Pro 12 Semi-final vs Scarlets

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Re: Pro 12 Semi-final vs Scarlets

Postby LeRouxIsPHat » May 22nd, 2017, 1:20 pm

desperado wrote:To me the tactics/gameplan we started with was more appropriate to chasing a BP win. A 3-0 victory would have done it. There was little variation, tactics were hi risk and Scarlets had us well read; which showed in that it took an excellent move to break their line. The playing it tight piece should have been employed from the start is my point. Second half is too late. Why didn't we use our supposed dominance upfront early to suck the life out of them. They have a serious set of backs and we presented them with targets all day long. How often were they actually retreating in defence vs meeting us behind the gainline. You would think that playing it tight 15 v 15 and loosening it up when 15 v 14 would make more sense. It's going to be a long summer of regret.


I dunno, I felt we created quite a lot of chances in the first half an hour or so. Thought our problems were more to do with the mistakes we made and how bad our defence was.

But then in the second half we barely got going. We really struggled to break them down and make any ground at all. The try came nearly 25 mins into the second half and even that was from a lineout mistake from them and they were retreating the whole time.

I don't think you're wrong to say we should have taken them on up front more to begin with and we certainly forced some passes wide when a short ball was needed but overall I don't think the approach we went with initially was wrong either. Jack and Luke are better around the fringes than their replacements too, don't think that helped when we already had a second row not suited to pick and goes.
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Re: Pro 12 Semi-final vs Scarlets

Postby leinsterforever » May 22nd, 2017, 3:34 pm

Dave Cahill wrote:I think it's a flawed assumption to make to assume that the team would be capable of carrying out the tactics appropriate to this game. The tactical approach didn't matter because the mental approach was wrong. This team is not prepared properly to deal with adversity and has failed to do so, pretty much, all season


The team probably isn't where it needs to be mentally, but I think it's mostly just that Leinster's technical failings become more apparent the more pressure the opposition manage to exert. The problems are underlying, but aren't in evidence against 14-man Montpellier, or a disillusioned Northampton. When we face a good, clued-in team like Scarlets, the lack of accuracy across the board - ruck clearouts, passing, running lines, line out - become apparent.
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Re: Pro 12 Semi-final vs Scarlets

Postby simonokeeffe » May 22nd, 2017, 3:41 pm

the one I felt was really odd was just a lack of supporting players for our rucks, ball carriers were repeatedly isolated for no reason

dont know whether that was a lack of on field leadership or what?
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Re: Pro 12 Semi-final vs Scarlets

Postby Dexter » May 22nd, 2017, 4:41 pm

An example of how the Scarlets were really switched on: one of the quickest conversions ever after the Shingler try which seemed to come from a forward pass. Quick thinking by Patchell, which I don't think would have happened if it was Leinster in a similar situation.
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Re: Pro 12 Semi-final vs Scarlets

Postby LeinsterLeader » May 22nd, 2017, 4:57 pm

Dexter wrote:An example of how the Scarlets were really switched on: one of the quickest conversions ever after the Shingler try which seemed to come from a forward pass. Quick thinking by Patchell, which I don't think would have happened if it was Leinster in a similar situation.

Also, look at the way their back 3 defended. The Luke McGrath break should definitely have been a try, but it was a sensational try saving tackle from their guy (compare it with JGP's effort) and then an even better turn over from the 15 (I'm not convinced he was totally legal, supporting his body with and all, but it was so audacious he deserved any benefit). Again (and I really hate doing this) compare that with the pedestrian defending for their first try.

All very disappointing. :(
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Re: Pro 12 Semi-final vs Scarlets

Postby Dexter » May 22nd, 2017, 5:05 pm

LeinsterLeader wrote:
Dexter wrote:An example of how the Scarlets were really switched on: one of the quickest conversions ever after the Shingler try which seemed to come from a forward pass. Quick thinking by Patchell, which I don't think would have happened if it was Leinster in a similar situation.

