht, where they have a Hall Pass from Joeometry 1.0 and are/were being coached by some of the game's best guys to play what they see in front of them and to maximise their offensive potential?

Postcards to London W12 8QT.

[goreyguy]

I think the loss of Kelleher will be felt in Leinster. We saw last year against Zebra the potential that he has and, as much as I don't like it, FairPlay to him for having the courage to go to Connacht. The Connacht back-three were by far the most impressive in the Pro 12 last season and he obviously fancied working and playing with them. He also backed himself to be in with a shout of starting. So far he's proved to everybody that he's an exceptional talented winger/ fb.

Adeleokun has said that Kelleher is faster than him over the first 20 metres, which is some going. He'd have been playing in Richmond this weekend if he was still at Leinster, instead he's starting against Toulouse and marking Yoann Huget!

Would he have been playing in Richmond? I think that's very much up for debate considering his form this season and Leinsters options on the wing. I'd much rather have him there than Kirchner.

I think I'd have him as Leinster's starting left winger but it's very possible that he wouldn't have got the gametime to show form if he was still here

He would have given ROL started on the wing against Munster.

The problem is having two NIQ's that play on the wing, it meant at times when young wingers could be playing they usually weren't.

[leinsterforever]

Kelleher wasn't any run of the mill Academy prospect. he was earmarked early as one of the stars coming through the schools system. So to lose him, especially when our depth and quality in that area is so poor, can only be a disappointment.

But if I'm Kelleher, would I want to learn 3/4 play under the Leinster setup (where, as a feeder club to the Joe XXIII, it's more about chasing garryowens and hitting rucks than running and scoring) or at Connacht, where they have a Hall Pass from Joeometry 1.0 and are/were being coached by some of the game's best guys to play what they see in front of them and to maximise their offensive potential?

Postcards to London W12 8QT.

It's a no-brainer, and I don't think there's much doubt that he'll become a better player with Connacht

[paddyor]

Leinster rugby are going to need to be more flexible with their young talent otherwise they risk losing it to elsewhere, be that the other provinces or abroad.

Kelleher was the result of inflexibility and unwillingness to prioritise talent over experience.

You'd hope similar won't happen with other players in the academy.

No, he was mostly meh when he did get a few starts/cameos. Hammering Zebre during the 6N doesn't count for anything. Current form is not equal to past form.

[erskinechilders]

No, he was mostly meh when he did get a few starts/cameos. Hammering Zebre during the 6N doesn't count for anything. Current form is not equal to past form.

No it isn't but the world and its dog knew that he always had the potential that he is now showing regularly for Connacht. Leinster's shortsightedness in the back three is becoming a serious problem. Resigning Kirchner was a bad idea and it was compounded when we made the great idea of resigning Nacewa. Byrne has never cemented a place in the team, we've lost Conway to Munster. The last group of players to come through in the back-three were Dave Kearney, Ferg and Rob, which was almost 8 years ago!

[LeRouxIsPHat]

I'm going to wait a little while to pass judgement on Kelleher at this level. He never overly impressed me at A level when I saw him. Sure he looks great going forward, but he rarely comes in field looking for work and he always looked scared to death of anyone bigger than him. Those are things he can rectify easily enough but until I see evidence of him having done that then I'm not going to be too disappointed he's gone.

I shared those concerns but he's looked great in the last couple of games I've seen. Always thought he was a selfish player and had poor hands but there's an improvement there. At one stage on Saturday he made a break and didn't pass when it was on, but I definitely think he's showing signs of improvement on that front.

[goreyguy]

Leinster rugby are going to need to be more flexible with their young talent otherwise they risk losing it to elsewhere, be that the other provinces or abroad.

Kelleher was the result of inflexibility and unwillingness to prioritise talent over experience.

You'd hope similar won't happen with other players in the academy.

No, he was mostly meh when he did get a few starts/cameos. Hammering Zebre during the 6N doesn't count for anything. Current form is not equal to past form.

Talent is talent, he was by far the most talented back three player in the academy. He barely played last season for Leinster, 1 start. 2 senior appearances post November. 165 minutes total.

It was poor talent management by leinster, they can't expect talented players to just sit around not playing and be happy to stay at leinster.

Hopefully it doesn't happen in the future with anyone else, especially in a position where talent is needed.

