Leinster - First choice 23.

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Leinster - First choice 23.

Postby Oldschool » March 25th, 2017, 11:38 am

Excluding long term injuries, do we or Leo know what our first choice line up is, at this stage of the season?
1. McGrath
2. Cronin
3. Furlong
4. Triggs
5. Toner
6. Conan
7. FDV
8. Heaslip
9. McGrath
10. Sexton
11. Isa
12. Henshaw
13. Ringrose
14. Byrne
15. RK

16. Healy
17. Tracey
18. Bent
19.
20. Leavy
21. GP
22. Carberry
23.
Any other suggestions or reshuffles?
For example you might consider RK long term injured, so how would that affect the lineup.
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Re: Leinster - First choice 23.

Postby Oldschoolsocks » March 25th, 2017, 12:50 pm

I'd actually have Leavy on before VDF, also think Ross Byrne in place of Carberry is an open question - I would definitely lean towards Carberry, but Byrne has been really good.

Really fancy ROL in there for obvious reasons, so Isa to 15 and ROL on the left?
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Re: Leinster - First choice 23.

Postby leinsterfan100 » March 25th, 2017, 1:29 pm

I wouldn't be leaving O'Brien out of the 23 anyway
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Re: Leinster - First choice 23.

Postby simonokeeffe » March 25th, 2017, 1:38 pm

SOB for Conan

Reid or McFadden at a push 23
19 the hard one prob McCarthy
When he spreads his legs like that youd need dynamite or the Highland Light Infantry to shift him.
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Re: Leinster - First choice 23.

Postby Oldschool » March 25th, 2017, 8:42 pm

Oldschool wrote:Excluding long term injuries, do we or Leo know what our first choice line up is, at this stage of the season?
1. McGrath
2. Cronin
3. Furlong
4. Triggs
5. Toner
6. SOB
7. FDV
8. Heaslip
9. McGrath
10. Sexton
11. Isa
12. Henshaw
13. Ringrose
14.
15. RK

16. Healy
17. Tracey
18. Bent
19.
20. Conan
21. GP
22. Carberry
23.
Any other suggestions or reshuffles?
For example you might consider RK long term injured, so how would that affect the lineup.

Apologies to SOB and poor Leavy.
Adam Byrne's defence rules him out.
I find it hard to believe that he doesn't know to stay out and mark his opposite number - that is basic, deserving of a good kick up the hole, sorry to say.
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Re: Leinster - First choice 23.

Postby LeinsterLeader » March 25th, 2017, 9:52 pm

I've watched Adam Byrne and Cian Kelleher very closely over the last three years in 'A' matches. Whenever both or either of these guys were playing I tended to watch them on the pitch almost exclusively. Mainly because I taught they were both really really exiting players (particularly Kelleher) and I wanted to see why other less exiting players like Mick McGrath and Fanjo were getting starts (in truth even Dave K and Ferg weren't as exiting as these guys). To cut a long story short in my humble opinion (and it's only that) it was because they were poor defenders (or at least passive defenders) and Leinster as a club don't do passive defenders in their wingers. I remember one B&I game in particular (I think it was against Rotherham) CK slide off 3 simple tackles in the space of about 10 minutes, leading to 2 tries. In the end we won comfortably and CK got some tries and nobody seemed to mind. But I think Matt did and in fairness I think Joe or Michael Chekia would have too.

I remember at the time some posters here were despondent that players like this were not getting in the team. The feeling was that they should go to Connacht, where Connacht would cherish their strengths. In reflection I think this true. I think both these players would have been in the Connacht team over the last two years. But I think also (again this is only my opinion) that Connacht under Pat Lam don't prioritize defense from their wingers as much as Leinster. And maybe this is how it should be. God knows I love watching guys like Adam Byrne, ROL and CK with the ball in their hand running at the opposition. Maybe a teams wingers should be all about attack and scoring and their only real job in defense should be to slow guys down until the "bigger guys" get there.

