Leinster Senior Squad 2017/2018

[Flash Gordon]

We always hear about the financial side of things though. "Oh look at England and France and all that cash".

We have things that they don't have. We have huge catchment areas and the potential to develop relatively large numbers of players to a top class standard. Look at some of the players Irish academies have produced over the years. Look at Leinster at the moment. We went toe to toe with some of England and Frances best in April with 11 Leinster born and bred in the starting 15 and another 4 or 5 on the bench.

People complain about internationals being rested in the league, but if you look at it there isn't a huge difference between the number of games they play in a season compared to the number some of the English lads play in the AP. And when the lads aren't playing we get to see upcoming stars like Leavy or Carbery. These guys simply wouldn't have gotten the same level of game time if the internationals were playing more. The real problem is that we just have more internationals than your standard English or French side. And that won't change. It can't.

So we have a totally different model because we are in a totally different situation. It'd be nice if people actually looked at the positives that brings, because the different models each have their own set of pros and cons. Look at the French national team for example. Or the levels of debt in England that almost led to the collapse of Wasps. We have a model where we dominate our league, we are generally competitive in Europe and we arguably punch above our weight internationally. All in a financial model that's pretty stable and sustainable.

All of those things are true but the reality of that situation is that we haven't won a European Cup since 2012 or even been to a final. You hit the nail on the head in terms of our competitive advantage, the Academy producing home grown players who have been coached and skilled in the Leinster way from the age of 7 or so and who play for something more than just cash. However, that's only a competitive advantage if the lads actually play. Your thoughts on young lads coming through are fair in terms of giving them game time but playing together regularly as a team helps make teams better.

From a supporter point of view you want to see great games played by front line players, we're seeing uncompetitive games played by second tier players and crowds are dropping off.

You mention financials and I take your point on sugar daddies - though there are a lot of them in France and England and they will keep coming. Sure, very now and again a club will go to the wall but for every Richmond there's a Bristol waiting to replace them - that's the reality of what we're up against and I don't think that will change for some time. So how do we get competitive? WE have the academy advantage but I still think there is significant revenue being left behind due to the way we approach the league. It's not just fans who want to be associated with world class teams fielding world class players in a competitive league, it's TV, Sponsorship and brands. The new format is highly marketable and has genuine potential to recruit new fans but again, the formation of the league and its announcement was pretty chaotic, Leinster will pick a team for the weekend with very few players who will compete for Champions Cup places and I have seen absolutely no marketing or messaging coming from the branch to promote this exciting new development.

Like everything in life and sport in particular you strive to be the best you can be, I don't think we are the best we could be to be honest.

[Peg Leg]

Great post flash. Only thing i would counter with is that i think the value, in monetary terms, entire club game is overestimated. Forecasts for attendance and viewing numbers are way off and the costs are heading towards something the operation cant support.

[molloyjh]

All of those things are true but the reality of that situation is that we haven't won a European Cup since 2012 or even been to a final. You hit the nail on the head in terms of our competitive advantage, the Academy producing home grown players who have been coached and skilled in the Leinster way from the age of 7 or so and who play for something more than just cash. However, that's only a competitive advantage if the lads actually play. Your thoughts on young lads coming through are fair in terms of giving them game time but playing together regularly as a team helps make teams better.

From a supporter point of view you want to see great games played by front line players, we're seeing uncompetitive games played by second tier players and crowds are dropping off.

You mention financials and I take your point on sugar daddies - though there are a lot of them in France and England and they will keep coming. Sure, very now and again a club will go to the wall but for every Richmond there's a Bristol waiting to replace them - that's the reality of what we're up against and I don't think that will change for some time. So how do we get competitive? WE have the academy advantage but I still think there is significant revenue being left behind due to the way we approach the league. It's not just fans who want to be associated with world class teams fielding world class players in a competitive league, it's TV, Sponsorship and brands. The new format is highly marketable and has genuine potential to recruit new fans but again, the formation of the league and its announcement was pretty chaotic, Leinster will pick a team for the weekend with very few players who will compete for Champions Cup places and I have seen absolutely no marketing or messaging coming from the branch to promote this exciting new development.

Like everything in life and sport in particular you strive to be the best you can be, I don't think we are the best we could be to be honest.