[sunshiner1]

by paddyor » October 18th, 2016, 10:46 am

sunshiner1 wrote:
While I'd love to have Kelleher back I have to mention that is at least 2 season away IF he comes back. Talking to people out here he's loving life in Connacht a lot more than he ever did in Leinster.

Secondly while our back three haven't covered themselves in glory the last few seasons I think as this season progresses we will see a lot more dynamism in the back three. Unlike our last No. 12 Henshaw is actually a distributor and as him and Ringrose get more gametime together and get more simpatico I think we will see a lot more try's being scored by our back three as they make space for them.

Noel Reid doesn't pass?????

Okay.

I was talking about Ben Te'o not Reid.

[Oldschoolsocks]

While I'd love to have Kelleher back I have to mention that is at least 2 season away IF he comes back. Talking to people out here he's loving life in Connacht a lot more than he ever did in Leinster.

Secondly while our back three haven't covered themselves in glory the last few seasons I think as this season progresses we will see a lot more dynamism in the back three. Unlike our last No. 12 Henshaw is actually a distributor and as him and Ringrose get more gametime together and get more simpatico I think we will see a lot more try's being scored by our back three as they make space for them.

Noel Reid doesn't pass?????

Okay.

Ah, I see what you did there


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Ruckedtobits]

Some sense, some sh#*e when it comes to consideration of Kelleher.

Fact: Leinster didn't let him go. He was under Contract, which Leinster had offered to improve but, against the written protocol between Provinces, Connacht made a direct approach and Nucifora approved it.

Fact: The coaching he has received in Connacht suits his skill-set far better than the coaching offered him in Leinster, which is geared to suit their current Squad's needs.

Fact: The general Game Plan and specific match tactics in Connacht are almost tailored for Kelleher's skills. He has undoubtedly improved some of his weaknesses, and even his waistline has shrunk. But the biggest difference is his attitude which nows appears far more attuned to the needs of his team and teammates, which did not always appear an earlier hallmark, either in school or later. Getting game time isn't always the panacea it is made out to be (Conway?) but for some guys, it unlocks the devil and lets the sunshine in. He looks like one of those.

Possibly the reality is that he needed a changed environment and in this instance it has worked wonders. Good luck to him.

[Peg Leg]

I think I just got called a nerd

Personally I couldnt give a fupp which individual schools any Leinster players (or anyone at all really) went to but the more the better as it spreads the game and grows the fanbase

To go back to the thread too I'd like Kelleher back in 2018 too (if he'd fit in) given the age of our backline. Be nice of Connacht to help him along for two years for us when he couldnt get gametime here

Connacht aren't helping Kelleher out. They are utilising a quality player.

I think the growth of the game across the province is much more important than the accolades of any one school, including my alma mater. I am saying that having a core group of players in a squad that are from the same place can contribute to a winning culture which is the most powerful thing of all in growing the fanbase.

A good few more posts to read in this thread, but I have to respond here. This bullshit about " real rugby blokes" and the values you mention in another thread leave a heavy tang of elitist wankerism. I've never played a competitive game of rugby in my life but I've been a sth since 08 only missing the 1 season since. But I'm probably the type of riff raff you'd rather not have associated with the sport... good look growing the game with that attitude.

[Oldschoolsocks]

Didn't take long for Medinah to find a successor

[Ruckedtobits]

I think I just got called a nerd

Personally I couldnt give a fupp which individual schools any Leinster players (or anyone at all really) went to but the more the better as it spreads the game and grows the fanbase

To go back to the thread too I'd like Kelleher back in 2018 too (if he'd fit in) given the age of our backline. Be nice of Connacht to help him along for two years for us when he couldnt get gametime here

Connacht aren't helping Kelleher out. They are utilising a quality player.

I think the growth of the game across the province is much more important than the accolades of any one school, including my alma mater. I am saying that having a core group of players in a squad that are from the same place can contribute to a winning culture which is the most powerful thing of all in growing the fanbase.

A good few more posts to read in this thread, but I have to respond here. This bullshit about " real rugby blokes" and the values you mention in another thread leave a heavy tang of elitist wankerism. I've never played a competitive game of rugby in my life but I've been a sth since 08 only missing the 1 season since. But I'm probably the type of riff raff you'd rather not have associated with the sport... good look growing the game with that attitude.

