New Bath head coach Tabai Matson was approached by Leinster

[arsebiscuits1]

Where would he have fit in here? I can't imagine he was offered a DOR type role or he might have accepted it.

Perhaps we are actively searching out a skills coach after all

http://www.planetrugby.com/news/i-could ... on-matson/

[Dave Cahill]

Where would he have fit in here? I can't imagine he was offered a DOR type role or he might have accepted it.

Perhaps we are actively searching out a skills coach after all

http://www.planetrugby.com/news/i-could ... on-matson/

I'd hope so, even Hugonauts favourite chubby narcissist was wittering on about Dave Ellis in the paper today, and for him to notice the existence of someone who isn't Cian Kelleher...

[Pendragon]

I sometimes worry for Leo. If this is true (which I assume it is) along with bringing Henry in for a short period of time..... do the powers that be really think that he is good enough for the job?

[cwebber82]

I sometimes worry for Leo. If this is true (which I assume it is) along with bringing Henry in for a short period of time..... do the powers that be really think that he is good enough for the job?

In short, no.

Leo should never have been made forwards coach in 2014. Leo being appointed head coach in 2015 was nonsense.

The IRFU will say all the right things publicly about Leo but unless there is clear progression in the 2016/17 season then Leo is heading the same way as Anthony Foley.

[Flash Gordon]

I sometimes worry for Leo. If this is true (which I assume it is) along with bringing Henry in for a short period of time..... do the powers that be really think that he is good enough for the job?

In short, no.

Leo should never have been made forwards coach in 2014. Leo being appointed head coach in 2015 was nonsense.

The IRFU will say all the right things publicly about Leo but unless there is clear progression in the 2016/17 season then Leo is heading the same way as Anthony Foley.

The "progression through the ranks" model has not been a success - Foley, McCall, Leo (thus far). Not really surprising, you wouldn't make a graduate CEO of a big company, it takes years of experience to learn both the technical and human side of the business and starting with a club who's ambition is to win the European Cup is not the way to go - interestingly, Henry said this when interviewed here. Probably the same with some of our other coaches too - Girv for example - it's one thing to be able to break down the defensive systems of the Ealing Trailfinders but that's not the same as trying to score against the likes of Toulon and Wasps (which we saw last season).

One thing I would say is, that for an inexperienced coach with clear gaps in his capability, looking for outside assistance, support and experience is not a sign of weakness, rather the opposite. Understanding vulnerabilities is a great quality to have in management and coaching as it is with a player. So as a player, if you have an issue with, say, distribution, you go to the coach and use acceptance of that as a "work on"and you fix it.

Leo learning from the likes of Henry is a good thing and it looks like both Leo and Leinster are adopting a mature and sensible attitude to these interventions.

[goreyguy]

Realisitically Leo shouldn't be head coach, but he is due to a poor hire in MOC and Leinster not being able to attract a suitable candidate pre world cup.

How much improvement in the coaching staff can Henry really bring in 2 weeks? Hope it's a lot.

[Logorrhea]

I think they are doing well to be honest. I don't mind promotion from within. If we were to do it with anyone it would have been Leo and himself and Girv have certainly improved things since MOC headed off. Given the squad they have had to play with I've been really happy with the return so far.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

I think they are doing well to be honest. I don't mind promotion from within. If we were to do it with anyone it would have been Leo and himself and Girv have certainly improved things since MOC headed off. Given the squad they have had to play with I've been really happy with the return so far.

Was just thinking something similar. It hasn't been perfect (and I personally think that the playing personnel is a bigger issue than anything else) but there seems to be a growing sense that Leo and Girv have been a disaster and it's not really based on a whole lot. Don't get me wrong, whilst I don't share the concerns of others I can see why they have them, but I'm talking about things like this story or Graham Henry coming on board. Those stories seem to be making people think of last season being worse than it was and as another stick to beat Leo with, doesn't make sense to me.

I'm sure some people will take that the wrong way but what I just mean is that people have gone from being slightly concerned last season, to hearing these stores and dreading the idea of Leo still being in charge. I'm not just talking about people on here btw.

[Dave Cahill]

I think stories like this reflect positively on Leo. If the opportunity arose, never mind Leo, I'd want Joe Schmidt to take two weeks with Graham Henry and he's an experienced relatively successful coach, so for Leo to go and seek out that opportunity shows only shows how progressive and eager to improve he is.

The Tabai Matson thing is something and nothing - reading the story its pretty clear that he wanted to be a head coach, which is what Bath were offering. Personally I'm glad that Leinster would be looking to hire another coach into the 'boot room', particularly one from outside the Leinster DNA pool, as it were

[cormac]

The "progression through the ranks" model has not been a success - Foley, McCall, Leo (thus far). Not really surprising, you wouldn't make a graduate CEO of a big company, it takes years of experience to learn both the technical and human side of the business and starting with a club who's ambition is to win the European Cup is not the way to go - interestingly, Henry said this when interviewed here. Probably the same with some of our other coaches too - Girv for example - it's one thing to be able to break down the defensive systems of the Ealing Trailfinders but that's not the same as trying to score against the likes of Toulon and Wasps (which we saw last season).

