Comparing Leo to MOC

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Re: Comparing Leo to MOC

Postby LENSTA » May 21st, 2017, 11:54 am

Leo's lack of a mean streak is very worrying. Look where sticking with out of form or injured stalwart-players, gets you, basically with fans calling for your head. JSex great as he can be, was awful against the Scarlets. By the end JSex had descended into tantrum mode and was actually undermining the performance of everyone around him. Leo actually would have done him a favour getting him off earlier.

Good managers, rarely speak to players, so when they do speak, the players listen. Good managers keep players on point by substituting or dropping them early as possible when they are not playing well. That includes in the first half. He also keeps them on point by having 3 players contesting every position. If he doesn't have 3 viable players for each position, then he works hard to develop/buy the missing options.

Managers don't make players play well, players looking over at the bench and seeing hungry talented subs, chomping at the bit for a playing opportunity, makes players go above and beyond. Especially, if they know they will be ruthlessly dropped, no matter what their status in the team.

Brian Cody of Kilkenny employed the above tactics to turn Kilkenny hurling from sleeping giant in the 90's that regularly slipped up against inferior opposition to a powerhouse of hurling in the Noughties and later. The Kilkenny players didn't even see the opposition they were playing against, they just looked over at their own bench and grimaced. The days of looking at your inferior opponent and finding it hard to get motivated, were over.

Brian Cody is ruthless... is Leo? He was as a player, I hope he finds it as a manager soon.
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Re: Comparing Leo to MOC

Postby simonokeeffe » May 21st, 2017, 12:02 pm

Competition is great and necessary but how many world class outhalves can we (be expected to) have?

Dropping Toner was ruthless, could say the same about the treatment of a fair few of the forwards

This kind of segues into frustration over the hookers/lineouts
When he spreads his legs like that youd need dynamite or the Highland Light Infantry to shift him.
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Re: Comparing Leo to MOC

Postby LeRouxIsPHat » May 21st, 2017, 12:06 pm

I was thinking about that too but then remembered that he cut Rossy, dropped Dev for Friday's game, dropped Adam for the Clermont semi (although admittedly he's not a big character to drop) and there's been other calls too. Not something I'm worried about although Johnny seems to be a special case for everyone.
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Re: Comparing Leo to MOC

Postby LENSTA » May 21st, 2017, 12:18 pm

Those are good indications that he is getting more comfortable making difficult selection decisions. Intra-game though, he hasn't made any big substitutions early in a game or at all. He would benefit from making an example of a big name player with an early substitution. This would send a message to the rest of the players that no one is un-droppable.
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Re: Comparing Leo to MOC

Postby Blueberry » May 21st, 2017, 12:26 pm

We are light years away from the days of Moc but management has (Leo et al) has some questions to answer across this season.

Without getting into a laborious process of examining every decision made this year I will use three examples as an illustration of decisions that baffled me and I believe cost us potential silverware or a final or two at least.

i) Starting an out of form Strauss v Clermont instead of Cronin I just can't understand in any shape or form. Strauss was very poor.

ii) Playing Carbery @ 10 v Ulster again I couldn't understand. He was always going to start @ 15 in the semi and Sexton needed game time badly. If he was in anyway injured you start Byrne and leave Carbery at 15 to give him practice there. Stupid decision.

Iii) Not hooking Sexton in the semi after his knock was crazy, played like a drain for the rest of the game. Stupid.

Fine margins but three very poor decisions all with Serious repercussions.
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Re: Comparing Leo to MOC

Postby LENSTA » May 21st, 2017, 12:30 pm

simonokeeffe wrote:Competition is great and necessary but how many world class outhalves can we (be expected to) have?

Dropping Toner was ruthless, could say the same about the treatment of a fair few of the forwards

This kind of segues into frustration over the hookers/lineouts



I suppose my point is that he wasn't world class against the Scarlets. Why not move Carbery in from 15 where he wasn't getting involved or even bring on Byrne (personally not a fan of Byrne, seems more 'good-face' than good player so far). Sexton gained nothing from being left on, while the other 2 would have at least banked some good experience at 10 as a worst case. Best case... they could have made names for themselves as viable alternatives. There was no downside to making a change.

