Leinster vs Castres Sat Oct 15th @ 15:15

[artaneboy]

decision making is the most important.

No it's not in a 9. There are really just three decisions open to a SH- pass, kick or break. Passing occurs much more frequently than the others; therefore the likelihood that he will pass to the person standing at 10, means that pass must be excellent to keep the advantage for his team.

There are the occasional SH phenomenons who do other things so amazingly well that their poor passing matters less- and even tolerated. But Luke isn't one of them. To be honest he's not even significantly better than Jamie at the other attributes to get in ahead of him now.


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I think you're slightly underselling the role there!

Listen, McGrath is our starting 9, and probably rightly so.
Nobody wishes the guy ill, nor is anybody 'waiting to jump on mistakes'. That's a fabrication. It's over sensitive to say that people are 'willing to have a right go at him at every opportunity!'. Firstly, he's a pro fecking player and this is a fans form. But also he has been rightly lauded on here after the last few games.

But neither is it right to say he played well on Sat. And there's also probably a bit of truth in the fact that it looked worse because he was the elder statesman at 9/10 yet was completely outplayed by Carbery.

I think what's being argued here is semantics and the specifics of what level of hyperbolic language is used on an internet message board to be honest.

It's not underselling the role at all, it's stripping it down to it's essentials. Thee point being to addressing MJ's stat-based defence of Luke.

I never used hyperbole in my critique of McGrath, but if he is the SH 'in possession'- and I'd wonder at that certainty, he's not convincing.


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[wixfjord]

It's not underselling the role at all, it's stripping it down to it's essentials. Thee point being to addressing MJ's stat-based defence of Luke.

I never used hyperbole in my critique of McGrath, but if he is the SH 'in possession'- and I'd wonder at that certainty, he's not convincing.


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Firstly, I wasn't referring to you.

But also, one poor game does not make him 'unconvincing'. Other than last week, he has been very good all year. One of his best performances in blue against Munster.

We have two good, different young 9s. McGrath is in possession at the moment and has more experience at the club and with Johnny. I don't think anyone should have an issue with that.
JGP has looked good also, a better passer and breaker, but he has mostly come on in bigger games and played against smaller Pro 12 sides.

[molloyjh]

I've said it before, defending Luke when he's poor is doing him no favours.

I do often wonder if people actually bother to read what others write at all. Here, let me help:

I agree he had a poor game.

I've said as much a number of times now. My issue is with ridiculously hyperbolic statements like "everything about his passing and decision making was cr@p" or claims he was having a "horror show" of a game. He was poor. He wasn't that poor.

[wixfjord]

I've said it before, defending Luke when he's poor is doing him no favours.

I do often wonder if people actually bother to read what others write at all. Here, let me help:

I agree he had a poor game.

I've said as much a number of times now. My issue is with ridiculously hyperbolic statements like "everything about his passing and decision making was cr@p" or claims he was having a "horror show" of a game. He was poor. He wasn't that poor.

I think you're getting awfully caught up over semantics Molloy.

[Lar]

Rather than analysing individual performances should we not be looking at the progress of Luke over the last couple of seasons. He's always shown signs of great potential and I think its fair to say that he is beginning to deliver on that potential. His passing was always the least precise element of his game from what I remember of him when he first came into the side. He may still have the odd lapse but this side of his game has improved hugely and he is way more consistent now.

[jezzer]

This point has probably been thrashed to death now.

I will say this though, the idea that a SH has only three simple decisions, kick, pass or break, is nonsense.

[leinsterforever]

This point has probably been thrashed to death now.

I will say this though, the idea that a SH has only three simple decisions, kick, pass or break, is nonsense.

Right. He also has to decide which side of the ruck to attack, and whether to pass straight from the base or take a few steps before giving it to a forward. Decision making is massive. McGrath is pretty good in this respect, but I think, in general, how he performs is quite dependent on how well everyone else does their jobs

[Dave Cahill]

Decision making is massive. McGrath is pretty good in this respect, but I think, in general, how he performs is quite dependent on how well everyone else does their jobs

If I were to criticise McGrath it would in this area - I thought he was okayish overall, that would be about it - but he did make one or two bad decisions that cost us tries. In particular he passed a short ball on to Carbury on the short side, who got it and the marker simulataneously, when a better reader of the game (which may come with experience) would have dummied the pass as the defender was almost sold on the pass already, and sauntered in unopposed for the score. That'd be my issue.