One thing I would say is, that for an inexperienced coach with clear gaps in his capability, looking for outside assistance, support and experience is not a sign of weakness, rather the opposite. Understanding vulnerabilities is a great quality to have in management and coaching as it is with a player. So as a player, if you have an issue with, say, distribution, you go to the coach and use acceptance of that as a "work on"and you fix it.

Leo learning from the likes of Henry is a good thing and it looks like both Leo and Leinster are adopting a mature and sensible attitude to these interventions.

Think the analogy you're looking for with regard to Leo's early promotion is more like making the shop steward CEO, rather than making a graduate CEO. After all he'd been with Leinster for 13 seasons (and 2 at Leicester) with six seasons as club captain.

[Flash Gordon]

I think they are doing well to be honest. I don't mind promotion from within. If we were to do it with anyone it would have been Leo and himself and Girv have certainly improved things since MOC headed off. Given the squad they have had to play with I've been really happy with the return so far.

Was just thinking something similar. It hasn't been perfect (and I personally think that the playing personnel is a bigger issue than anything else) but there seems to be a growing sense that Leo and Girv have been a disaster and it's not really based on a whole lot. Don't get me wrong, whilst I don't share the concerns of others I can see why they have them, but I'm talking about things like this story or Graham Henry coming on board. Those stories seem to be making people think of last season being worse than it was and as another stick to beat Leo with, doesn't make sense to me.

I'm sure some people will take that the wrong way but what I just mean is that people have gone from being slightly concerned last season, to hearing these stores and dreading the idea of Leo still being in charge. I'm not just talking about people on here btw.

There is no question in my mind that the story of Leo and Girv's coaching thus far has not been positive. I'm a bit baffled by the conclusion that things have improved since MOC left - under MOC (and I wasn't a fan by the way) we got to a European semi final which we probably got close enough to win. Last year we were humiliated in the pool stages scoring less tries than any other team in the competition. I'm not calling for the coaching staff to be fired but to improve you've got to be honest and our attack was pretty much impotent.

Like I said, asking for help and looking to improve is a positive from this coaching ticket and from Leinster but we need to start from a position of realism and be honest about our weaknesses.

[simonokeeffe]

Do we know what job title he was offered (and what that would have meant for the other coaches)?

[Logorrhea]

Do we know what job title he was offered (and what that would have meant for the other coaches)?

No but we should work on the assumption that it undermines Leo right from the off and that any attempt to hire additional coaches is just a reflection of how bad Leo is and how doomed we are as a team.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

There is no question in my mind that the story of Leo and Girv's coaching thus far has not been positive. I'm a bit baffled by the conclusion that things have improved since MOC left - under MOC (and I wasn't a fan by the way) we got to a European semi final which we probably got close enough to win. Last year we were humiliated in the pool stages scoring less tries than any other team in the competition. I'm not calling for the coaching staff to be fired but to improve you've got to be honest and our attack was pretty much impotent.

Like I said, asking for help and looking to improve is a positive from this coaching ticket and from Leinster but we need to start from a position of realism and be honest about our weaknesses.

Please reread what I said again. I wasn't saying we don't have issues, I was saying that the more time that passes (without even playing games) and the more stories like this appear, the worse the perception of our coaches seems to get.

So have all the concerns you want, but don't think that a story like this indicates that we're up sh!t creek.

[Flash Gordon]

There is no question in my mind that the story of Leo and Girv's coaching thus far has not been positive. I'm a bit baffled by the conclusion that things have improved since MOC left - under MOC (and I wasn't a fan by the way) we got to a European semi final which we probably got close enough to win. Last year we were humiliated in the pool stages scoring less tries than any other team in the competition. I'm not calling for the coaching staff to be fired but to improve you've got to be honest and our attack was pretty much impotent.

Like I said, asking for help and looking to improve is a positive from this coaching ticket and from Leinster but we need to start from a position of realism and be honest about our weaknesses.

Please reread what I said again. I wasn't saying we don't have issues, I was saying that the more time that passes (without even playing games) and the more stories like this appear, the worse the perception of our coaches seems to get.

So have all the concerns you want, but don't think that a story like this indicates that we're up sh!t creek.

I think the other dude said that things had improved and that Leo and Girv were doing a good job - and as far as I can see you said hat you were just "thinking the same". The two lads are learning on the job and the delivery thus far hasn't been anything like good enough.

I never said that a story like this indicates that we were up sh!t's creek, I actually said the opposite! It shows positivity, maturity and a willingness to learn/improve. Ultimately, our coaches are judged on results which didn't happen last year. Let's see what happens this year!

[LeRouxIsPHat]

Again you've taken me up wrong. I said I was thinking "something similar" and have explained it pretty clearly. My point was that the concerns have been growing recently but there's been no real reason for that to have happened. As I said, have concerns about the coaches if you want (I acknowledged that we haven't been perfect and if you look back at my posts you'll see I had plenty of criticism for the coaches) but I can't understand why the concerns have been increasing RECENTLY.

