2017 -2018 Champions Cup Seeding

[Cathalsmart]

Montpellier away is virtually impossible. They were good last and have a billionaire owner and have recruited well again. Glasgow have recruited well also and have Dave Rennie as coach - it's tough but doable, and Exeter as Prem champions is another very tricky task, but also probably doable. Nonetheless, three away defeats against those opposition would not be surprising. That's not defeatist, we're good enough to beat them and obviously should approach the games as such, but we do not have a divine right to have other elite clubs in Europe roll over and have their bellies tickled.

See there we go again, words like "impossible" used. If thats the case we are totally screwed as we won't beat Saracens or Clermont if we can't beat Montpellier. The bulk of our team beat the All Black's, I'm sure they would be good enough to beat a Montpellier side in transition...

[simonokeeffe]

Its worth noting Saracens have 16 foreign players. Very hard for academy and IQ players to compete with that. And they promised not to cheat last season

Plus EPCR was part designed to make it harder for Irish sides to win

[Cathalsmart]

Montpellier away is virtually impossible. They were good last and have a billionaire owner and have recruited well again. Glasgow have recruited well also and have Dave Rennie as coach - it's tough but doable, and Exeter as Prem champions is another very tricky task, but also probably doable. Nonetheless, three away defeats against those opposition would not be surprising. That's not defeatist, we're good enough to beat them and obviously should approach the games as such, but we do not have a divine right to have other elite clubs in Europe roll over and have their bellies tickled.

See there we go again, words like "impossible" used. If thats the case we are totally screwed as we won't beat Saracens or Clermont if we can't beat Montpellier. The bulk of our team beat the All Black's, I'm sure they would be good enough to beat a Montpellier side in transition...

We are 2nd or 3rd in the ranking in europe imo, we should expect to be able to beat anyone as long as they aren't Saracens or Clermont. Do you think Saracens fan's would be saying Montpellier is "impossible" ??? no because they have the desire to win these games.

[Cathalsmart]

Its worth noting Saracens have 16 foreign players. Very hard for academy and IQ players to compete with that. And they promised not to cheat last season

Plus EPCR was part designed to make it harder for Irish sides to win

We threw away the game versus Clermont (like we all knew they would), if we won that I honestly think we would have given Saracens an all might game in the final. Neutral venues I'm okay with as its quite even in terms of support but away games we tend to sh!t the bed a bit. If you look at Saracens & Leinster outside of second row is there a position that they are much better than us? Hooker yes but other than that no and i'd say we definitely have the edge on them in quite a few positions. With this being the case why is it impossible to think that we can't be like them? We have the best academy in europe most probably (very rarely see other team produce players who look at home in the champions cup as much as us) so that whole IQ thing imo is evened up. We just need to stop this sh!t by saying games are "impossible" i mean what a defeatist attitude to have, we are good enough to beat anyone in Europe if we perform so lets stop this shite about talking up teams and just focus on ourselves. I remember being on here prior to the Wasps game and everyone was pretty much saying Wasps were overwhelming favourites (which I personally found laughable and was wonder had anyone on here actually watched Wasps this season) and in the end we battered them.

[OTT]

We are 2nd or 3rd in the ranking in europe imo, we should expect to be able to beat anyone as long as they aren't Saracens or Clermont. Do you think Saracens fan's would be saying Montpellier is "impossible" ??? no because they have the desire to win these games.

Hold up you say we are 3rd in the rankings and are only allowed (ie you wont throw your toys out of the pram if we do) lose to either Clermont or Saracens. Last season we reached the semi final ie the last 4 and lost to Clermont by 5pts. So we have achieved your objective. What are you banging on about.

[Cathalsmart]

We are 2nd or 3rd in the ranking in europe imo, we should expect to be able to beat anyone as long as they aren't Saracens or Clermont. Do you think Saracens fan's would be saying Montpellier is "impossible" ??? no because they have the desire to win these games.