Manager's being beholden to one player is the greatest mistake a manager can make. E.g. RWC 2009... ROG was playing terrible, EOS had to keep picking him because he had never developed a viable replacement. Injury or loss of form humble even the greatest players over time.
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Re: Comparing Leo to MOC

Postby riocard911 » May 21st, 2017, 12:35 pm

LENSTA wrote:Those are good indications that he is getting more comfortable making difficult selection decisions. Intra-game though, he hasn't made any big substitutions early in a game or at all. He would benefit from making an example of a big name player with an early substitution. This would send a message to the rest of the players that no one is un-droppable.


Éist! Éist! I found an incident in the RWC 2015 quite telling about Steve Hansen's approach to coaching. In the first half of NZ's group match against Argentina, in which the latter were the better team, Milner Skudder dropped a pass on the wing with the try line beckoning about five metres away. He was subbed immediately - gone. He never dropped any passes for the rest of the tournament after that.
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Re: Comparing Leo to MOC

Postby LeRouxIsPHat » May 21st, 2017, 12:41 pm

LENSTA wrote:Those are good indications that he is getting more comfortable making difficult selection decisions. Intra-game though, he hasn't made any big substitutions early in a game or at all. He would benefit from making an example of a big name player with an early substitution. This would send a message to the rest of the players that no one is un-droppable.


Has he needed to? We were having a great season up until Friday.
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Re: Comparing Leo to MOC

Postby LENSTA » May 21st, 2017, 12:44 pm

riocard911 wrote:
LENSTA wrote:Those are good indications that he is getting more comfortable making difficult selection decisions. Intra-game though, he hasn't made any big substitutions early in a game or at all. He would benefit from making an example of a big name player with an early substitution. This would send a message to the rest of the players that no one is un-droppable.


Éist! Éist! I found an incident in the RWC 2015 quite telling about Steve Hansen's approach to coaching. In the first half of NZ's group match against Argentina, in which the latter were the better team, Milner Skudder dropped a pass on the wing with the try line beckoning about five metres away. He was subbed immediately - gone. He never dropped any passes for the rest of the tournament after that.


Excellent example of what I am talking about. Brian Cody often subbed players in the first half. It is not just the player involved that is effected, it ripples through the whole team. Every player immediately ups their performance, lest they be making the walk of shame themselves. This is a hugely effective tactic when your team is not up for it, for whatever reasons. Usually because they think their opposition is inferior and the game is in the bag.

But sometimes it is because they are about to go on a British Lions tour.
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Re: Comparing Leo to MOC

Postby LENSTA » May 21st, 2017, 12:53 pm

LeRouxIsPHat wrote:
LENSTA wrote:Those are good indications that he is getting more comfortable making difficult selection decisions. Intra-game though, he hasn't made any big substitutions early in a game or at all. He would benefit from making an example of a big name player with an early substitution. This would send a message to the rest of the players that no one is un-droppable.


Has he needed to? We were having a great season up until Friday.



Possibly true, but If I was him, I would be looking for the earliest opportunity to sub a big name next season in the first half of a game where we are losing to inferior opposition, even if it wasn't justified on that player. Thereby sending a message to everyone... players, fans and media that a new standard is in effect. As I said in another post, it ripples through the team, and can completely change a teams attitude and performance.
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Re: Comparing Leo to MOC

Postby wixfjord » May 21st, 2017, 12:57 pm

A lot of scoreboard journalism and outcome bias going on here, as usual.
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Re: Comparing Leo to MOC

Postby Raydollard » May 21st, 2017, 1:04 pm

I have called Sexton a crock in posts ever since he returned from France. Why not get behind Carbery or do we want to undermine his progress as an outhalf. We have no outhalf now as a consequence.
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Re: Comparing Leo to MOC

Postby LENSTA » May 21st, 2017, 1:09 pm

wixfjord wrote:A lot of scoreboard journalism and outcome bias going on here, as usual.



Well it is a forum. You gotta let us do a little Monday morning quarter backing :wink:

I realise it is Sunday... but no one says Sunday morning QB'ing
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Re: Comparing Leo to MOC

Postby OTT » May 21st, 2017, 1:19 pm

Johnny Sexton was making the kids in the stands cry, the people in the terrace were afraid to open their mouths because of him. The other players were afraid to catch the ball and execute basic rugby skills like rucking, kicking, passing, tackling etc because of Johnny Sexton.

Or maybe Johnny Sexton had a bad game like the rest of the team?

We love to laud people when things are going well. Sexton sets the standards blah blah blah....Lancaster has brought our unstructured play on ten fold blah blah blah....we fail to live up to our standards and these guys are then the guys who are the problem. FFS this forum has turned into a caricature of a rugby forum.

