Hamstring (and other muscular) injuries

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Hamstring (and other muscular) injuries

Postby All Blacks nil » January 27th, 2017, 2:16 pm

Firstly I posted this on the Castres v Leinster thread but I feel in the interests of Leinster and Irish rugby this warrants its own thread.

Hamstring injuries 2016/2017 season.
SOB - serious
RK - not too serious but cannot shake off in effect becoming more serious.i
Ross- serious
Cronin- serious
Sexton - same as Kearney
James Ryan- Serious
Furlong - not too serious
all with hamstring injuries at various times this season


Ferg has a torn quad, Ruddock is/was struggling with a torn calf.
They are the high profile players and there are possibly more in the Academy. That is an awful lot of guys with leg muscle injuries. Moore, Strauss and Healy have all had serious hamstring injuries in recent seasons.

Interesting quote from Mike Ross in a Q and A piece on Joe.ie last year.
As a tight-head prop, do you undergo specific training drills with your front row colleagues?

Yeah, it's called Fat Club [joke].

We would do extra conditioning work and strengthening exercises. Front-rowers will do a lot of box squats with an extra 40 kilos, or so, on the bar.

3 front rowers in this season's list and Healy and Moore had serious hamstring injuries in the last two seasons. Hamstring finished Strauss' 2014 season
That's six frontline front rows with serious hamstring injuries. Maybe the "fat club" (joke) should be disbanded.

There is an obvious problem within the S+C set up, one for which I am sure a solution is a high priority for the club.
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Re: Hamstring (and other muscular) injuries

Postby molloyjh » January 27th, 2017, 2:57 pm

There may be an issue with what the S&C guys are doing, sure. But correlation does not equal causation as well let's not forget. Too often people seem to be too happy to jump to conclusions with far less information than is required to reach those conclusions. We simply don't know. Theorising that the S&C work is the issue is completely fine. Stating it as fact or saying that it is "obvious" not so much.
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Re: Hamstring (and other muscular) injuries

Postby Oldschool » January 27th, 2017, 4:24 pm

molloyjh wrote:There may be an issue with what the S&C guys are doing, sure. But correlation does not equal causation as well let's not forget. Too often people seem to be too happy to jump to conclusions with far less information than is required to reach those conclusions. We simply don't know. Theorising that the S&C work is the issue is completely fine. Stating it as fact or saying that it is "obvious" not so much.

Another contributory fact can be things like SOB trying to chase down/catch a guy who is quite obviously pulling away.
SOB was going full pelt and putting all his leg muscles at risk - I would hope that not only SOB, but others too, have learned a lesson from it.
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Re: Hamstring (and other muscular) injuries

Postby All Blacks nil » January 27th, 2017, 5:05 pm

Q. As a tight-head prop, do you undergo specific training drills with your front row colleagues?

A. Yeah, it's called Fat Club [joke].

We would do extra conditioning work and strengthening exercises. Front-rowers will do a lot of box squats with an extra 40 kilos, or so, on the bar.



The "Fat Club" to which Mike Ross referred to in a Joe.ie Q&A session (see quote above) last year does seem to have a pretty damning history of serious hamstring injuries.

Healy missed 6-8 months with his "off the bone" hamstring injury and had him doubtful for the RWC.
Moore missed last years Six Nations with a hamstring injury
Cronin misses this years Six Nations and beyond with a hamstring injury
Furlong had a minor hamstring problem earlier this season missed away to Montpelier with a tight hamstring.
Strauss had an off the bone hamstring injury similar to Healy's in May 2014, which had him out for six months
Ross has been out for quite a while with a hamstring injury.

Should the Fat Club be disbanded until the S+C team discover that the run of injuries to front row forwards is purely an unfortunate coincidence and not as a result of a poor S+C programme?
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Re: Hamstring (and other muscular) injuries

Postby Lar » January 27th, 2017, 5:54 pm

Can I be a fly on the wall when someone tells J10 that he's become an honorary member of the Fat Club due to the frequency of his hamstring injuries?
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Re: Hamstring (and other muscular) injuries

Postby molloyjh » January 27th, 2017, 5:57 pm

All Blacks nil wrote:
Q. As a tight-head prop, do you undergo specific training drills with your front row colleagues?

A. Yeah, it's called Fat Club [joke].

We would do extra conditioning work and strengthening exercises. Front-rowers will do a lot of box squats with an extra 40 kilos, or so, on the bar.



The "Fat Club" to which Mike Ross referred to in a Joe.ie Q&A session (see quote above) last year does seem to have a pretty damning history of serious hamstring injuries.