+1
And a knowlegible commentator IMO!

[backrower8]

+1
And a knowlegible commentator IMO!

"knowledgeable"

[backrower8]

I am from Dublin, I went to school in a traditional big school up the road to yourself I have also watched Leinster evolve like yourself over the years and if anything has improved the culture and openness at Leinster it has not been the selection of loads of players from the traditional big schools. Sure it is often a necessity because a lot of the time the best talents go to these schools but the idea and identity of a 12 county team has definitely improved for the better because of guys like Shaggy and SOB breaking through from other areas.

I wanted Kelleher here because he looks like he could be brilliant (definitely not the finished article yet though), it should always be about his ability and not what school he or anyone else went to that should see them progress. It appears the point you are making is that people should be kept together because they went to the same school, that is absolute nonsense. The fact a lot of our talented guys went to Michael's is great and it makes you happy in every post but it is not what is important at all. We have 4 pro teams in Ireland there will always be a few leinster guys on an Ireland team whether it is good or not. There will be Munster guys and Ulster guys and now thankfully there looks like there will be Connacht guys regularly. That they might have went to school together and been best friends is not really anything to do with anything as long as we are getting the best guys into the academy initially and then turning them into good pros.

Picking a Leinster dominated backline and Munster dominated pack for Ireland was a necessity of that time, Gatty tried it at Wales with the Ospreys and that didnt work to well. If we have 4 teams contributing it will always be better then having 1 team massively over represented it means there is talent in lots of different places.

I hope Kelleher thrives at Connacht and if so hopefully we can get him back at some stage I would feel the same if he was from Meath, Wicklow, Carlow, Kildare or anywhere. Maybe you also think he should be at Leinster because of his talent and not mainly because he went to Michael's but your love of your alma mater is clouding your point somewhat.

I agree with almost everything you say here. The bits I don't are as a result of you misinterpreting me but that is because I have been too self-indulgent/boasting in referencing the Michael's stuff. They, and anyone else for that matter, should only be picked if they are the grade. I do however believe that it is a supplemental bonus if squads have a core of players that have played together for a long time. Most international teams in rugby draw from a small pool of teams. Leinster having something like 1 in 5 players on its books from one school is a freak on the one hand and a benefit on the other. I does influence games and selections at the margins...but it should never be policy.

In fact if you go through the squad you will see that the pareto effect of 20:80 or more applies. That trend will only continue as more and more players of note are sent to Rock, Roscrea, PBC, CBC, Belvo, Munchins, Garbally, RBAI etc because of their rugby heritage - unfortunatley so in my opinion. Education first.

The Horgans and Carberrys and O'Briens will always be in the minority and need to be provided for, identified and nurtured. And then when you find them their success needs to be promoted as a huge PR strength for growing the sport across the province and country both geographically and demographically.

But none of that will ever be more powerful than the populism that winning breeds and back to my original point. IF THEY ARE GOOD ENOUGH, having a cohort of players in the heart of Leinster match-day squads who have played together since they were 10 years of age would be a powerful inner dynamic in maintainng and building on the winning culture at Leinster that has been the main driver for the growth of the game in the province.

I bet if I was saying this about 12 guys from Navan rugby club there would be a different response.

Inverted snobbery from some perhaps?



In fact I am conflicted about St Michael's having so many pro-players,especially relative to their size, as I think it is evidence of a school over-emphasising one sport and more importantly, being too aligned to a professional business. At this rate Michael'sand a handful of other schools are sub-academies in their own right and I don't think that is a healthy thing. Some children can handle it and are destined for professional ranks...others are not and perhaps could do with spending their formative years in an environment where a little more light is let in to other areas.

Contradicting myself again, I know that Michael's actually offers a very rounded approach and lots of other activities but it is as close to a rugby nursery as you will find and that will only increase now that 2 of their 3 pirtches have just been converted to G4 astro pitches.

[paddyor]

I am from Dublin, I went to school in a traditional big school up the road to yourself I have also watched Leinster evolve like yourself over the years and if anything has improved the culture and openness at Leinster it has not been the selection of loads of players from the traditional big schools. Sure it is often a necessity because a lot of the time the best talents go to these schools but the idea and identity of a 12 county team has definitely improved for the better because of guys like Shaggy and SOB breaking through from other areas.