I think it's an incredibly dangerous thing to judge where we are based on European finals/trophies, and by doing so then you're base line is far too demanding. How many teams have consistently played in finals and/or won finals over periods greater than a couple of years? None. These things always go in peaks and troughs. There are loads of things we can't control. Injuries, the bounce of a ball, refereeing decisions. We've had 1 bad season in Europe and 1 bad season in the league during a real period of transition. We've been in knock outs every other year. Most teams would sell large collection of organs to be able to say that. Under-performance in those was rarely, if ever, down to player welfare.

Could we improve? Yes. Could every other team in some ways? Yes. If you're demanding perfection you're going to be waiting I'm afraid. We have a model that, as I said, has its pros and its cons. Other leagues have different models, those too with their own pros and cons. Our model gives a good balance between developing players, remaining competitive at provincial level and remaining competitive at international level. I seriously doubt there are any realistic models out there that could allow you to be perfect in all of the above. There has to be give and take.

[Ruckedtobits]

Disagree with that conclusion @molloyjh. Based on the quantity and quality of our player production and development we should be in League and Cup finals every season. We have provided a higher % of players to our National Squad that any other team in Europe for the past three seasons. Our National team have been ranked 3rd or 4th in World rankings during that period.

Toulouse dominated French and European rugby for a decade with a lesser number of international players (but more overseas players), so the model exists to emulate.

Glasgow and Connacht won Pro12 titles with smart innovative coaching. But, IMO, Pivac's success with Llanelli last season, in both style and timing, was coaching right up to the Joe Schmidt level. Saracens, Clermont, Castres, Toulon and Racing have all won trophies at the top level and coaching and team mental preparation has been the key of each triumph.

Leinster has the components to acheive Toulouse-like success but our coaching and big-match preparation must be more focussed on winning trophies than on international player development. The IRFU will not and does not share this objective and it can only come from within Leinster. All stakeholders, and I include fans, must emphasise and demand this success and not be merely satisfied with great success in player development.

It is possible to dominate a sports code for a prolonged period, if you have the resources and the leadership from the top. Not necessarily bombastic leadership, but effective, ruthless leadership as demonstrated in hurling by Kilkenny, in football by Dublin, in soccer by Real Madrid, in Water Polo by Hungary, in NFL by The Packers and the 49'ers.

Detailed player development, allied to internal competition, coupled with focussed motivation and deep-seated ambition seem to be the key ingredients that each of the great successful teams in any code exhibited. We have a number of the key elements, but without them all together, peaks and troughs shared across many teams will be the norm. But it needn't be that way and Leinster have many of the necessary elements in place. But do we have the deep-seated ambition at the leadership levels throughout the Province - CEO, Professional Board, Leinster Executive Committee, and above all, the Coaching Team and Playing Squad.

Ambition for Provincial success will never come from the IRFU. It can only come from within the Province, STH, and other supporters, media, sponsors, Clubs. These are the key stakeholders and they must demand success from all of the leadership groups noted above. Ambition requires sacrifice of other elements, being liked or not getting hurt. Ruthless ambition rejects everything placed in its way in the acheivement of success.

[Dave Cahill]

thats all very well and good RTB, but ask yourself the following question.

How well did Rob Kearney play in the 2016 Pro12 final?

[Ruckedtobits]

And my answer might be "why did he play in 2016 Pro12 final?".

Ambition requires ruthless selection from time to time. Have a look at how ruhless is Gavin from time to time and how Cody has ommited 'big names' when he considered it necessary and rarely failed to get the response he sought.

Tough job being head coach but difficult selections are some of the hardest calls that have to be made. Internal competition is key to selection so lets get on with it.

[Dave Cahill]

He played in the Pro12 final to see if he'd be fit enough to travel to South Africa with Ireland. Thats where we are, and all the ambition and processes and excellence in the world don't mean diddly-squat because some bloke can use us, even playing in a final, as a training run for his team. It was a ruthless selection alright, but it had nothing to do with Leinster.

[curates_egg]

He played in the Pro12 final to see if he'd be fit enough to travel to South Africa with Ireland. Thats where we are, and all the ambition and processes and excellence in the world don't mean diddly-squat because some bloke can use us, even playing in a final, as a training run for his team. It was a ruthless selection alright, but it had nothing to do with Leinster.