However, when I think about it I can't shake the feeling that at the end of the day, the really great teams, the ones that win the big prizes consistently just don't do passive defending from their wingers. Remember when we ruled Europe we had guys like Luke F, Shaggy and Isa on the wings. All guys who knew there way around a tackle.

Anyway, Just something to think about!

Edit:
I know this hasn't really anything to do with our First Choice 23, but it seemed as good a place as any.
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Re: Leinster - First choice 23.

Postby Ruckedtobits » March 25th, 2017, 11:24 pm

There has been so much written about RK's deficencies (the majority inaccurate), that it's worth highlighting a game where one of his biggest strengths was missing. In the away game against N'hampton, Rob gave Adam Byrne not one, but two, huge volleys of advice / abuse for his positioning. In years past, Shaggy and Ferg were previous recipients. He enjoyed a far more benign relationship with Isa.

Part of the modern role of Full-back is to organise and discipline your companion wingers (and usually also your out-half). Like the modern soccer Goalkeeper, organising and aligning your defence is part and parcel of the No. 15's responsibility.

This afternoon's game proved that naivete is at the heart of our defending in broken play and we must play Isa at full back next week, probably with Ferg and either O'Loughlin / Daly on the other wing. Wasps have pace and guile in their backline and would cut us to shreds if we gave another display like today. The line must move up together and there must be cover for high attackers who lose possession.

15. Isa
14. Ferg
13. Ringrose
12. Henshaw
11. O'Loughlin
10. Sexton
9. McGrath
8. Conan
7. O'Brien
6. Leavy
5. Toner
4. Triggs
3. Furlong
2. Strauss
1. McGrath

Bench
16. Treacy
17. Healy
18. Bent
19. Molony
20 JVdF
21. JGP
22. Carbery
23. A Byrne
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Re: Leinster - First choice 23.

Postby Ruckedtobits » March 26th, 2017, 12:04 am

BTW, hopefully by this time next week, we will have good reason to send the Blues Coaching staff a couple of bottles of bubbly for highlighting a deficiency which might only have appeared next week if we had scored 4 tries and the Blues had "rolled over to get their tummy's tickled".

As Leo pointed out in his post-match media, this was a big learning for us and one we got away with.
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Re: Leinster - First choice 23.

Postby riocard911 » March 26th, 2017, 2:31 am

Ruckedtobits wrote:BTW, hopefully by this time next week, we will have good reason to send the Blues Coaching staff a couple of bottles of bubbly for highlighting a deficiency which might only have appeared next week if we had scored 4 tries and the Blues had "rolled over to get their tummy's tickled".

As Leo pointed out in his post-match media, this was a big learning for us and one we got away with.


+1. I'll bet at certain stages in the proceedings Locky was regretting that particular choice of words......
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Re: Leinster - First choice 23.

Postby Cor. Ind. » March 26th, 2017, 5:47 am

Oldschool wrote:7. FDV


:?

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Re: Leinster - First choice 23.

Postby MarkJ » March 28th, 2017, 10:50 am

LeinsterLeader wrote:I've watched Adam Byrne and Cian Kelleher very closely over the last three years in 'A' matches. Whenever both or either of these guys were playing I tended to watch them on the pitch almost exclusively. Mainly because I taught they were both really really exiting players (particularly Kelleher) and I wanted to see why other less exiting players like Mick McGrath and Fanjo were getting starts (in truth even Dave K and Ferg weren't as exiting as these guys). To cut a long story short in my humble opinion (and it's only that) it was because they were poor defenders (or at least passive defenders) and Leinster as a club don't do passive defenders in their wingers. I remember one B&I game in particular (I think it was against Rotherham) CK slide off 3 simple tackles in the space of about 10 minutes, leading to 2 tries. In the end we won comfortably and CK got some tries and nobody seemed to mind. But I think Matt did and in fairness I think Joe or Michael Chekia would have too.