I wanted Kelleher here because he looks like he could be brilliant (definitely not the finished article yet though), it should always be about his ability and not what school he or anyone else went to that should see them progress. It appears the point you are making is that people should be kept together because they went to the same school, that is absolute nonsense. The fact a lot of our talented guys went to Michael's is great and it makes you happy in every post but it is not what is important at all. We have 4 pro teams in Ireland there will always be a few leinster guys on an Ireland team whether it is good or not. There will be Munster guys and Ulster guys and now thankfully there looks like there will be Connacht guys regularly. That they might have went to school together and been best friends is not really anything to do with anything as long as we are getting the best guys into the academy initially and then turning them into good pros.

Picking a Leinster dominated backline and Munster dominated pack for Ireland was a necessity of that time, Gatty tried it at Wales with the Ospreys and that didnt work to well. If we have 4 teams contributing it will always be better then having 1 team massively over represented it means there is talent in lots of different places.

I hope Kelleher thrives at Connacht and if so hopefully we can get him back at some stage I would feel the same if he was from Meath, Wicklow, Carlow, Kildare or anywhere. Maybe you also think he should be at Leinster because of his talent and not mainly because he went to Michael's but your love of your alma mater is clouding your point somewhat.

I agree with almost everything you say here. The bits I don't are as a result of you misinterpreting me but that is because I have been too self-indulgent/boasting in referencing the Michael's stuff. They, and anyone else for that matter, should only be picked if they are the grade. I do however believe that it is a supplemental bonus if squads have a core of players that have played together for a long time. Most international teams in rugby draw from a small pool of teams. Leinster having something like 1 in 5 players on its books from one school is a freak on the one hand and a benefit on the other. I does influence games and selections at the margins...but it should never be policy.

In fact if you go through the squad you will see that the pareto effect of 20:80 or more applies. That trend will only continue as more and more players of note are sent to Rock, Roscrea, PBC, CBC, Belvo, Munchins, Garbally, RBAI etc because of their rugby heritage - unfortunatley so in my opinion. Education first.

The Horgans and Carberrys and O'Briens will always be in the minority and need to be provided for, identified and nurtured. And then when you find them their success needs to be promoted as a huge PR strength for growing the sport across the province and country both geographically and demographically.

But none of that will ever be more powerful than the populism that winning breeds and back to my original point. IF THEY ARE GOOD ENOUGH, having a cohort of players in the heart of Leinster match-day squads who have played together since they were 10 years of age would be a powerful inner dynamic in maintainng and building on the winning culture at Leinster that has been the main driver for the growth of the game in the province.

I bet if I was saying this about 12 guys from Navan rugby club there would be a different response.

Inverted snobbery from some perhaps?



In fact I am conflicted about St Michael's having so many pro-players,especially relative to their size, as I think it is evidence of a school over-emphasising one sport and more importantly, being too aligned to a professional business. At this rate Michael'sand a handful of other schools are sub-academies in their own right and I don't think that is a healthy thing. Some children can handle it and are destined for professional ranks...others are not and perhaps could do with spending their formative years in an environment where a little more light is let in to other areas.

Contradicting myself again, I know that Michael's actually offers a very rounded approach and lots of other activities but it is as close to a rugby nursery as you will find and that will only increase now that 2 of their 3 pirtches have just been converted to G4 astro pitches.

You're the one who brought up "real" rugby blokes.

Oh, and having a clique at the heart of leinster cuts both ways as in they can be a losing formula too, which i think was Daves original point before you took offence and started the mickey waving.

[backrower8]

Connacht aren't helping Kelleher out. They are utilising a quality player.

I think the growth of the game across the province is much more important than the accolades of any one school, including my alma mater. I am saying that having a core group of players in a squad that are from the same place can contribute to a winning culture which is the most powerful thing of all in growing the fanbase.

A good few more posts to read in this thread, but I have to respond here. This bullshit about " real rugby blokes" and the values you mention in another thread leave a heavy tang of elitist wankerism. I've never played a competitive game of rugby in my life but I've been a sth since 08 only missing the 1 season since. But I'm probably the type of riff raff you'd rather not have associated with the sport... good look growing the game with that attitude.

In response to your references to "Bullshit"..."elitist wankerism"..."riff raff you'd rather not have associated with the sport"...