It's not fair to blame our short shrift solely on Schmidt/Nucifora. Look at how "our Lions" selections were managed to their interest and the disruption of ours.
SOB playing in fits and starts, at varying degrees of commitment; and then, suddenly, miraculously, getting an uninterrupted run with the Lions and playing at a level of octane seen only a few times since 2013.
Or Sexton getting to play when, where and for how long he wanted, regardless of the disruption to the team e.g. in the semi-final, when any other player would have gotten the crook after a stinking performance.
Long story longer, the senior players clearly also have some sway on selection.

[Dave Cahill]

The lions tour once every four years. What about the other three years? What the Lions tour has done is shine a light on the Irish player management system and highlighted its lack of merit or real benefit and emphasised how passive the position of the provinces is in it

[Flash Gordon]

He played in the Pro12 final to see if he'd be fit enough to travel to South Africa with Ireland. Thats where we are, and all the ambition and processes and excellence in the world don't mean diddly-squat because some bloke can use us, even playing in a final, as a training run for his team. It was a ruthless selection alright, but it had nothing to do with Leinster.

It's not fair to blame our short shrift solely on Schmidt/Nucifora. Look at how "our Lions" selections were managed to their interest and the disruption of ours.
SOB playing in fits and starts, at varying degrees of commitment; and then, suddenly, miraculously, getting an uninterrupted run with the Lions and playing at a level of octane seen only a few times since 2013.
Or Sexton getting to play when, where and for how long he wanted, regardless of the disruption to the team e.g. in the semi-final, when any other player would have gotten the crook after a stinking performance.
Long story longer, the senior players clearly also have some sway on selection.

I find it hard to believe that a player with Sean O'Brien's temperament argued a case for him not to play. I suspect the situation is more likely to be that when Sexton and O'Brien were off the IRFU radar they played games for the Lions and they absolutely wanted to play those games.

[wixfjord]

The lions tour once every four years. What about the other three years? What the Lions tour has done is shine a light on the Irish player management system and highlighted its lack of merit or real benefit and emphasised how passive the position of the provinces is in it

Lack of merit or benefit for whom?

Also, it hardly needs emphasising that the provinces play an active role in the IRFU player management system.

[Dave Cahill]

The lions tour once every four years. What about the other three years? What the Lions tour has done is shine a light on the Irish player management system and highlighted its lack of merit or real benefit and emphasised how passive the position of the provinces is in it

Lack of merit or benefit for whom?

Also, it hardly needs emphasising that the provinces play an active role in the IRFU player management system.

For Ireland, the provinces and the players. It benefits none of them.

Saying the provinces play an active role in the player management system is like saying the pig plays an active role in the hens bacon and eggs!

[wixfjord]

The lions tour once every four years. What about the other three years? What the Lions tour has done is shine a light on the Irish player management system and highlighted its lack of merit or real benefit and emphasised how passive the position of the provinces is in it

Lack of merit or benefit for whom?

Also, it hardly needs emphasising that the provinces play an active role in the IRFU player management system.

For Ireland, the provinces and the players. It benefits none of them.

Saying the provinces play an active role in the player management system is like saying the pig plays an active role in the hens bacon and eggs!

Exactly the IRFU runs the show, the provinces are part of the system insofar as they're told what to do. Did anyone ever think otherwise?!

In terms of it being of no benefit to Ireland and the players, how do you make that out?

[Flash Gordon]

I think a lot of this debate is driven by a lack of clarity from within the IRFU and provinces. The old Strategic plans had very specific objectives for the provinces in terms of winning Heineken Cups and Celtic Leagues do these documents even exist any more?

The other thing playing on my mind is the evolution of rugby to a place where only the elite matter. The debate on international vs provincial involves the belief that the national team is prioritised (which I think is clearly true) but this seems to be evolving to clearer DEPRIORITISATION of provincial rugby - particularly the league though we also see elite players not participating in the Champions Cup. This Elitist ethos is a real danger to the long term future of the game - you see it now in schools and clubs. Unless you're a contender for a professional contract you're out of the game. And when you are, you have to adopt a professional approach to life. You can see this becoming like American Football where participation elites play and everyone else watches.

For me the IRFU needs to hold itself accountable for development and success at all levels of the game not just because I believe this to be the right thing to do but the belief that the international game will always be the be all and end all of rugby is absolutely not necessarily a given.

[wixfjord]

I think a lot of this debate is driven by a lack of clarity from within the IRFU and provinces. The old Strategic plans had very specific objectives for the provinces in terms of winning Heineken Cups and Celtic Leagues do these documents even exist any more?

