Comparing Leo to MOC

A forum for true blue Leinster supporters to talk about and support their team

Moderator: moderators

Re: Comparing Leo to MOC

Postby Oldschool » May 21st, 2017, 3:22 pm

Dave Cahill wrote:Ross Byrne has been Leinster's best outhalf this season.

9 times out of ten, 9 coaches out of ten would take 50% of Johnny Sexton over 100% of pretty much anyone else.

So, was the delay in substituting Sexton wrong? In hindsight, yes it was.

Was it understandable? Entirely.

9 times out of 10 they'd be wrong.
Denial is the problem.
Mirror, Mirror on the Wall who's the greatest player of them all? It is Drico your majesty.
User avatar
Oldschool
Devin Toner
 
Posts: 9912
Joined: March 27th, 2008, 2:10 pm

Re: Comparing Leo to MOC

Postby leinsterforever » May 21st, 2017, 3:22 pm

Two sh!t performances in a row with two different 10s. Blaming the outhalf, or any one player, is to fail to see the bigger picture
leinsterforever
Graduate
 
Posts: 651
Joined: March 18th, 2015, 2:20 am

Re: Comparing Leo to MOC

Postby hugonaut » May 21st, 2017, 3:43 pm

leinsterforever wrote:Two sh!t performances in a row with two different 10s. Blaming the outhalf, or any one player, is to fail to see the bigger picture


What's the bigger picture?
User avatar
hugonaut
Rob Kearney
 
Posts: 4396
Joined: May 5th, 2009, 7:44 pm

Re: Comparing Leo to MOC

Postby Peg Leg » May 21st, 2017, 3:54 pm

hugonaut wrote:
leinsterforever wrote:Two sh!t performances in a row with two different 10s. Blaming the outhalf, or any one player, is to fail to see the bigger picture


What's the bigger picture?

One does not simply bandy about a cliche this forum!
"It was Mrs O'Leary's cow"
Daniel Sullivan
User avatar
Peg Leg
Devin Toner
 
Posts: 7978
Joined: February 1st, 2010, 6:08 pm
Location: Procrastinasia

Re: Comparing Leo to MOC

Postby Dave Cahill » May 21st, 2017, 4:02 pm

hugonaut wrote:
leinsterforever wrote:Two sh!t performances in a row with two different 10s. Blaming the outhalf, or any one player, is to fail to see the bigger picture


What's the bigger picture?


We won one away game against the top six, we drew against Castres and lost in Ulster - two games with massive strategic significance if not immediate importance. We scored a squillion tries all season, but only one in the game that would have put us top of the league and only one in the semifinal.

We are not ruthless enough yet, physically or mentally - on or off the pitch.
I have Bumbleflex
User avatar
Dave Cahill
Gordon D'Arcy
 
Posts: 20481
Joined: January 24th, 2006, 4:32 pm
Location: None of your damn business

Re: Comparing Leo to MOC

Postby Raydollard » May 21st, 2017, 4:37 pm

Stopped clocks anyone.
Raydollard
Graduate
 
Posts: 609
Joined: September 19th, 2010, 12:03 pm

Re: Comparing Leo to MOC

Postby wixfjord » May 21st, 2017, 4:40 pm

LENSTA wrote:
Why he kept him on is irrelevant for me, the fact that he kept him on is more worrying. Neither the team nor Sexton benefitted from him being left on. Your comments on narrative must be from another thread, the game thread perhaps?


Sorry but that doesn't make sense.

No my comments are pertaining to this thread also, and particularly the idea that our coach was intimidated by a player, which seems to have been concocted from nowhere.
wixfjord
Girvan Dempsey
 
Posts: 2964
Joined: April 13th, 2009, 1:00 pm

Re: Comparing Leo to MOC

Postby Gearzbox2 » May 21st, 2017, 4:48 pm

Blueberry wrote:We are light years away from the days of Moc but management has (Leo et al) has some questions to answer across this season.