We were sh!t on Friday, we seem to have managed the last month very badly, we were so flat for such a big game, lets talk about that and question what has gone wrong instead of taking personal cheap shots at two people who have been a big part in getting us back on the road to playing what we describe as the Leinster way. Our disappointment is such because this group have heightened our expectations 10 fold this season.

Probably not the right thread for this but they seem to all amalgamate into the same rubbish.
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Re: Comparing Leo to MOC

Postby Blueberry » May 21st, 2017, 1:26 pm

Look balance of course is required and as always since we are all hurting (just put two final tickets up for sale....)things get ott. Criticism of Sexton has got a little ott, he is a world class player and to me looked like that knock early in the first half had a serious effect. He did play like a drain for the rest of the game, wasn't goal kicking and even his movement looked laboured and he was constantly drifting across the back line avoiding contact.

Now if I and my 12 year old son can see this from the back of the South stand why oh why did 'the management' not make the right call.

That to me is the question and can we leave the J10 bashing out.
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Re: Comparing Leo to MOC

Postby wixfjord » May 21st, 2017, 1:31 pm

LENSTA wrote:
wixfjord wrote:A lot of scoreboard journalism and outcome bias going on here, as usual.



Well it is a forum. You gotta let us do a little Monday morning quarter backing :wink:

I realise it is Sunday... but no one says Sunday morning QB'ing


It's far more likely that Leo decided to keep Sexton on because he's one of the best and most experienced players in our squad though rather than him being 'intimidated' by him or other such nonsense.

Because we lost, many are trying to find a narrative and to fit bits of information into that narrative, while avoiding anything that disconfirms it. For example - Lancaster is a loser and Henry's influence is wearing off, or Leo is a conservative coach, or Ross Byrne would've changed the game for us.
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Re: Comparing Leo to MOC

Postby LENSTA » May 21st, 2017, 1:46 pm

wixfjord wrote:
LENSTA wrote:
wixfjord wrote:A lot of scoreboard journalism and outcome bias going on here, as usual.



Well it is a forum. You gotta let us do a little Monday morning quarter backing :wink:

I realise it is Sunday... but no one says Sunday morning QB'ing


It's far more likely that Leo decided to keep Sexton on because he's one of the best and most experienced players in our squad though rather than him being 'intimidated' by him or other such nonsense.

Because we lost, many are trying to find a narrative and to fit bits of information into that narrative, while avoiding anything that disconfirms it. For example - Lancaster is a loser and Henry's influence is wearing off, or Leo is a conservative coach, or Ross Byrne would've changed the game for us.


Why he kept him on is irrelevant for me, the fact that he kept him on is more worrying. Neither the team nor Sexton benefitted from him being left on. Your comments on narrative must be from another thread, the game thread perhaps?
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Re: Comparing Leo to MOC

Postby Peg Leg » May 21st, 2017, 2:28 pm

LeRouxIsPHat wrote:
LENSTA wrote:Those are good indications that he is getting more comfortable making difficult selection decisions. Intra-game though, he hasn't made any big substitutions early in a game or at all. He would benefit from making an example of a big name player with an early substitution. This would send a message to the rest of the players that no one is un-droppable.


Has he needed to? We were having a great season up until Friday.

Our last 3 league games have not impressed anyone. I have always questioned the idea of setting up a team to beat the oppo defence when in a rich vein of form, Instead I believed that you should trust your plays and ability to bring your game to the oppo. For me the semi looked like we were just expecting the gaps to appear and our ball protection was lessened by the desire to be the player to provide some "go forward".
I felt that was a game screaming out for Ross Byrne's precision. We were lining up deep to provide some space with Johny on, so RB wouldn't have changed the shape. Not using the space behind a 14 man blitz was nuts.
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Re: Comparing Leo to MOC

Postby Peg Leg » May 21st, 2017, 2:30 pm

Raydollard wrote:I have called Sexton a crock in posts ever since he returned from France. Why not get behind Carbery or do we want to undermine his progress as an outhalf. We have no outhalf now as a consequence.

Stopped clocks etc.
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Re: Comparing Leo to MOC

Postby Peg Leg » May 21st, 2017, 2:33 pm

Blueberry wrote:Look balance of course is required and as always since we are all hurting.... things get ott. Criticism of Sexton has got a little ott


OTT has got a little ott
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