For the record, I don't believe you have to have played or have gone to a 'rugby school' to have standing or merit on this forum or in any other rugby-related environment. On reflection the only ask I have is that anyone who participates in the sport of rugby understands and upholds its values. Otherwise we could be any community talking about anything in any way we choose - rather than a rugby community that experiences and upholds rugby in all its forms.

(1) My reference to "real rugby blokes" is my way of calling out some of the forum "silverbacks" who snidely retort to sincere commentary. If they don't agree with me then fine. But respond with reasoned points of view in keeping with...

(2) The "values" of our game which I said weren't well represented by a particular thread. I made that remark based on what I feel and understand over a lifetime of involvement in the sport. But that's just my opinion. Before responding to you, I checked what the values of our sport officially are according to World Rugby's web-site and I got this:

In 2009 the World Rugby member unions identified integrity, passion, solidarity, discipline and respect as the defining character-building characteristics of rugby. These are now collectively known as the World Rugby values and are incorporated within the World Rugby Playing Charter, a guiding document aimed at preserving rugby’s unique character and ethos both on and off the field of play.  

The core values enable participants immediately to understand the character of the games and what makes it distinctive as a sport which is played by people of all shapes and sizes.

There is more detail here. http://www.worldrugby.org/welcome-to-ru ... es?lang=en

Personally I am very comfortable with those values although I think they are too focused on the players and should be refined to be inclusive of the volunteers and the fans. I do believe the players (not retired ones) are the most important, but not elitist, stakeholders in the game because their actions either reenforce or undermine the sport on a daily basis. To a lesser but still important extent, how we conduct ourselves on this forum either upholds or diminish those values and the sport we share.

Interestingly, other Unions have put their own spin on the values:

Ireland: Respect, Integrity, Inclusivity, Fun, Excellence

Scotland: Scottish Rugby's core values are respect, leadership, achievement, engagement and enjoyment.

England: Rugby’s values of Teamwork, Respect, Enjoyment, Discipline and Sportsmanship are what makes the game special for those who enjoy the environment and culture they create. They define the game and define England Rugby.

I am still comfortable with these variations and I wasn't comfortable with that thread because it didn't sit well with my sense of what the rugby community is about and I said so.

For me "real rugby blokes and women" are people who share and uphold these values. As I said, this is what I felt before I looked it up. I don't think it is a mantra that is being forced on us. These are the values that I recognise in my experience of the sport over many years. I am not saying my experience or its longevity is better than anyone else's but I am confident enough that I am aligned to the culture that, while always necessarily evolving, is the culture that was forged long before I was thought of and is worth upholding.

All of the 14 descriptors used by World Rugby and those 3 Unions sit well with me and if I use the phrase "real rugby people" again then you will know that is what I am alluding to.

I deliberately used the expression "real rugby blokes" because it resonated with me at the time or posting. It is close to the phrase that Martin Corry had used in a tweet to honour Anthony Foley on the day he died when he described how Foley would be a bruising opponent on the pitch but always made the effort to seek out his opposite number to share a drink and chat with after the match. That is another iteration of what a proper rugby bloke is. It's a tradition under threat, if not almost extinct, in professional rugby...and one more example of what is worth preserving in our sport.

In the thread that slagged off Munster players it was mainly an issue of respect, solidarity and sportsmanship. As regards the point about the value of strong playing relationships within a squad I am thinking in terms of teamwork, solidarity and above all passion for each other - as well as the jersey, province, country - in what is an (all too) gladiatorial and attritional sport.

[backrower8]

You're the one who brought up "real" rugby blokes.

Oh, and having a clique at the heart of leinster cuts both ways as in they can be a losing formula too, which i think was Daves original point before you took offence and started the mickey waving.

Yes we had an elite clique in the Leinster dressing room and two in the Irish dressing room in those times which led to less success than our ability,in both teams, provided for. But I think they were part of our growing pains in the early professional era and that we leared to overcome them.

You are right, a close knit crew can work both ways. It depends on whether you think they are (a) good enough individually and (b) the coaches can use those learnings from a decade ago to make the most of the positives and weed out most/all of the negatives....kind of a glass half full or glass half empty question I guess.

As for the "real rugby blokes" remark I was and will continue to channel Martin Corry's sentiment. See my remarks above.