Also, look at the way their back 3 defended. The Luke McGrath break should definitely have been a try, but it was a sensational try saving tackle from their guy (compare it with JGP's effort) and then an even better turn over from the 15 (I'm not convinced he was totally legal, supporting his body with and all, but it was so audacious he deserved any benefit). Again (and I really hate doing this) compare that with the pedestrian defending for their first try.

All very disappointing. :(

Yep, I just cooked up some courage to watch the very brief youtube highlights on the Pro12 channel. Very, very grim viewing of the defending.
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Re: Pro 12 Semi-final vs Scarlets

Postby LeinsterLeader » May 22nd, 2017, 5:17 pm

Dexter wrote:
LeinsterLeader wrote:
Dexter wrote:An example of how the Scarlets were really switched on: one of the quickest conversions ever after the Shingler try which seemed to come from a forward pass. Quick thinking by Patchell, which I don't think would have happened if it was Leinster in a similar situation.

Also, look at the way their back 3 defended. The Luke McGrath break should definitely have been a try, but it was a sensational try saving tackle from their guy (compare it with JGP's effort) and then an even better turn over from the 15 (I'm not convinced he was totally legal, supporting his body with and all, but it was so audacious he deserved any benefit). Again (and I really hate doing this) compare that with the pedestrian defending for their first try.

All very disappointing. :(

Yep, I just cooked up some courage to watch the very brief youtube highlights on the Pro12 channel. Very, very grim viewing of the defending.

You're a braver man then me Dexter. It'll be a few weeks before I'm ready for another viewing. Maybe not even then. Might go into denial and pretend it never happened :?

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Re: Pro 12 Semi-final vs Scarlets

Postby OTT » May 22nd, 2017, 5:19 pm

LeinsterLeader wrote:Also, look at the way their back 3 defended. The Luke McGrath break should definitely have been a try, but it was a sensational try saving tackle from their guy (compare it with JGP's effort) and then an even better turn over from the 15 (I'm not convinced he was totally legal, supporting his body with and all, but it was so audacious he deserved any benefit). Again (and I really hate doing this) compare that with the pedestrian defending for their first try.

All very disappointing. :(



I agree with the sentiments on this about the Scarlets hunger but the particular play you are talking about should have been a penalty and yellow for Liam Williams. He comes in the side of the ruck to turn the ball over or more accurately to kill the Leinster attack. I watched it back on SKY and was shocked that Barnes and Horgan said he came back around from his side he didn't and couldn't have from where he was, kudos for getting away with it but he should have been penalised and binned for a professional foul. The Scarlets were great and we were piss poor but that was a huge call which seemed to have just been accepted on the pitch by the players (which feeds into us not being at the necessary level of competition).


EDIT: Here is the play. Williams is about to get hands on the ball, he is clearly not through the gate and the Scarlet's player who has not released Luke on the ground (another peno?) has formed the ruck already. Big call that we did not seem to bother contesting.

https://youtu.be/HPxAPv7MaYM?t=83
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Re: Pro 12 Semi-final vs Scarlets

Postby LeinsterLeader » May 22nd, 2017, 5:28 pm

OTT wrote:
LeinsterLeader wrote:Also, look at the way their back 3 defended. The Luke McGrath break should definitely have been a try, but it was a sensational try saving tackle from their guy (compare it with JGP's effort) and then an even better turn over from the 15 (I'm not convinced he was totally legal, supporting his body with and all, but it was so audacious he deserved any benefit). Again (and I really hate doing this) compare that with the pedestrian defending for their first try.

All very disappointing. :(



I agree with the sentiments on this about the Scarlets hunger but the particular play you are talking about should have been a penalty and yellow for Liam Williams. He comes in the side of the ruck to turn the ball over or more accurately to kill the Leinster attack. I watched it back on SKY and was shocked that Barnes and Horgan said he came back around from his side he didn't and couldn't have from where he was, kudos for getting away with it but he should have been penalised and binned for a professional foul. The Scarlets were great and we were piss poor but that was a huge call which seemed to have just been accepted on the pitch by the players (which feeds into us not being at the necessary level of competition).