Healy missed 6-8 months with his "off the bone" hamstring injury and had him doubtful for the RWC.
Moore missed last years Six Nations with a hamstring injury
Cronin misses this years Six Nations and beyond with a hamstring injury
Furlong had a minor hamstring problem earlier this season missed away to Montpelier with a tight hamstring.
Strauss had an off the bone hamstring injury similar to Healy's in May 2014, which had him out for six months
Ross has been out for quite a while with a hamstring injury.

Should the Fat Club be disbanded until the S+C team discover that the run of injuries to front row forwards is purely an unfortunate coincidence and not as a result of a poor S+C programme?


Is this some sort of a bizarre echo or something? :mrgreen:
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Re: Hamstring (and other muscular) injuries

Postby neiliog93 » January 27th, 2017, 6:00 pm

Correlation is not causation.

It could be that scrummaging itself puts enormous stress on the leg musculature, and eventually something gives. Equally, the heavier you are (and the props are nearly always the heaviest), the more muscle mass you have, the stronger you are; the more stress you put on your joints, bones, ligaments, tendons and muscles. You are probably more disposed to injury than the average, fit 75-80 kg guy in the general population.

I know one big issue ironically in hamstring issues is over-active quads (i.e tight quads which are doing more work than they should relative to the hamstrings), but I doubt professional S&C guys would let such a basic issue undermine their players.
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Re: Hamstring (and other muscular) injuries

Postby leinsterforever » January 27th, 2017, 6:36 pm

Oldschool wrote:
molloyjh wrote:There may be an issue with what the S&C guys are doing, sure. But correlation does not equal causation as well let's not forget. Too often people seem to be too happy to jump to conclusions with far less information than is required to reach those conclusions. We simply don't know. Theorising that the S&C work is the issue is completely fine. Stating it as fact or saying that it is "obvious" not so much.

Another contributory fact can be things like SOB trying to chase down/catch a guy who is quite obviously pulling away.
SOB was going full pelt and putting all his leg muscles at risk - I would hope that not only SOB, but others too, have learned a lesson from it.


You think a player shouldn't do everything he can to prevent the opposition scoring? I'd have to watch it again, but I think O'Brien was staying with Pisi. Schmidt has made a big thing of Kieran Read's chase back on Rob Kearney in 2013, which made the conversion harder. That's the level of commitment needed from players
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Re: Hamstring (and other muscular) injuries

Postby Oldschool » January 27th, 2017, 7:04 pm

leinsterforever wrote:
Oldschool wrote:
molloyjh wrote:There may be an issue with what the S&C guys are doing, sure. But correlation does not equal causation as well let's not forget. Too often people seem to be too happy to jump to conclusions with far less information than is required to reach those conclusions. We simply don't know. Theorising that the S&C work is the issue is completely fine. Stating it as fact or saying that it is "obvious" not so much.

Another contributory fact can be things like SOB trying to chase down/catch a guy who is quite obviously pulling away.
SOB was going full pelt and putting all his leg muscles at risk - I would hope that not only SOB, but others too, have learned a lesson from it.


You think a player shouldn't do everything he can to prevent the opposition scoring? I'd have to watch it again, but I think O'Brien was staying with Pisi. Schmidt has made a big thing of Kieran Read's chase back on Rob Kearney in 2013, which made the conversion harder. That's the level of commitment needed from players

No way was he staying with PISI, absolutely no way and he was miles behind.
I think a player should be a realist and not waste energy or risk injury where there is zero chance of him changing the outcome or the position of the resultant conversion.
That's in the context of a single incident like the one referred to.
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Re: Hamstring (and other muscular) injuries

Postby leinsterforever » January 27th, 2017, 7:13 pm

Oldschool wrote:No way was he staying with PISI, absolutely no way and he was miles behind.
I think a player should be a realist and not waste energy or risk injury where there is zero chance of him changing the outcome or the position of the resultant conversion.
That's in the context of a single incident like the one referred to.


O'Brien doesn't lose any ground on Pisi. The gap stays at about 5m all the way. Chasing seemingly lost causes is part of the game. What if Pisi pulls a hamstring 15m out, but is able to limp over the line cos no-one bothered chasing back?
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Re: Hamstring (and other muscular) injuries

Postby simonokeeffe » January 27th, 2017, 7:18 pm

Just by nature of body type and work they do especially scrummaging front rowers are going to have to do a lot of serious deadlifting amongst other things

Ross is 37
RK sorry for repetition but am convinced his hamstring issues are stemming from a back problem

would love to see similar for other clubs/provinces
When he spreads his legs like that youd need dynamite or the Highland Light Infantry to shift him.
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Re: Hamstring (and other muscular) injuries

