Leinster A 2016-17

[cormac]

In my opinion it would be foolish to turn our noses up at Hagan given the circumstances. He's played Pro12, Premiership, Heineken Cup and Super Rugby, and picked up an Ireland cap. Let's see how he gets on in his second season at the Rebels, but with all the experience he has accumulated he could potentially be the best he's been after next season.

If we can locate a better option, and are allowed sign him, then all well and good, but Hagan could be the best available signing

Hagan is a busted flush.

[neiliog93]

Hagan isn't good enough.

Re. Moore, there was a fair bit of bad blood when he left and his Wasps deal runs to the end of the 2018-19 season. Best case scenario is he comes back after the 2019 RWC. We need someone in the meantime.

[hugonaut]

Wow, that's very emphatic. Wasn't a bad Ulster side on paper either.

Yeah, tight-head depth is an area of concern for us. Bent has proven beyond doubt he can't be trusted (as a tight-head) at Pro12 level and Ross has declined this season. After that we have Loughman and Heffernan, who I don't think are ready for Pro12 action against the league's better teams. When Ross goes next season, I wonder will we be allowed draft in a Peikrishvilli-type figure for a year to cover when Furlong is away/injured, and give time for Loughman and Heffernan to develop.

I have absolutely no problems seeing Bent's name down for the No3 jersey in the Pro12. I don't know why you think it has been "proven beyond doubt he can't be trusted (as a tight-head) at Pro12 level" – I'm not of that belief at all. In fact, I think it's an unfounded opinion to hold! The guy hasn't let us down at all in the last three seasons as far as I'm concerned. He's a low maintenance, diligent pro who has a lot of decent rugby left in him.

Personally speaking [and with apologies for repeating myself], I would like to see Porter pushed across to tighthead. It's much, much harder to find quality tightheads than it is to find quality looseheads – look at all the provincial squads – and Porter has the makings of a ferocious tighthead in terms of build, strength and aggression.

[simonokeeffe]

What sort of an account did Oisin Heffernan give of himself? 'Cos Mike Ross on today's showing v Munster looks like he's fast running out of steam.......

If you mean in scrums, when has he ever demolished (or been been demolished by) anyone? Not often at all

Hagan has had 3 chances, definition of madness to re sign him

Moore would come back in a heartbeat but e300k per year is a lot to buy out even if we still have Douglas money and we'd have to mismanage our finances for a decade to get IRFU to help

[artaneboy]

Wow, that's very emphatic. Wasn't a bad Ulster side on paper either.

Yeah, tight-head depth is an area of concern for us. Bent has proven beyond doubt he can't be trusted (as a tight-head) at Pro12 level and Ross has declined this season. After that we have Loughman and Heffernan, who I don't think are ready for Pro12 action against the league's better teams. When Ross goes next season, I wonder will we be allowed draft in a Peikrishvilli-type figure for a year to cover when Furlong is away/injured, and give time for Loughman and Heffernan to develop.

I have absolutely no problems seeing Bent's name down for the No3 jersey in the Pro12. I don't know why you think it has been "proven beyond doubt he can't be trusted (as a tight-head) at Pro12 level" – I'm not of that belief at all. In fact, I think it's an unfounded opinion to hold! The guy hasn't let us down at all in the last three seasons as far as I'm concerned. He's a low maintenance, diligent pro who has a lot of decent rugby left in him.

Personally speaking [and with apologies for repeating myself], I would like to see Porter pushed across to tighthead. It's much, much harder to find quality tightheads than it is to find quality looseheads – look at all the provincial squads – and Porter has the makings of a ferocious tighthead in terms of build, strength and aggression.

Totally agree on Bent. Why some posters are so down on his invariably decent performances at TH is a mystery. Like all props he can have his ropey moments, but when there is such a moment with Bent there's a rush to bury him forever. Still a hangover from his over-hyped arrival, but very unfair. Even in the worst case scenario he's proven much more reliable than Hagan.


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[neiliog93]

Bent got absolutely mashed at tight-head vs Cardiff, and he consistently concedes yards/scrum penalties on the tight-head.

Very handy squad player as a LOOSEHEAD. Not a tight-head.

[artaneboy]

Bent got absolutely mashed at tight-head vs Cardiff, and he consistently concedes yards/scrum penalties on the tight-head.

Very handy squad player as a LOOSEHEAD. Not a tight-head.