Without getting into a laborious process of examining every decision made this year I will use three examples as an illustration of decisions that baffled me and I believe cost us potential silverware or a final or two at least.

i) Starting an out of form Strauss v Clermont instead of Cronin I just can't understand in any shape or form. Strauss was very poor.

ii) Playing Carbery @ 10 v Ulster again I couldn't understand. He was always going to start @ 15 in the semi and Sexton needed game time badly. If he was in anyway injured you start Byrne and leave Carbery at 15 to give him practice there. Stupid decision.

Iii) Not hooking Sexton in the semi after his knock was crazy, played like a drain for the rest of the game. Stupid.

Fine margins but three very poor decisions all with Serious repercussions.


Couldn't agree with you more on all those points
The Cronin/Strauss scenario was mind boggling...Cronin had come back and got motm against Ospreys and played well again against Connacht the following week but yet was dropped to bench for Strauss who had not played...crazy

Like you said Ross Byrne should've played 10 against Ulster if J10 wasn't goin to as Joey was always going to play 15 v Scarlets

And I'm starting to think what kind of power J10 and Isa wield in that place, both have been playing poorly and not regularly and I'm sorry but reps need to be put to one side for the better of the team
Gearzbox2
Bookworm
 
Posts: 168
Joined: November 7th, 2015, 7:38 pm

Re: Comparing Leo to MOC

Postby leinsterforever » May 21st, 2017, 5:04 pm

hugonaut wrote:
leinsterforever wrote:Two sh!t performances in a row with two different 10s. Blaming the outhalf, or any one player, is to fail to see the bigger picture


What's the bigger picture?


I'm hesitant to label Lancaster's coaching an issue, because I think it's fairly evident that the team is better with him than without him. However, I do have certain misgivings about the way his teams play. Can it be said that Leinster are technically excellent in any area? The lineout is sloppy. Maul and scrum are powerful, but possibly lack technique. Passing and running lines are often not sharp and honed enough. It's almost as if it's a quantity over quality approach. The stat for metres run is often off the charts, but does this translate to scores against good teams?

When I hear him talk, I sometimes think there's a lack of clarity in what Lancaster's saying. Contrast it with Eddie Jones's simple and precise soundbites
leinsterforever
Graduate
 
Posts: 651
Joined: March 18th, 2015, 2:20 am

Re: Comparing Leo to MOC

Postby LENSTA » May 21st, 2017, 5:44 pm

wixfjord wrote:
LENSTA wrote:
Why he kept him on is irrelevant for me, the fact that he kept him on is more worrying. Neither the team nor Sexton benefitted from him being left on. Your comments on narrative must be from another thread, the game thread perhaps?


Sorry but that doesn't make sense.

No my comments are pertaining to this thread also, and particularly the idea that our coach was intimidated by a player, which seems to have been concocted from nowhere.


Makes perfect sense to me. His rationale for not acting doesn't concern me. The fact that he didn't ruthlessly take action, is the issue for me.

I am confident/hopeful he will make the necessary adjustments next season.
#ScrapTheLions
User avatar
LENSTA
Knowledgeable
 
Posts: 265
Joined: October 4th, 2009, 11:38 pm

Re: Comparing Leo to MOC

Postby wixfjord » May 21st, 2017, 6:07 pm

LENSTA wrote:Makes perfect sense to me. His rationale for not acting doesn't concern me. The fact that he didn't ruthlessly take action, is the issue for me.

I am confident/hopeful he will make the necessary adjustments next season.


So you're disregarding the rationale for the decision and you wanted him to be ruthless for the sake of it?
Not following your logic here.
wixfjord
Girvan Dempsey
 
Posts: 2964
Joined: April 13th, 2009, 1:00 pm

Re: Comparing Leo to MOC

Postby LENSTA » May 21st, 2017, 6:17 pm

wixfjord wrote:
LENSTA wrote:Makes perfect sense to me. His rationale for not acting doesn't concern me. The fact that he didn't ruthlessly take action, is the issue for me.

I am confident/hopeful he will make the necessary adjustments next season.


So you're disregarding the rationale for the decision and you wanted him to be ruthless for the sake of it?
Not following your logic here.


The rationale could be any of a thousand reasons. Why bother trying to speculate on that. The point is he didn't act. Hopefully when the situation arises again, he will.