Postby Ultra Vires » January 28th, 2017, 9:46 pm

Perhaps Leinster should be putting a lot more emphasis on stretching and slightly less on power exercises. I don't know what their weekly S&C routine is there but I would really hope that they have intense Pilates or yoga classes. Seriously. The benefits are just as notable and important as the brute strength weight training. Lots of intensive stretching prevents injuries and actually provides another form of strength in itself.
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Re: Hamstring (and other muscular) injuries

Postby Oldschoolsocks » January 28th, 2017, 10:21 pm

An army of supple leopards


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the irony being that ad-hominen and appeal to majority are the most often used defences of the apologist.
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Re: Hamstring (and other muscular) injuries

Postby riocard911 » January 29th, 2017, 2:21 am

Ultra Vires wrote:Perhaps Leinster should be putting a lot more emphasis on stretching and slightly less on power exercises. I don't know what their weekly S&C routine is there but I would really hope that they have intense Pilates or yoga classes. Seriously. The benefits are just as notable and important as the brute strength weight training. Lots of intensive stretching prevents injuries and actually provides another form of strength in itself.


Jamie supposedly does yoga. Maybe they should all follow his example!!!!
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Re: Hamstring (and other muscular) injuries

Postby Oldschoolsocks » January 29th, 2017, 5:15 am

riocard911 wrote:
Ultra Vires wrote:Perhaps Leinster should be putting a lot more emphasis on stretching and slightly less on power exercises. I don't know what their weekly S&C routine is there but I would really hope that they have intense Pilates or yoga classes. Seriously. The benefits are just as notable and important as the brute strength weight training. Lots of intensive stretching prevents injuries and actually provides another form of strength in itself.


Jamie supposedly does yoga. Maybe they should all follow his example!!!!

Supposedly he he has ridden ALL of their sisters too (obviously of age etc.)so...
the irony being that ad-hominen and appeal to majority are the most often used defences of the apologist.
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Re: Hamstring (and other muscular) injuries

Postby All Blacks nil » January 29th, 2017, 1:22 pm

Oldschoolsocks wrote:
riocard911 wrote:
Ultra Vires wrote:Perhaps Leinster should be putting a lot more emphasis on stretching and slightly less on power exercises. I don't know what their weekly S&C routine is there but I would really hope that they have intense Pilates or yoga classes. Seriously. The benefits are just as notable and important as the brute strength weight training. Lots of intensive stretching prevents injuries and actually provides another form of strength in itself.


Jamie supposedly does yoga. Maybe they should all follow his example!!!!

Supposedly he he has ridden ALL of their sisters too (obviously of age etc.)so...


4.15am posts on a Sat night/ Sun mornings are always the best
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Re: Hamstring (and other muscular) injuries

Postby Ultra Vires » January 29th, 2017, 8:21 pm

riocard911 wrote:
Ultra Vires wrote:Perhaps Leinster should be putting a lot more emphasis on stretching and slightly less on power exercises. I don't know what their weekly S&C routine is there but I would really hope that they have intense Pilates or yoga classes. Seriously. The benefits are just as notable and important as the brute strength weight training. Lots of intensive stretching prevents injuries and actually provides another form of strength in itself.


Jamie supposedly does yoga. Maybe they should all follow his example!!!!


And he gets injured the least! Point proven. I know plenty of lads who extended their (non-professional) rugby and GAA careers by balancing the weights with hot yoga.
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Re: Hamstring (and other muscular) injuries

Postby Morf » January 30th, 2017, 2:17 am

Stretching hasn't been proven to reduce occurrence of injury.

Where ROM is an issue it will contribute to injury but as of in itself stretching isn't a magical thing to protect soft tissue.

Above all else increases in muscle force output reduces injury.
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Re: Hamstring (and other muscular) injuries

Postby Oldschool » January 30th, 2017, 10:29 am

Morf wrote:Stretching hasn't been proven to reduce occurrence of injury.

Where ROM is an issue it will contribute to injury but as of in itself stretching isn't a magical thing to protect soft tissue.

Above all else increases in muscle force output reduces injury.

An effective warm up and an effective warm down are very important.
Coming back from injury too soon is also a problem.
Coming back from injury at the wrong standard is wrong.
An international should come back at club level, then pro12 and then bench International.
Full impact training doesn't exist.
Full impact is game time only and I don't care what the experts say.
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Re: Hamstring (and other muscular) injuries

Postby simonokeeffe » January 30th, 2017, 12:53 pm

Ian Madigan interview today on RTE
They did a study 2 years ago on why there was a spate of muscle injuries and what they found was changing between surfaces was causing it
When he spreads his legs like that youd need dynamite or the Highland Light Infantry to shift him.
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