[curates_egg]

Reassuring to read something like this, as otherwise you would get the impression we weren't even looking, despite the glaring need. Here's to hoping there is an announcement around the corner.
It is hard to fathom that the other (less successful/more precarious) provinces have been allowed to and able to sign the calibre of players and coaches they have, whereas we are lumbering away with Leo and Girve a net decrease in impact player recruitment.

I'm kind of with LRIP: I think Leo and Girve were a bad hire but think they did ok in the context of last season (injuries, world cup, learning on the job). I found our performance against Connacht to be worrying though, so that would have increased my concerns recently. However, regardless of whether my concerns are increasing or not, I still think we need a better management team. I don't see any contradiction in saying both that and that Leo did ok in the circumstances (and based on low expectations). Our attack went to sh!t under MOC and it stayed to sh!t under Leo. This needs to be addressed regardless of whether Leo is there or not.

[simonokeeffe]

Reassuring to read something like this, as otherwise you would get the impression we weren't even looking, despite the glaring need. Here's to hoping there is an announcement around the corner.
It is hard to fathom that the other (less successful/more precarious) provinces have been allowed to and able to sign the calibre of players and coaches they have, whereas we are lumbering away with Leo and Girve a net decrease in impact player recruitment.

I'm kind of with LRIP: I think Leo and Girve were a bad hire but think they did ok in the context of last season (injuries, world cup, learning on the job). I found our performance against Connacht to be worrying though, so that would have increased my concerns recently. However, regardless of whether my concerns are increasing or not, I still think we need a better management team. I don't see any contradiction in saying both that and that Leo did ok in the circumstances (and based on low expectations). Our attack went to sh!t under MOC and it stayed to sh!t under Leo. This needs to be addressed regardless of whether Leo is there or not.

the alternative of giving Leo and Girv a one year deal would arguably have been much worse, they'd be undermined/lame ducks, would only have bought a couple of months to find someone else new, and then new coach would be 4th in 5 years (and a coach needs 2-3 years to put his stamp on a squad generally)

It was a gamble but one they had to take

[erskinechilders]

I think people are being extremely unfair on this current coaching ticket. They are all inexperienced coaches ( apart from McQuilkin ) and as was previously pointed out in this forum, knowing your own weaknesses is far from a weakness in itself. I truly believe we will have a far better European campaign this year. When you look back at it, apart from both Wasps matches, we didn't have all that bad of a Champions Cup. For a coach in his first year to have to deal with a World Cup where the vast majority of his starting XV and substitutes where gone he did well at the beginning of the Pro 12.

Both Wasps matches were disasters, granted. However, apart from a poor decision to kick at goal from half-way away to Bath instead of going for the try when we were in the complete ascendancy we could easily have one. We pushed Toulon very hard twice also, and could and probably should have won in the Aviva. We beat Bath, who I'll admit were terrible last year, at home with an extremely inexperienced team.

In the Pro 12, we actually began to run the ball again. People look back at the season based on the Pro 12 final where we simply didn't show up but people forget we were missing our captain and our main line-out caller, and a few times we messed decent attacking positions in that first half. With another year of experience, a full pre-season for the WHOLE squad, a few weeks working under Father Ted and a decent European draw I think we'll do a lot better.

The experiences gained from last year will only help players like Tracy, Molony, JVDF, McGrath and Ringrose. The only criticism I have is that of the the recruitment of NIQ players but thats for a different forum and a different time of year!

[arsebiscuits1]

I think people are being extremely unfair on this current coaching ticket. They are all inexperienced coaches ( apart from McQuilkin ) and as was previously pointed out in this forum, knowing your own weaknesses is far from a weakness in itself. I truly believe we will have a far better European campaign this year. When you look back at it, apart from both Wasps matches, we didn't have all that bad of a Champions Cup. For a coach in his first year to have to deal with a World Cup where the vast majority of his starting XV and substitutes where gone he did well at the beginning of the Pro 12.

Both Wasps matches were disasters, granted. However, apart from a poor decision to kick at goal from half-way away to Bath instead of going for the try when we were in the complete ascendancy we could easily have one. We pushed Toulon very hard twice also, and could and probably should have won in the Aviva. We beat Bath, who I'll admit were terrible last year, at home with an extremely inexperienced team.

In the Pro 12, we actually began to run the ball again. People look back at the season based on the Pro 12 final where we simply didn't show up but people forget we were missing our captain and our main line-out caller, and a few times we messed decent attacking positions in that first half. With another year of experience, a full pre-season for the WHOLE squad, a few weeks working under Father Ted and a decent European draw I think we'll do a lot better.

The experiences gained from last year will only help players like Tracy, Molony, JVDF, McGrath and Ringrose. The only criticism I have is that of the the recruitment of NIQ players but thats for a different forum and a different time of year!

+1

Perfectly said. Last season had much more encouraging signs that people are giving credit for. Let's build again this season