Technically I'm sure you're right, but it's an area I try not to get Pi$$ed off about because it has become so acceptable now for players to come in from the side (or at least not to come in through the gate) whether clearing a ruck or trying to steal a ball, that I'm more surprised when it's given to honest. At very least it's at an such an acceptable level with referees now that it's worth players in certain desperate scenarios (like this one) risking it and hoping to get away with.
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Re: Pro 12 Semi-final vs Scarlets

Postby Paulie Walnuts » May 22nd, 2017, 7:34 pm

Was so disappointed after last Friday, whatever about me, I think it will take the players a lot longer to recover from the systems failure. Jonny took that knock right in front of us and it was clear he wasn't right after that. Why didn't the coaching team make a call far earlier to replace him - a 70% JS didn't react to the speedy Scarlets defense and kept shovelling predictable ball to the centres - if he was 100% he would have varied his game. (Note how Ross Byrne played lots of great balls in behind Scarlets in the league game).
Apparently the Scarlets coaching ticket held a 10 minutes conference at halftime to decide tactics for the second half. They then laid out instructions for the team over a vital 3-4 minutes. The lack of reactive coaching nous on our side is now a real worry. Let's hope we learn all of the lessons about competing at the championship end of the season.
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Re: Pro 12 Semi-final vs Scarlets

Postby fourthirtythree » May 22nd, 2017, 8:00 pm

To have a hope of getting a big call like that your way, I think you need to have our players supporting quicker. They got a lot of dubious calls like that because there was no Leinster player around to keep them honest.
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Re: Pro 12 Semi-final vs Scarlets

Postby leinsterforever » May 22nd, 2017, 9:32 pm

OTT wrote:
LeinsterLeader wrote:Also, look at the way their back 3 defended. The Luke McGrath break should definitely have been a try, but it was a sensational try saving tackle from their guy (compare it with JGP's effort) and then an even better turn over from the 15 (I'm not convinced he was totally legal, supporting his body with and all, but it was so audacious he deserved any benefit). Again (and I really hate doing this) compare that with the pedestrian defending for their first try.

All very disappointing. :(



I agree with the sentiments on this about the Scarlets hunger but the particular play you are talking about should have been a penalty and yellow for Liam Williams. He comes in the side of the ruck to turn the ball over or more accurately to kill the Leinster attack. I watched it back on SKY and was shocked that Barnes and Horgan said he came back around from his side he didn't and couldn't have from where he was, kudos for getting away with it but he should have been penalised and binned for a professional foul. The Scarlets were great and we were piss poor but that was a huge call which seemed to have just been accepted on the pitch by the players (which feeds into us not being at the necessary level of competition).


EDIT: Here is the play. Williams is about to get hands on the ball, he is clearly not through the gate and the Scarlet's player who has not released Luke on the ground (another peno?) has formed the ruck already. Big call that we did not seem to bother contesting.

https://youtu.be/HPxAPv7MaYM?t=83


There's no ruck formed before Williams gets in on the ball because there's no Leinster player there. Williams is pushing the boundaries of entering through the gate, but I wouldn't have too many complaints about the incident overall. He might have got pinged for not going far enough around on his side before coming in but it's not one I'd feel especially hard done by over.
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Re: Pro 12 Semi-final vs Scarlets

Postby desperado » May 22nd, 2017, 10:54 pm

Dave Cahill wrote:I think it's a flawed assumption to make to assume that the team would be capable of carrying out the tactics appropriate to this game. The tactical approach didn't matter because the mental approach was wrong. This team is not prepared properly to deal with adversity and has failed to do so, pretty much, all season


I take your point Dave; but you can have all the mental toughness in the world - but if your tactics are mindless; you're also on a loser. I wonder is McNulty still employed (or are we just getting Mick Gavin to have chat's with the management - as reported before the ECC semi).
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Re: Pro 12 Semi-final vs Scarlets

Postby BlueWheels » May 23rd, 2017, 2:26 pm

LeinsterLeader wrote:You're a braver man then me Dexter. It'll be a few weeks before I'm ready for another viewing. Maybe not even then. Might go into denial and pretend it never happened :?