Substituting a player who is not playing well, is hardly taking action for the sake of it.
#ScrapTheLions
User avatar
LENSTA
Knowledgeable
 
Posts: 265
Joined: October 4th, 2009, 11:38 pm

Re: Comparing Leo to MOC

Postby Blueberry » May 21st, 2017, 6:31 pm

Gearzbox2 wrote:
Blueberry wrote:We are light years away from the days of Moc but management has (Leo et al) has some questions to answer across this season.

Without getting into a laborious process of examining every decision made this year I will use three examples as an illustration of decisions that baffled me and I believe cost us potential silverware or a final or two at least.

i) Starting an out of form Strauss v Clermont instead of Cronin I just can't understand in any shape or form. Strauss was very poor.

ii) Playing Carbery @ 10 v Ulster again I couldn't understand. He was always going to start @ 15 in the semi and Sexton needed game time badly. If he was in anyway injured you start Byrne and leave Carbery at 15 to give him practice there. Stupid decision.

Iii) Not hooking Sexton in the semi after his knock was crazy, played like a drain for the rest of the game. Stupid.

Fine margins but three very poor decisions all with Serious repercussions.


Couldn't agree with you more on all those points
The Cronin/Strauss scenario was mind boggling...Cronin had come back and got motm against Ospreys and played well again against Connacht the following week but yet was dropped to bench for Strauss who had not played...crazy

Like you said Ross Byrne should've played 10 against Ulster if J10 wasn't goin to as Joey was always going to play 15 v Scarlets

And I'm starting to think what kind of power J10 and Isa wield in that place, both have been playing poorly and not regularly and I'm sorry but reps need to be put to one side for the better of the team


Yup good point Cronin had been super the previous two games, looked sharp and dangerous, in fact the more I think about it starting Strauss v Clermont is beyond a poor call.
Blueberry
Beginner
 
Posts: 37
Joined: April 4th, 2017, 10:14 pm

Re: Comparing Leo to MOC

Postby wixfjord » May 21st, 2017, 7:48 pm

LENSTA wrote:
wixfjord wrote:
LENSTA wrote:Makes perfect sense to me. His rationale for not acting doesn't concern me. The fact that he didn't ruthlessly take action, is the issue for me.

I am confident/hopeful he will make the necessary adjustments next season.


So you're disregarding the rationale for the decision and you wanted him to be ruthless for the sake of it?
Not following your logic here.


The rationale could be any of a thousand reasons. Why bother trying to speculate on that. The point is he didn't act. Hopefully when the situation arises again, he will.

Substituting a player who is not playing well, is hardly taking action for the sake of it.


He did act. Making the decision to keep Sexton on isn't passive. He's also operating on inordinately more information than you or I.

Sexton might not've been playing well, but keeping one of your best players and biggest leaders on the pitch isn't an illogical choice, yet you're making it out to be a huge error and trying to say it's representative of Cullen's supposed 'lack of ruthlessness'.

That's outcome bias.

Also it seems Ross Byrne gets the better the less games he plays!
wixfjord
Girvan Dempsey
 
Posts: 2964
Joined: April 13th, 2009, 1:00 pm

Re: Comparing Leo to MOC

Postby LENSTA » May 21st, 2017, 9:24 pm

He did act. Making the decision to keep Sexton on isn't passive. He's also operating on inordinately more information than you or I.

Sexton might not've been playing well, but keeping one of your best players and biggest leaders on the pitch isn't an illogical choice, yet you're making it out to be a huge error and trying to say it's representative of Cullen's supposed 'lack of ruthlessness'.

That's outcome bias.

Also it seems Ross Byrne gets the better the less games he plays!


Haha, he took action! By NOT taking action! Hmm, ooookkkaayyyy. :D

It was an error (huge is your word) and it is representative of Leo's lack of ruthlessness. You can say that is outcome bias, but I thought Sexton should be subbed off early in the 2nd half when he kicked for position and put it straight into touch. The outcome only further emphasised what I was already thinking.
#ScrapTheLions
User avatar
LENSTA
Knowledgeable
 
Posts: 265
Joined: October 4th, 2009, 11:38 pm

Re: Comparing Leo to MOC

Postby wixfjord » May 21st, 2017, 10:04 pm

LENSTA wrote:
He did act. Making the decision to keep Sexton on isn't passive. He's also operating on inordinately more information than you or I.

