In defence of Dave Kearney and Fergus McFadden

[leinsterforever]

Dave Kearney and Fergus McFadden cop a lot of flak, and I don't think it's justified.

Usually it's for not being as elusive as Craig Gilroy, but I've even read one comment somewhere saying that they're only "AIL standard". Granted, McFadden's ability to evade people leaves a lot to be desired, but comparing them to Gilroy and Matt Healy is a bit unfair. Kearney and McFadden are physical wingers, more in the mould of Bowe or Trimble. There's a lot there for coaches to work with. They're both good in the air, and DK is good at busting tackles. Defensively, they're sound, with McFadden being especially strong in the tackle. Throw McFadden's goal-kicking and versatility into the mix, and you're looking at some pretty valuable assets. On top of all this, it's pretty evident that they're very driven and committed, which shouldn't be taken for granted. I, for one, am delighted to have them on board.

I think Leinster would be extremely well-set if they had these two competing for the right wing slot, and had someone who brought something a bit different, i.e. dangerous broken-field running ability and ability to slickly stand people up, on the other wing.

[simonokeeffe]

said this before but essentially I think theyre good systems players, not the most imaginative or gifted footballers, but good athletes and under Joe they learnt off the highly detailed plans and performed their roles well but have been suffering/not at their best in more laissex faire gameplans

[Fireworks]

Not sure they need defending. Both are valuable guys who can do a job at international level. As you said they may not be twinkle toes but successful wings come in different packages. I think DK is the better of the two but Fergus is the the guy you want to be in the trenches with. I would see DK fighting for a starting spot in our strongest 23 with Fergus filling the 23 shirt.

I think that negativity about them came from non Leinster sources some of whom post here rather than from Leinster fans but the drip drip negativity lodges in your brain.

[wetherbydave]

Do people not remember the time when Fergus chip the on rushing defenders, chased and caught his own kick and then immediately did the same again. Piece of real class if you ask me.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

Do people not remember the time when Fergus chip the on rushing defenders, chased and caught his own kick and then immediately did the same again. Piece of real class if you ask me.

I think his problem is that he doesn't have the pace to do that anymore so has gone all out on the physical side of things instead, which has led to a lot of injuries and some stupid decisions. That's why I think he should move back to centre now.

DK's form was very poor after the Argentina game.

Two good players who had poor seasons, fingers crossed they can get back to form because we're very short in the outside backs.

[Fan with smartphone]

The grief McFadden gets particularly annoys me. There was mild uproar when he got selected for Ireland to play against Italy last year from the bench. He played 3 different positions in that game on and off and did well. End result? People still giving out. Now, I know that's Italy but McFadden has played everywhere in the backline from 10 to 15 for Ireland. He got his international debut as a 10 in the Churchill cup in a galaxy far far away and I think was player of that tournament. As you say he kicks goals and his record I would imagine is good. I always thought he was really a centre but when he got frustrated moving around the backline he asked Schmidt to be considered for just one position and wing it was. He is a good finisher and hits like a train, so it works well, though I do admit to wanting to see a return to him playing more than one position. This man is a weapon that any team would want in their backline.

With dave Kearney, he just needs an injury free pre-season to get himself together and get some confidence back. The stat about beating the most defenders in the 6nations a few years ago is oft repeated but it does show that he is a good attacker, to me he just hasn't had a fair shake injury-wise since then. He likes to cut in from the wing defensively. It won a 6 nations and that is too quickly forgotten, but when he wasn't as sharp against Argentina he had a poor outing. It happens to everyone. Like I say, a good pre-season and some confidence back and that's a top class winger on the books right there.

I think this is a good topic you've brought up and should be addressed. The expectation of "big signings to excite the fans" has got a bit mad. Like what players out there are "good enough for Leinster?" The springbok fullback was signed and he is meh. Someone like James Lowe is not good enough for Leinster. Niall Morris' welcome was at best lukewarm. Time was pilgrim, a winger from Leicester with European experience was a good signing. Maybe Rihad Mahrez would excite people, I dunno. I am surprised just how Ulster pulled off the coup of signing Piatau. But they pay him around half a million not euros. It really makes me question are they paying their home-grown backs as much as they should? I wonder what those guys are on. I know a lot of the grief comes from other fans of other provinces in relation to international stuff, but my bottom line is that leinster fans and Irish supporters in general need to get behind these lads who are giving it everything they can and are bloody good players. I'd accept kirchner could maybe give a bit closer to everything, but McFadden and Dave Kearney's effort need a bit of support.

Leinster do have a problem with depth right now. Hardly surprising. In recent seasons they've lost: boss, reddan, madigan, darcy, o'malley, Fitzgerald. I don't think I'm missing anyone else? They were silly in investing too much time and money in tiquiri and I'd also argue gopperth. Bizarrely Matt O'Connor wanted to invest more in tiquiri. Gopperth has done well at wasps, maybe I'm wrong about him but time will tell. They will need young fellas to step out of their comfort zones to fill the squad gaps. Maybe that's no bad thing. We will get a good indication on the value of the 7s project this year too. Hopefully it will help Daly to hit the ground running and I'd be keeping an eye on Goggin and Wooton in Munster too.

[Logorrhea]

Not sure they need defending.

+1

I've no problem when either of them are selected for Leinster. When they are selected for Ireland ahead of others its because they are better system players.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

That James Lowe comment is going to need further explanation please!

[Oldschoolsocks]

Dunno whether Dave K and Ferg really require this defence. They are both pretty strong reliable journeymen pros. They each do have strengths and have served Leinster and Ireland well. But it does need to be recognised that they will never be another shaggy or Denis Hickey, and they are ultimately the types of winger I pay to see.