I remember at the time some posters here were despondent that players like this were not getting in the team. The feeling was that they should go to Connacht, where Connacht would cherish their strengths. In reflection I think this true. I think both these players would have been in the Connacht team over the last two years. But I think also (again this is only my opinion) that Connacht under Pat Lam don't prioritize defense from their wingers as much as Leinster. And maybe this is how it should be. God knows I love watching guys like Adam Byrne, ROL and CK with the ball in their hand running at the opposition. Maybe a teams wingers should be all about attack and scoring and their only real job in defense should be to slow guys down until the "bigger guys" get there.

However, when I think about it I can't shake the feeling that at the end of the day, the really great teams, the ones that win the big prizes consistently just don't do passive defending from their wingers. Remember when we ruled Europe we had guys like Luke F, Shaggy and Isa on the wings. All guys who knew there way around a tackle.

Anyway, Just something to think about!

Edit:
I know this hasn't really anything to do with our First Choice 23, but it seemed as good a place as any.


Good observation LeinsterLeader - I think any winger will (and should) struggle to make Leinster's first choice 23 if they don't have a strong defensive game.
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Re: Leinster - First choice 23.

Postby sunshiner1 » March 28th, 2017, 12:16 pm

by Ruckedtobits

There has been so much written about RK's deficencies (the majority inaccurate), that it's worth highlighting a game where one of his biggest strengths was missing. In the away game against N'hampton, Rob gave Adam Byrne not one, but two, huge volleys of advice / abuse for his positioning. In years past, Shaggy and Ferg were previous recipients. He enjoyed a far more benign relationship with Isa.

Part of the modern role of Full-back is to organise and discipline your companion wingers (and usually also your out-half). Like the modern soccer Goalkeeper, organising and aligning your defence is part and parcel of the No. 15's responsibility.


My main bugbear with RK has nothing to do with his defense which I think is top-class, my problem with him is that everytime he gets the ball and goes on the attack with it he seems to look for contact rather than the soft shoulder that the likes of Payne does. This might have being intentional at one stage as a tactical play but now it just seems like habit to him and a bad one at that.
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Re: Leinster - First choice 23.

Postby ronk » April 9th, 2017, 9:58 pm

He does get sprinting very quickly though.
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Re: Leinster - First choice 23.

Postby Experimental » April 10th, 2017, 5:15 pm

If all fully fit, I would go with something like this:

1. McGrath
2. Cronin
3. Furlong
4. Triggs
5. Toner
6. O'Brien
7. Leavy
8. Heaslip
9. McGrath
10. Sexton
11. Nacewa
12. Henshaw
13. Ringrose
14. Byrne
15. Kearney

16. Healy
17. Strauss
18. Bent
19. McCarthy
20. Van Der Flier
21. Gibson-Park
22. Kirchner
23. Carbery

Even tho McCarthy is leaving I still think hes better than the others at present, and Byrne must be given a chance to prove himself, I don't think hes been as much of a defensive liability as some have suggested, we need what he brings from the wing in attack. Kirchner has played very well this season, and I'll be sad to see him go, because he covers 15 and centre Id have him on the bench.
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Re: Leinster - First choice 23.

Postby Peg Leg » April 10th, 2017, 8:54 pm

Experimental wrote:If all fully fit, I would go with something like this:

1. McGrath
2. Cronin
3. Furlong
4. Triggs
5. Toner
6. O'Brien
7. Leavy
8. Heaslip
9. McGrath
10. Sexton
11. Nacewa
12. Henshaw
13. Ringrose
14. Byrne
15. Kearney

16. Healy
17. Strauss
18. Bent
19. McCarthy
20. Van Der Flier
21. Gibson-Park
22. Kirchner
23. Carbery

Even tho McCarthy is leaving I still think hes better than the others at present, and Byrne must be given a chance to prove himself, I don't think hes been as much of a defensive liability as some have suggested, we need what he brings from the wing in attack. Kirchner has played very well this season, and I'll be sad to see him go, because he covers 15 and centre Id have him on the bench.

Good team, would have to be a horses for courses pick between Conan & JVdF. Would have RO'L ahead of Zane though. Carberry covers FB and RO'L covers centre/wing.
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Re: Leinster - First choice 23.