Sexton might not've been playing well, but keeping one of your best players and biggest leaders on the pitch isn't an illogical choice, yet you're making it out to be a huge error and trying to say it's representative of Cullen's supposed 'lack of ruthlessness'.

That's outcome bias.

Also it seems Ross Byrne gets the better the less games he plays!


Haha, he took action! By NOT taking action! Hmm, ooookkkaayyyy. :D

It was an error (huge is your word) and it is representative of Leo's lack of ruthlessness. You can say that is outcome bias, but I thought Sexton should be subbed off early in the 2nd half when he kicked for position and put it straight into touch. The outcome only further emphasised what I was already thinking.


Yep. I explained what I mean, you ignored that bit.

I'd put more stead in Leo's opinion than any of ours, so whatever you or I think, as I said he has inordinately more information.

This narrative about him being afraid of Sexton is just bizarre to be honest.

As referenced above, the far more likely answer is he wanted to leave one of his best players and leaders on the pitch in the hope that his experience would pull the team through, rather than bringing in a rookie 10 with little experience at that level.

How would you describe him benching Toner? Isn't that ruthless? Or is that not counted because it doesn't fit your point?
wixfjord
Girvan Dempsey
 
Posts: 2964
Joined: April 13th, 2009, 1:00 pm

Re: Comparing Leo to MOC

Postby LENSTA » May 21st, 2017, 10:32 pm

Yep. I explained what I mean, you ignored that bit.

I'd put more stead in Leo's opinion than any of ours, so whatever you or I think, as I said he has inordinately more information.

This narrative about him being afraid of Sexton is just bizarre to be honest.

As referenced above, the far more likely answer is he wanted to leave one of his best players and leaders on the pitch in the hope that his experience would pull the team through, rather than bringing in a rookie 10 with little experience at that level.

How would you describe him benching Toner? Isn't that ruthless? Or is that not counted because it doesn't fit your point?


I would put more store in Leo's opinion than mine too. I leave the defense of Leo-is-afraid-of-Sexton to the people who made the postulation. If you believe the most experienced players should remain on the pitch at all times or that Leo believes that, then fine, but I don't agree. Our lack of consensus here is beyond fine, we are free to disagree on such things as fans on a forum. Re Toner, I already stated previously on this thread that Leo has shown more ruthlessness in selection, where he hasn't is intra-game, so there is no need to go over that again.

Anyways, I don't think either of us has added anything to our points in the last few posts, and I imagine people are getting bored of us on this thread. Therefore, I acknowledge your point of view while remaining with mine. Good night Sir!
#ScrapTheLions
User avatar
LENSTA
Knowledgeable
 
Posts: 265
Joined: October 4th, 2009, 11:38 pm

Re: Comparing Leo to MOC

Postby Logorrhea » May 21st, 2017, 10:35 pm

The fact that this thread has managed to generate three pages of total b*%&!x is beyond me.
User avatar
Logorrhea
Malcolm O'Kelly
 
Posts: 3848
Joined: October 2nd, 2007, 1:20 pm
Location: D24

Re: Comparing Leo to MOC

Postby LENSTA » May 21st, 2017, 10:51 pm

Bollox? Harsh! I give this thread a solid 2 out of 5. Not great. But not total b*%&!x either.
#ScrapTheLions
User avatar
LENSTA
Knowledgeable
 
Posts: 265
Joined: October 4th, 2009, 11:38 pm

Re: Comparing Leo to MOC

Postby riocard911 » May 21st, 2017, 11:51 pm

Yeah, don't be so harsh, we're trying to get over the trauma of Friday together, so it's all good. Oíche mhaith! Bríonglóidí milse!!
riocard911
Mullet
 
Posts: 1033
Joined: July 27th, 2015, 10:42 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Leinster Addicts

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], COYBIB, mildlyinterested and 6 guests