I call for a do over, who's with me? :D #WeWerentReady



I know what you mean.... I think I'll file it away beside a certain April 2006 semi-final that "Never Happened" :oops: :oops: :oops:
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Re: Pro 12 Semi-final vs Scarlets

Postby hugonaut » May 24th, 2017, 7:43 am

Good review of the game by Gerry Thornley: http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/g ... -1.3092160

Couple of days distance to put it into perspective and give a balanced opinion, which helps.
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Re: Pro 12 Semi-final vs Scarlets

Postby Dexter » May 24th, 2017, 9:32 am

Gordon D'Arcy once again produces a much more interesting article than anything else written so far, IMO.
http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/g ... -1.3093907
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Re: Pro 12 Semi-final vs Scarlets

Postby Logorrhea » May 24th, 2017, 9:52 am

I don't get how so many people are pushing to blame the coaches. Thornley paints the picture pretty well for me, I've no idea how the coaches fix these kind of errors aside from using the bench, however the players that came off the bench weren't exactly error free either. There were numerous factors but the turnovers and the manner in which the Scarlets exploited them, were the difference for me.

Even by that moment, he [Johnny Sexton] had been as culpable as anyone for the early handling errors which prevented Leinster applying pressure on the Scarlets in the first quarter and so making home advantage tell. His forward pass to Isa Nacewa ruled out a try after what had been a bright start, before he fired the ball at James Tracy and then knocked on a pass from Luke McGrath.

This was followed by Josh van der Flier knocking on an offload by Joey Carbery, before Robbie Henshaw did likewise with a pass off a lineout from van der Flier. When they got this move right in the 23rd minute it led to the wonderfully concocted try by the excellent Garry Ringrose in the high point of Leinster’s night. But before that, Hayden Triggs failed to hold on to a high pass from Luke McGrath; a sixth handling error by which point only 14 minutes had elapsed.
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Re: Pro 12 Semi-final vs Scarlets

Postby riocard911 » May 24th, 2017, 10:07 am

Dexter wrote:Gordon D'Arcy once again produces a much more interesting article than anything else written so far, IMO.
http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/g ... -1.3093907


I was very much looking forward to reading Darce's take on the fiasco that was Leinster managing to be the first team ever to lose a Pro 12 semi-final in front of their home fans and was left disappointed and frustrated, as essentially he let the team and the management collectively off the hook by ascribing their failure to show up against the Scarlets - 29 turnovers!!!!! - to the demands of the evil IRFU, which is absolute nonsense, IMO! Come back, Matt O'Connor! All is forgiven!!!
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Re: Pro 12 Semi-final vs Scarlets

Postby Dave Cahill » May 24th, 2017, 10:20 am

I don't think its a matter of blaming coaches or blaming players - its not a binary thing. Certainly the coaching team need to review what they are doing, this is the second year running where the team has been sent out for the final, knockout, game of the season with the wrong tactical approach - an approach that did not change in line with the changing circumstances.

Whether the approach was right or wrong, the players certainly didn't come close to executing it, making error after error. They also didn't 'think on their feet' and react themselves to changing vista in front of them.

A lot of praise has gone to Leo and Stuart this season - much of it deserved - but if you're going to take the plaudits when things are going well, then you also have to take the brickbats when things go wrong.

On the other hand, we keep hearing about how this is a 'player-led group' and how they have taken leadership and responsibility for the club - so when the team finishes the season looking directionless and devoid of leadership, well they can take some of those brickbats too.
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Re: Pro 12 Semi-final vs Scarlets

Postby Hippo » May 24th, 2017, 10:27 am

Dexter wrote:Gordon D'Arcy once again produces a much more interesting article than anything else written so far, IMO.
http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/g ... -1.3093907


Atrociously written article, especially at the outset, but I think he's right (and echoing DC here) that some of these players need to learn to win when things aren't going their way.
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