You see, I have to say that this is a case in point of that tendency to condemn based on selective evidence. There were certainly a couple of bad scrums versus Cardiff- mostly attributal to illegal (non-binding and boring-in, etc.) scrummaging by Gethin Jenkins and co- and a really cr@p reffing display. The whole front row got done there- not just Bent, although I accept that TH tends to get the blame in such circumstances.

But there are plenty of matches where Bent has played at TH in a more than adequate- and often very good manner. But those performances are just banked without much comment and play little part in any analysis of the cries that he can't play TH. I suggest we know he can to a 'good job' there; the videos show that is the case- and that's all we are are requesting. Furlong and Ross- I don't accept he's significantly diminished as a tight head, are the front liners- Bent is the back-up and he can do that job better than any realistic alternative.

[neiliog93]

Yeah but against Cardiff the scrum was fine until Bent came on.

[COYBIB]

I'd take Hagan over Bent in a heartbeat. Similar versatility and age profile too.

Hagan is a good third choice tighthead to have, Bent isn't, but we need someone interchangable with Furlong, that someone was Moore, but that ship has sailed, so we'll have to make do.

Whatever happened with Moore, it was a serious fu*k up though. Much like Healy and McGrath on the other side, we had two superb tightheads coming through and naturally enough, lose one of them.

Should Porter be given a season at tighthead with the A team to see if he can be converted? We kind of half arsed it with McGrath and it didn't work, but we have too much depth at loose head, if that's possible, and need to produce something at tighthead again now.

[wixfjord]

Some serious kneejerkism on here about Bent after Cardiff.
Could just as easily point to games in which he's played TH and done really well. For eg he held his own at TH against a monster Castres scrum a few seasons ago.
The guy is a brilliant squad player. Probably on peanuts, can play LH well and TH to a passable level.
Hopefully Loughman/Heffernan will come through, but as for bringing back Jamie Hagan, are people actually suggesting that?!

[leinsterforever]

Is it realistic to talk about Porter switching sides, considering he sometimes comes under pressure in the scrum as a loosehead?

[artaneboy]

Yeah but against Cardiff the scrum was fine until Bent came on.

One third correct; it was fine until the front row as a whole changed. But forget for a minute that the Cardiff front row saw that they could get away with illegality and went for it big time; let's look at what the changes meant. Treacy and Bent both came on at the same time early in the second half- and then Dooley replaced McGrath a while later. Whatever their great potential and other skills, I think we can agree that in terms of bulk and scrummaging experience and ability both Treacy and Dooley are not at the standard of Cronin and Jack. Michael is not as good as Tadgh either- but to condemn Bent as useless as a third choice TH because he was part of a front row that gave a couple of penalties away in a weakened unit- against a very cute, experienced (and fairly desperate) Cardiff front row, and disregard the contrary evidence where he has played very well is just not fair.

[neiliog93]

Yeah but against Cardiff the scrum was fine until Bent came on.

One third correct; it was fine until the front row as a whole changed. But forget for a minute that the Cardiff front row saw that they could get away with illegality and went for it big time; let's look at what the changes meant. Treacy and Bent both came on at the same time early in the second half- and then Dooley replaced McGrath a while later. Whatever their great potential and other skills, I think we can agree that in terms of bulk and scrummaging experience and ability both Treacy and Dooley are not at the standard of Cronin and Jack. Michael is not as good as Tadgh either- but to condemn Bent as useless as a third choice TH because he was part of a front row that gave a couple of penalties away in a weakened unit- against a very cute, experienced (and fairly desperate) Cardiff front row, and disregard the contrary evidence where he has played very well is just not fair.

Tracy is probably a better scrummager than Cronin, whose scrummaging has always been his achilles' heel. Also Tracy is a converted prop, who are more important in any scrum than the hookers, and so scrummaging if anything is the major strength of his game. Ergo we can blame Bent.

In any case, if a scrum goes wrong, more culpability lies with the props than with the hooker, as the props are more important in the scrummaging effort. As an ex-front rower, if you dispute that, we're just going to have to agree to disagree because I know I'm right on that one.

[wixfjord]

Yeah but against Cardiff the scrum was fine until Bent came on.