We're not used to being patient with scrummies in Leinster. The last number of guys who played in any way regularly arrived pretty much fully formed - Reddan, Boss, Whits and Easterby - that takes us back over a decade I reckon. Sure there have been guys who filled in every now and again - but they were just there when the senior guys were unavailable for whatever reason. McGrath, Gibson-Park and McCarthy are it now, we don't have any choice - whoever we go with will be relatively inexperienced and we're just going to have to bear with them.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

I think he's usually good at taking those kind of chances off the scrum and whilst I reckon he should have recognised the opportunity himself, he should have got a shout to go too.

[Peg Leg]

You can't pass, kick or break the back of a maul

[Raydollard]

McGrath has played well and was fine against Castres. He can be relied on to improve even further and to return the trust placed in him.

On another subject I would not be content with just a LBP against Montpelier. I expect us to win. We are full of class players and are second to none. This is shaping up to be a really good year.

[Peg Leg]

McGrath has played well and was fine against Castres. He can be relied on to improve even further and to return the trust placed in him.

On another subject I would not be content with just a LBP against Montpelier. I expect us to win. We are full of class players and are second to none. This is shaping up to be a really good year.

Give Ray back his phone!

[artaneboy]

This point has probably been thrashed to death now.

I will say this though, the idea that a SH has only three simple decisions, kick, pass or break, is nonsense.

Three essential- if nuanced options. Care to list some more options that differ materially?

[artaneboy]

This point has probably been thrashed to death now.

I will say this though, the idea that a SH has only three simple decisions, kick, pass or break, is nonsense.

Right. He also has to decide which side of the ruck to attack, and whether to pass straight from the base or take a few steps before giving it to a forward. Decision making is massive. McGrath is pretty good in this respect, but I think, in general, how he performs is quite dependent on how well everyone else does their jobs

Oh come on! They all clearly fall under breaking or passing. There's no new category there. In any case the reality is that the break either side of the scrum, ruck is usually hardly a decision at all- more obvious/ instinctive based on the the channel or place the ball emerges from. As to taking steps before passing... ah here- that's more a sign of bad passing technique than a 'decision'.

The point I made in any case, is that a SH (any SH) invariably passes much more than he breaks or kicks, therefore his passing has to be accurate and fast. Attempting to sell decision making as a special skill of a 9 above that of any other player is a barren argument. Passing is the thing for 9s.

[artaneboy]

Decision making is massive. McGrath is pretty good in this respect, but I think, in general, how he performs is quite dependent on how well everyone else does their jobs

If I were to criticise McGrath it would in this area - I thought he was okayish overall, that would be about it - but he did make one or two bad decisions that cost us tries. In particular he passed a short ball on to Carbury on the short side, who got it and the marker simulataneously, when a better reader of the game (which may come with experience) would have dummied the pass as the defender was almost sold on the pass already, and sauntered in unopposed for the score. That'd be my issue.


We're not used to being patient with scrummies in Leinster. The last number of guys who played in any way regularly arrived pretty much fully formed - Reddan, Boss, Whits and Easterby - that takes us back over a decade I reckon. Sure there have been guys who filled in every now and again - but they were just there when the senior guys were unavailable for whatever reason. McGrath, Gibson-Park and McCarthy are it now, we don't have any choice - whoever we go with will be relatively inexperienced and we're just going to have to bear with them.

Agreed. My position is the JGP is showing best at the moment and should start in front of Luke. It's not that Luke is cr@p.

[artaneboy]

You can't pass, kick or break the back of a maul

Who said you could? But if and when they give you the ball- or you drag it off them, you will either pass, kick break then. Simple really- no?

[paddyor]

......
... McGrath, Gibson-Park and McCarthy are it now, we don't have any choice - whoever we go with will be relatively inexperienced and we're just going to have to bear with them.

Prexactly!

[molloyjh]

I think you're getting awfully caught up over semantics Molloy.

Maybe, I just think we can talk about player performances without descending into hyperbole.