[leinsterforever]

Leinster should be able to get one of Rob Kearney, Kirchner or Nacewa to play well at 15, so that position should be sorted for next season. If Kirchner and Nacewa are out of the picture after next season, I wonder whether Niall Morris would be looked at at full-back? I was looking on the Leicester forum, and some posters there seemed to view him primarily as a 15, so maybe he played mostly there for them. Suppose he'll have to earn a permanent deal first and foremost.

What we're lacking, then, is a winger who can create something out of nothing. I'm really not a fan of Nacewa on the wing anymore. He's not nearly as good a winger as he is a 15 in my opinion. Rory Scholes would have been a perfect signing. I reckon he's gonna be big

[curates_egg]

Dunno whether Dave K and Ferg really require this defence. They are both pretty strong reliable journeymen pros. They each do have strengths and have served Leinster and Ireland well. But it does need to be recognised that they will never be another shaggy or Denis Hickey, and they are ultimately the types of winger I pay to see.

By definition, neither is a journey man.

[wixfjord]

That James Lowe comment is going to need further explanation please!

This.
Where did that come out of?

Also, are we still carping on about Gopperth?! The guy has proven that he's a good player, yet ironically in a post about giving good players undue flack, you've done just that!

[Fan with smartphone]

That James Lowe comment is going to need further explanation please!

This.
Where did that come out of?

Also, are we still carping on about Gopperth?! The guy has proven that he's a good player, yet ironically in a post about giving good players undue flack, you've done just that!

Yeah that's a fair point on Gopperth, he wasn't for me, but is doing well at wasps. No rumour for you I'm afraid on Lowe. Just as part of the discussions on who they should be looking to sign and his name came up. The vibe I got was that he wouldn't be good enough. It left me thinking who would be good enough to satisfy? Ben Smith? I realise people want the absolute best for their team, but there is quality already there. Back it.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

Ah I see.

Anyone who thinks James Lowe wouldn't be good enough for us isn't good enough to be a human being.

[Fan with smartphone]

That's slightly more harsh than I was on Jimmy Gopperth there LRIP!

It seems to me that there clearly is a case for a defence of these guys as leinster forever has started here. Even the most dyed in the wool leinster supporters who are backing them here (on a leinster supporters website no less) are saying: good journeymen pros when they are one team men, I pay to see shaggy or hickie which to me implies you don't pay to see these guys (maybe that's an incorrect assumption by me), they are good systems players and I have to ask what does that mean?! Hard work and playing to the gameplan are not things bad players do in order to compensate for being not that good. They are part of being good players and that is absolutely what these guys are. No caveats or back handed compliments, they are really good players who could be doing with a bit of appreciation and dare I say it, respect. Who knows what that might do to their confidence, eh? Maybe I've gone a bit nuclear on it in that first post I have to admit. I can get carried away and it's not really aimed at anyone here who will have walked the walk as supporters for many years, but the point largely does stand, it's a dangerous way to treat such important and good players. I think fireworks is right that the negativity does lodge in the brain a bit. It's apparent that joe Schmidt hasn't felt the same way and he seems to have a reasonable knack of being proven right. Snap out of it folks!

[wixfjord]

That James Lowe comment is going to need further explanation please!

This.
Where did that come out of?

Also, are we still carping on about Gopperth?! The guy has proven that he's a good player, yet ironically in a post about giving good players undue flack, you've done just that!

Yeah that's a fair point on Gopperth, he wasn't for me, but is doing well at wasps. No rumour for you I'm afraid on Lowe. Just as part of the discussions on who they should be looking to sign and his name came up. The vibe I got was that he wouldn't be good enough. It left me thinking who would be good enough to satisfy? Ben Smith? I realise people want the absolute best for their team, but there is quality already there. Back it.

Actually, as far as I remember, there was one post from me, and it was making fun of the idea that Luke Morohan and James Lowe were 'quality NIQs'.
Not that 'he wouldn't be good enough'. He'd be a cracking addition.

[Oldschoolsocks]

Dunno whether Dave K and Ferg really require this defence. They are both pretty strong reliable journeymen pros. They each do have strengths and have served Leinster and Ireland well. But it does need to be recognised that they will never be another shaggy or Denis Hickey, and they are ultimately the types of winger I pay to see.

By definition, neither is a journey man.

Here's the definition I used "a worker or sports player who is reliable but not outstanding."

what's yours?

[curates_egg]

Dunno whether Dave K and Ferg really require this defence. They are both pretty strong reliable journeymen pros. They each do have strengths and have served Leinster and Ireland well. But it does need to be recognised that they will never be another shaggy or Denis Hickey, and they are ultimately the types of winger I pay to see.

By definition, neither is a journey man.

Here's the definition I used "a worker or sports player who is reliable but not outstanding."

what's yours?

I don't have one personally. In sports parlance, as I've heard it used, it's used to refer to players who move clubs regularly over the course of their careers.
As far as I know, it derives from trades in which traditionally tradesmen journeyed around as part of their apprenticeship years, picking up what work they could get. There is still a tradition among tradesmen in some Central European countries that reflects that...and they often dress up in medieval garb to do so. In Germany, you can often see them in public places (they'll usually have a big floppy hat, a stick and historical clothes).

[Dave Cahill]

Actually, Journeymen had 'walked the tables' and were no longer apprentices. They were fully qualified in their trade, but hadn't built up the experience or reputation to be considered Masters. The word Journey has nothing to do with travel, rather they were paid a daily rate as opposed to a salary like a Master Craftsman.

[curates_egg]

Here's an article on the concept including a photo of the silly garb:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Journeyman_years
It definitely has to do with travel. I know that for a fact.
I've a German carpenter friend who did it. I thought it was part of her apprenticeship but it could have been at the end.

Either way, neither Dave nor Ferg fit that definition; their blood is bluer than the Danube is or ever was.