The other thing playing on my mind is the evolution of rugby to a place where only the elite matter. The debate on international vs provincial involves the belief that the national team is prioritised (which I think is clearly true) but this seems to be evolving to clearer DEPRIORITISATION of provincial rugby - particularly the league though we also see elite players not participating in the Champions Cup. This Elitist ethos is a real danger to the long term future of the game - you see it now in schools and clubs. Unless you're a contender for a professional contract you're out of the game. And when you are, you have to adopt a professional approach to life. You can see this becoming like American Football where participation elites play and everyone else watches.

For me the IRFU needs to hold itself accountable for development and success at all levels of the game not just because I believe this to be the right thing to do but the belief that the international game will always be the be all and end all of rugby is absolutely not necessarily a given.

Of course the national team is prioritised, who is saying it's not? Indeed it should be, it's where all the money comes from. It will take an enormous swing in the game for international rugby ever not to be the 'be all and end all'.

As Leinster fans we forget that the foremost reason our province exists is to provide better players for Ireland. That's not going to change any time soon, whether we like it or not.

You mentioned that 'we also see elite players not participating in the Champions Cup'. Any examples of that?
From everything we know, the player management system does not impinge on Europe at all. In fact they've categorically said that.

[the spoofer]

I think a lot of this debate is driven by a lack of clarity from within the IRFU and provinces. The old Strategic plans had very specific objectives for the provinces in terms of winning Heineken Cups and Celtic Leagues do these documents even exist any more?

The other thing playing on my mind is the evolution of rugby to a place where only the elite matter. The debate on international vs provincial involves the belief that the national team is prioritised (which I think is clearly true) but this seems to be evolving to clearer DEPRIORITISATION of provincial rugby - particularly the league though we also see elite players not participating in the Champions Cup. This Elitist ethos is a real danger to the long term future of the game - you see it now in schools and clubs. Unless you're a contender for a professional contract you're out of the game. And when you are, you have to adopt a professional approach to life. You can see this becoming like American Football where participation elites play and everyone else watches.

For me the IRFU needs to hold itself accountable for development and success at all levels of the game not just because I believe this to be the right thing to do but the belief that the international game will always be the be all and end all of rugby is absolutely not necessarily a given.

As Leinster fans we forget that the foremost reason our province exists is to provide better players for Ireland. That's not going to change any time soon, whether we like it or not.

You mentioned that 'we also see elite players not participating in the Champions Cup'. Any examples of that?
From everything we know, the player management system does not impinge on Europe at all. In fact they've categorically said that.

DP

[the spoofer]

I think a lot of this debate is driven by a lack of clarity from within the IRFU and provinces. The old Strategic plans had very specific objectives for the provinces in terms of winning Heineken Cups and Celtic Leagues do these documents even exist any more?

The other thing playing on my mind is the evolution of rugby to a place where only the elite matter. The debate on international vs provincial involves the belief that the national team is prioritised (which I think is clearly true) but this seems to be evolving to clearer DEPRIORITISATION of provincial rugby - particularly the league though we also see elite players not participating in the Champions Cup. This Elitist ethos is a real danger to the long term future of the game - you see it now in schools and clubs. Unless you're a contender for a professional contract you're out of the game. And when you are, you have to adopt a professional approach to life. You can see this becoming like American Football where participation elites play and everyone else watches.

For me the IRFU needs to hold itself accountable for development and success at all levels of the game not just because I believe this to be the right thing to do but the belief that the international game will always be the be all and end all of rugby is absolutely not necessarily a given.

Of course the national team is prioritised, who is saying it's not? Indeed it should be, it's where all the money comes from. It will take an enormous swing in the game for international rugby ever not to be the 'be all and end all'.

As Leinster fans we forget that the foremost reason our province exists is to provide better players for Ireland. That's not going to change any time soon, whether we like it or not.

You mentioned that 'we also see elite players not participating in the Champions Cup'. Any examples of that?
From everything we know, the player management system does not impinge on Europe at all. In fact they've categorically said that.

This thing of "that's where all the money comes from" is not entirely true. As I understand it, there is a very small gap between the funds the IRFU earn from Leinster and the contribution they make to Leinster and this gap could possibly be bridged if Leinster were able to field their big name players more regularly.

[Ruckedtobits]

I think a lot of this debate is driven by a lack of clarity from within the IRFU and provinces. The old Strategic plans had very specific objectives for the provinces in terms of winning Heineken Cups and Celtic Leagues do these documents even exist any more?