Hold up you say we are 3rd in the rankings and are only allowed (ie you wont throw your toys out of the pram if we do) lose to either Clermont or Saracens. Last season we reached the semi final ie the last 4 and lost to Clermont by 5pts. So we have achieved your objective. What are you banging on about.

We are 3rd or so based on last season...please stop trying to be smug, it really isn't working for you.

[OTT]

We are 2nd or 3rd in the ranking in europe imo, we should expect to be able to beat anyone as long as they aren't Saracens or Clermont. Do you think Saracens fan's would be saying Montpellier is "impossible" ??? no because they have the desire to win these games.

Hold up you say we are 3rd in the rankings and are only allowed (ie you wont throw your toys out of the pram if we do) lose to either Clermont or Saracens. Last season we reached the semi final ie the last 4 and lost to Clermont by 5pts. So we have achieved your objective. What are you banging on about.

We are 3rd or so based on last season...please stop trying to be smug, it really isn't working for you.

Says the guy who is basing his whole point (is there one actually?) on imaginary desire beans that supposedly just win teams matches. Good luck with that.

[neiliog93]

What makes you think we'd have given an all-conquering Sarries side an 'all-mighty' game in the final? We were spanked at home by Scarlets in the Pro 12 semi-final. The likely result against Sarries in any final would have been something like 30-15, where we were competitive for a while but they slowly strangled the life out of the game. This team has the potential to be the best in Europe, but the 30-15 scoreline is just where we are at the moment.

[simonokeeffe]

Defeatism is not a good thing but neither are unobtainable expectations, Irish sides can still win European Cups but they or we are never going to dominate Europe again, not with our restrictions on foreign players, opposition budgets, and tournament format

We can win any one off game but not going undefeated for 2 seasons is not a failing

Hooker, Locks, No 8, scrumhalf, back 3 they have the better players

[Cathalsmart]

No. 8 yes, scrum half just about on experience back 3 hell no.

Saying this like winning a game is "impossible" is absolute defeatism, how is it impossible? Montpellier have never got to the KO stage of the top european competition and have a new squad/team in place?.

in regards to this season Leinster and Saracens would be even in the centres.

15 = for both is much of a muchness, Leinster have an international player at 15 whereas Saracens have a fullback who can't even get into an England squad in a position where England are struggling in.

14 = Depends who starts for Leinster on which wing, wearing 14 would probably be Lowe and I think its fair to say Lowe is better than Maitland.

13 = Ringrose is better than any of Saracen's centre and for me this is a position Saracens are no more than workman like, they do a solid job which is what's needed.

12 = Henshaw a lion which none of the Saracens team achieved so its fair to say he's better, Brad Barritt is a limited play excellent defensively but does not offer much more. Amazes me he was ever capped by England or even the lions.

11 = Williams definitely, hate him but he's just quality.

10 = Hardest to call. Really near impossible to call, if both were on offer i'd pick both but you can't. Sexton started at 10 for the Lions with Farrell at 12 which indicates that Sexton is the slightly better 10.

9 = Wigglesworth's experience would edge McGrath who while a good player does have is occasional brainfart which isn't great when in a big european match.

8 = Billy no question, Jamie is a great player but there isn't a 8 in the world outside of Read that offers as much as Vunipola.

7 = Van der Flier i'd have, the game plan Leinster want to play he is the perfect 7 for it.

6 = O'Brien you might swell just copy what I wrote for Vunipola except in a 7 shirt.

5 = Kruis, didnt have a great Lions tour but on his day a great line out caller and a certain start for Saracens & England. Im a big fan of J.Ryan and think he will have a big future but he has a long way to go till he can make an argument to be among the best quite clearly.

4 = Itoje, this is the level I would hope Ryan could reach, Itoje is one of the best forward prospects we have had in the NH and of course is untouchable.

3 = Furlong, imo the best tighthead in the world so goes without say starts ahead of the Sarries 3

2 = George, Best hooker in the NH so of course starts ahead of Cronin/Tracy

1 = M.Vunipola, great player, McGrath is unlucky here but an all round game you have to go with Mako.