One third correct; it was fine until the front row as a whole changed. But forget for a minute that the Cardiff front row saw that they could get away with illegality and went for it big time; let's look at what the changes meant. Treacy and Bent both came on at the same time early in the second half- and then Dooley replaced McGrath a while later. Whatever their great potential and other skills, I think we can agree that in terms of bulk and scrummaging experience and ability both Treacy and Dooley are not at the standard of Cronin and Jack. Michael is not as good as Tadgh either- but to condemn Bent as useless as a third choice TH because he was part of a front row that gave a couple of penalties away in a weakened unit- against a very cute, experienced (and fairly desperate) Cardiff front row, and disregard the contrary evidence where he has played very well is just not fair.

Wrong way around I think? Didn't JT start and Cronin come on. Seem to remember Cronin popping up a lot under pressure.

[simonokeeffe]

To cut Bent some slack hes played very little TH the past two seasons and not even much at all last year

[neiliog93]

To cut Bent some slack hes played very little TH the past two seasons and not even much at all last year

True, and I think that's because the coaches themselves recognise that picking him there is something of a last resort.

[artaneboy]

Yeah but against Cardiff the scrum was fine until Bent came on.

One third correct; it was fine until the front row as a whole changed. But forget for a minute that the Cardiff front row saw that they could get away with illegality and went for it big time; let's look at what the changes meant. Treacy and Bent both came on at the same time early in the second half- and then Dooley replaced McGrath a while later. Whatever their great potential and other skills, I think we can agree that in terms of bulk and scrummaging experience and ability both Treacy and Dooley are not at the standard of Cronin and Jack. Michael is not as good as Tadgh either- but to condemn Bent as useless as a third choice TH because he was part of a front row that gave a couple of penalties away in a weakened unit- against a very cute, experienced (and fairly desperate) Cardiff front row, and disregard the contrary evidence where he has played very well is just not fair.

Wrong way around I think? Didn't JT start and Cronin come on. Seem to remember Cronin popping up a lot under pressure.

You're right. Poor memory- checked the match report there- 50 minutes Cronin came on for Treacy and Bent for Ross (not Tadgh), so that's embarrassing.

On the other hand it allows me to argue with Neilog taking his ground on the relative strength in the scrum of Conin and Treacy!

But the point is- one poor performance, whethever the mitigating factors are accepted or not- is not a good smple to declare the man a bad option- particularly as we know he has done a very good job previously.

[simonokeeffe]

To cut Bent some slack hes played very little TH the past two seasons and not even much at all last year

True, and I think that's because the coaches themselves recognise that picking him there is something of a last resort.

Wouldnt phrase it like that
He was converted to LH but we're lush in that position. However we unexpectedly lost Marty Moore and now Bent is our 3rd best TH

[Oldschool]

Wow, that's very emphatic. Wasn't a bad Ulster side on paper either.

Yeah, tight-head depth is an area of concern for us. Bent has proven beyond doubt he can't be trusted (as a tight-head) at Pro12 level and Ross has declined this season. After that we have Loughman and Heffernan, who I don't think are ready for Pro12 action against the league's better teams. When Ross goes next season, I wonder will we be allowed draft in a Peikrishvilli-type figure for a year to cover when Furlong is away/injured, and give time for Loughman and Heffernan to develop.

I have absolutely no problems seeing Bent's name down for the No3 jersey in the Pro12. I don't know why you think it has been "proven beyond doubt he can't be trusted (as a tight-head) at Pro12 level" – I'm not of that belief at all. In fact, I think it's an unfounded opinion to hold! The guy hasn't let us down at all in the last three seasons as far as I'm concerned. He's a low maintenance, diligent pro who has a lot of decent rugby left in him.

Personally speaking [and with apologies for repeating myself], I would like to see Porter pushed across to tighthead. It's much, much harder to find quality tightheads than it is to find quality looseheads – look at all the provincial squads – and Porter has the makings of a ferocious tighthead in terms of build, strength and aggression.

Totally agree on Bent. Why some posters are so down on his invariably decent performances at TH is a mystery. Like all props he can have his ropey moments, but when there is such a moment with Bent there's a rush to bury him forever. Still a hangover from his over-hyped arrival, but very unfair. Even in the worst case scenario he's proven much more reliable than Hagan.


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The BA attitude towards Bent is a form of Lenihanitus.
A blow in getting capped. How dare they - roll on the rubbish.

[neiliog93]

If anything this new info strengthens my argument as the scrum actually weakened when Cronin came on for Tracy.