The other thing playing on my mind is the evolution of rugby to a place where only the elite matter. The debate on international vs provincial involves the belief that the national team is prioritised (which I think is clearly true) but this seems to be evolving to clearer DEPRIORITISATION of provincial rugby - particularly the league though we also see elite players not participating in the Champions Cup. This Elitist ethos is a real danger to the long term future of the game - you see it now in schools and clubs. Unless you're a contender for a professional contract you're out of the game. And when you are, you have to adopt a professional approach to life. You can see this becoming like American Football where participation elites play and everyone else watches.

For me the IRFU needs to hold itself accountable for development and success at all levels of the game not just because I believe this to be the right thing to do but the belief that the international game will always be the be all and end all of rugby is absolutely not necessarily a given.

Of course the national team is prioritised, who is saying it's not? Indeed it should be, it's where all the money comes from. It will take an enormous swing in the game for international rugby ever not to be the 'be all and end all'.

As Leinster fans we forget that the foremost reason our province exists is to provide better players for Ireland. That's not going to change any time soon, whether we like it or not.
.

That last sentence is part of what I believe could be changed - if all Leinster stakeholders demanded it. Those stakeholders include STH's, Sponsors, Media, Leinster Executive Committee, CEO etc. They also include many Leinster fans, who incidentally are also the purchasers of almost 70% of all IRFU tickets - a figure previously conceded by the Union.

If the Leinster stakeholders were as noisy as those down south were in demanding to be bailed out of their debt, the decisions made by Schmidt and Nucifora would be different and the control that Leo, Girv and Bomber could exert over all players in the Leinster Squad wouls be altered. That control might include ommiting players with central contracts who don't appear to compete hard enough for their places wearing a Leinster jersey. That's the evidence which emerges from Kilkenny, Dublin, Real Madrid.

IMO, it's time to push the envelope on Leinster's ambition and National player welfare. The Game time played by our players on a Lions Tour - once every four years- proves that some have the capacity to play more than they do in the other three years. They should do so in Blue, if they prove they have the appetite still. If not, our Coaches must have the right to select some of those younger players who are showing they have the talent and hunger to seek wins and trophies for Leinster.

[Peg Leg]

I think a lot of this debate is driven by a lack of clarity from within the IRFU and provinces. The old Strategic plans had very specific objectives for the provinces in terms of winning Heineken Cups and Celtic Leagues do these documents even exist any more?

The other thing playing on my mind is the evolution of rugby to a place where only the elite matter. The debate on international vs provincial involves the belief that the national team is prioritised (which I think is clearly true) but this seems to be evolving to clearer DEPRIORITISATION of provincial rugby - particularly the league though we also see elite players not participating in the Champions Cup. This Elitist ethos is a real danger to the long term future of the game - you see it now in schools and clubs. Unless you're a contender for a professional contract you're out of the game. And when you are, you have to adopt a professional approach to life. You can see this becoming like American Football where participation elites play and everyone else watches.

For me the IRFU needs to hold itself accountable for development and success at all levels of the game not just because I believe this to be the right thing to do but the belief that the international game will always be the be all and end all of rugby is absolutely not necessarily a given.

Of course the national team is prioritised, who is saying it's not? Indeed it should be, it's where all the money comes from. It will take an enormous swing in the game for international rugby ever not to be the 'be all and end all'.

As Leinster fans we forget that the foremost reason our province exists is to provide better players for Ireland. That's not going to change any time soon, whether we like it or not.

You mentioned that 'we also see elite players not participating in the Champions Cup'. Any examples of that?
From everything we know, the player management system does not impinge on Europe at all. In fact they've categorically said that.

This thing of "that's where all the money comes from" is not entirely true. As I understand it, there is a very small gap between the funds the IRFU earn from Leinster and the contribution they make to Leinster and this gap could possibly be bridged if Leinster were able to field their big name players more regularly.

Those big name player salaries would be the hurdle there

[riocard911]

I would have thought the IRFU's commitment to the Pro 14 with all that that entails and envisages would be predicated upon the Irish provinces being as successful as possible in it as well as in the ERCC. The IRFU doesn't just have its eye on the gate and the TV income from Test rugby but also from the latest version of the Celtic League, with which they hope to compete with the English and the French. Or am I missing something?......