So overall

Sarries = 7 Leinster = 8

Not exactly a crazy call to say we should aim high...

[wixfjord]

We threw away the game versus Clermont (like we all knew they would)

What does that even mean? You're talking complete nonsense.
We were underdogs going into that game, had a mare of a first 25, punched our way back into it and should've won but for Owens spotting Leavy's hold.

We didn't 'throw the game away'. Just because you lose doesn't mean you're throwing the game, just like if you lose and get a LBP you weren't 'going for the LBP'. That's illogical. It's outcome bias and scoreboard journalism at its finest.
And as for 'we all knew they would' that doesn't even make sense. We all believed we could win but hand on heart Clermont were favourites.

You said above that 'you knew they'd lose to Clermont' back in January before we'd even been drawn against Clermont though, so maybe you have some Nostradamus qualities?

[BlueBlue]

We threw away the game versus Clermont (like we all knew they would)

What does that even mean? You're talking complete nonsense.
We were underdogs going into that game, had a mare of a first 25, punched our way back into it and should've won but for Owens spotting Leavy's hold.

We didn't 'throw the game away'. Just because you lose doesn't mean you're throwing the game, just like if you lose and get a LBP you weren't 'going for the LBP'. That's illogical. It's outcome bias and scoreboard journalism at its finest.
And as for 'we all knew they would' that doesn't even make sense. We all believed we could win but hand on heart Clermont were favourites.

You said above that 'you knew they'd lose to Clermont' back in January before we'd even been drawn against Clermont though, so maybe you have some Nostradamus qualities?

Well said,

[johng]

While I don't agree with all of Cathal's points.

A/ I don't think it's a bad thing for Leinster to aim high. You can be sure the team do.

and..)

B/ I don't see why he is getting so much hate for having an opinion which is not completely insane (even if I don't agree with it.

Leinster fans always are fearful before games. We always talk our selves down. However we have no affect on the team's mentality. I can guarantee you that none of the Euro players are on here on match weeks if at all.

In fact it is a bit of a backwater here these days with just a few regular posters and the odd journo slumming it

[wixfjord]

While I don't agree with all of Cathal's points.

A/ I don't think it's a bad thing for Leinster to aim high. You can be sure the team do.

Nobody is saying it is. This is a strawman.

B/ I don't see why he is getting so much hate for having an opinion which is not completely insane (even if I don't agree with it.

A lot of what he is saying sort of is actually.
'Leinster are actively targeting a LBP instead of a win'.
'I predicted we would lose to Clermont in January'
'We threw away the game versus Clermont (like we all knew they would)'
'I remember being on here prior to the Wasps game and everyone was pretty much saying Wasps were overwhelming favourites'
'Most of our away wins have been against shite opposition'
'all they have to do is express themselves and the results will come'
'the want to win is obviously there but the desire isn't there'
'Always nervy for Irish teams on the road as it seems as if they almost always settle for a loss before kick off even happens so long as they get a LBP.'

There's a difference between an opinion and continuing to spout things that are objectively wrong and ridiculous.

[BlueBlue]

To sign off basically what I'm saying is the want to win is obviously there but the desire isn't there which is why an Irish team will probably go a decade or 2 without winning a champions cup trophy because (like it or not) aiming for LBP's on the road doesn't quite work in the KO stage or in a final you have to actually win games, Leinster with the bulk of the Irish NT won 2 away wins in 3 years (1 narrow win against Castres despite the fact Harlequins & Wasp's thumped that same Castres side away, and 1 against Northampton which tbf was a good win but that Northampton side was awful, felt at times Leinster made real hard work of the game) which imo is unacceptable, we have as great side imo we should be aiming to win every game we play against granted away to teams like Saracens its understandable that we don't win but against almost every other side's we should be aiming for a win and no less should be excepted. Look at the forum on here, it looks as if most on here have pretty much accepted defeat away to Montpellier before the campaign has even begun, what kind of attitude is that? That is the difference between us and English/French teams, do you think Saracens & Clermont would accept defeat away to Montpellier? No they wouldn't infect they would consider that a failure...thats the difference between us and them, we need to stop setting the bar low and aim a little higher otherwise we will be no more than a bridesmaid for the foreseeable future. Am I exadurating? well...we will find out in a year, I hope Leinster win the whole thing as much as the next guy on here but we really need to get a gripe when it comes to away games, we are good enough to win so lets bloody go out there and win.