Postby BlueBlue » April 11th, 2017, 10:45 am

I think fans are far too concerned about 1st choice players, 1st choice 23. Its irrelevant in the modern pro game. You need 35 players, any 23 out of that number need to do the job. And you need to tack on about 8 more who are on there way to proving they can be counted in that 35. That's why Leinster can pick up 20 points from a possible 20 during the 6N period, that's why any 23 players of that 35 are the best players the province can produce, because the competition brought about by these greater numbers pushes each player, they have to compete for the Jersey, and they have to compete to be in a position to lay claim to a jersey.

The bigger question for Leinster is how to keep all of these players wanting to stay and play for Leinster.

1st 23 irrelevant.
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Re: Leinster - First choice 23.

Postby Oldschool » April 11th, 2017, 4:49 pm

BlueBlue wrote:I think fans are far too concerned about 1st choice players, 1st choice 23. Its irrelevant in the modern pro game. You need 35 players, any 23 out of that number need to do the job. And you need to tack on about 8 more who are on there way to proving they can be counted in that 35. That's why Leinster can pick up 20 points from a possible 20 during the 6N period, that's why any 23 players of that 35 are the best players the province can produce, because the competition brought about by these greater numbers pushes each player, they have to compete for the Jersey, and they have to compete to be in a position to lay claim to a jersey.

The bigger question for Leinster is how to keep all of these players wanting to stay and play for Leinster.

1st 23 irrelevant.

It's a fair bet Clerment would disagree with you.
Pretty sure that what Leo considers to be his 1st choice 23 will be pretty relevant for them.
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Re: Leinster - First choice 23.

Postby ronk » April 11th, 2017, 7:15 pm

The more quality you have in depth, the more fluid your 23.

Take hooker as an example. We have 3 senior hookers and a few other good young players and they all bring something different. The 3 all play and the depth order changes a bit over the season, but it doesn't mean that Leo flips a coin for the big matches.
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Re: Leinster - First choice 23.

Postby BlueBlue » April 12th, 2017, 5:48 pm

Oldschool wrote:
BlueBlue wrote:I think fans are far too concerned about 1st choice players, 1st choice 23. Its irrelevant in the modern pro game. You need 35 players, any 23 out of that number need to do the job. And you need to tack on about 8 more who are on there way to proving they can be counted in that 35. That's why Leinster can pick up 20 points from a possible 20 during the 6N period, that's why any 23 players of that 35 are the best players the province can produce, because the competition brought about by these greater numbers pushes each player, they have to compete for the Jersey, and they have to compete to be in a position to lay claim to a jersey.

The bigger question for Leinster is how to keep all of these players wanting to stay and play for Leinster.

1st 23 irrelevant.

It's a fair bet Clerment would disagree with you.
Pretty sure that what Leo considers to be his 1st choice 23 will be pretty relevant for them.


Not really, Heaslip would be in this so called 1st 23, are Clermont going to do a lot of prep work on him or Jack Conan / Ruddock. I think Clermont will do what all teams do, concentrate on the 23 that will be playing.

Of course there is also a big white elephant in the room, perhaps you should consider. Clermont aren't responsible for the health and competiveness of Club Leinster. Leinster on the other hand are, and every coaching set up is interested in player depth , another words over the course of a season, can they continually put out a competitive 23 players, not my same 23 fav players. If you asked Leo if he would prefer 23 1st choice players, or 40 players that he could rotate while still being competitive over the course of a season, we all know what he and every other coach would say. So that brings me back to the point I made. Only fans worry about 1st choice 23's

Joe Schmidt is absolutely traumatised by the last would cup, where he lost 5 of the players that were in his list of 5 players I can not do without, he's on a mission to have player depth for the next world cup, that goes beyond a 1st choice 23.
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Re: Leinster - First choice 23.

Postby BlueBlue » April 12th, 2017, 5:49 pm

ronk wrote:The more quality you have in depth, the more fluid your 23.

Take hooker as an example. We have 3 senior hookers and a few other good young players and they all bring something different. The 3 all play and the depth order changes a bit over the season, but it doesn't mean that Leo flips a coin for the big matches.


agreed.
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