Rant over.

are you Peter de Villiers ?

"There's little difference between winning and losing, except you feel better after winning." - Peter de Villiers

[BlueBlue]

I think Cathalsmart has a point. After last year's disaster against the Scarlets in the RDS at the end of May, I don't to hear anymore bromides this season from players or coaching staff about the importance of getting a home quarter- or semi-final. Leinster should be aiming to demolish and defeat any and all opponents, whether we play them at home, at their grounds, at a neutral venue or on the moon!!!!

are you Peter de Villiers ?

“I have such a wonderful bunch of guys to choose from and there is pressure on all of them to perform. But even if you’re playing a game on the moon, if you have the skills and you play well, you will win.” - Peter de Villiers

[BlueBlue]

I think Cathalsmart has a point. After last year's disaster against the Scarlets in the RDS at the end of May, I don't to hear anymore bromides this season from players or coaching staff about the importance of getting a home quarter- or semi-final. Leinster should be aiming to demolish and defeat any and all opponents, whether we play them at home, at their grounds, at a neutral venue or on the moon!!!!

Halleluja! Someone gets it. Exeter/Glasgow/Montpellier, considering the third team will be going through a transitional period I don't think i'd be wrong in saying we are the best team in the pool? So we should therefore aim for 6 out of 6 and anything less should be consider a bad turnover, maybe 5 out of 6 would be considered decent but anything less should be not be accepted, that's the mindset of Saracens and that is where we should be putting the bar. Hearing on here that we won't win at Montpellier? Do you think that was Saracen's mindset when they went to Toulon? No it was go out there and give it everything and boom they won (And with a TBP I believe). Because of how well supported Leinster is we should not be acting like away games are daunting, we will always have huge crowd's even on the road. Glasgow will like Montpellier be going through a transitional period and simply don't have a great pack Imo (Jonny Grey & that Tongan signing aside they don't have anyone in that pack that I would be envious of) and there backline wouldn't be much better than ours and Imo it would need to be a lot better as the difference in the pack's is big, Exeter are literally the AP version of the Scarlets, yes premiership champ's but the price they payed for that was they were sh!t in Europe but the season before up until the last play they looked to be heading into the semi so they look to be the wildcard of the group as with there game plan I feel they are a side better than the sum of there parts.

This sounds great, a question. If we won 5 games and picked up a losing bonus point in the 6th game, would that be acceptable or a real disappointment ?

[johng]

While I don't agree with all of Cathal's points.

A/ I don't think it's a bad thing for Leinster to aim high. You can be sure the team do.

Nobody is saying it is. This is a strawman.

B/ I don't see why he is getting so much hate for having an opinion which is not completely insane (even if I don't agree with it.

A lot of what he is saying sort of is actually.
'Leinster are actively targeting a LBP instead of a win'.
'I predicted we would lose to Clermont in January'
'We threw away the game versus Clermont (like we all knew they would)'
'I remember being on here prior to the Wasps game and everyone was pretty much saying Wasps were overwhelming favourites'
'Most of our away wins have been against shite opposition'
'all they have to do is express themselves and the results will come'
'the want to win is obviously there but the desire isn't there'
'Always nervy for Irish teams on the road as it seems as if they almost always settle for a loss before kick off even happens so long as they get a LBP.'

There's a difference between an opinion and continuing to spout things that are objectively wrong and ridiculous.

2 or 3 of those are at least arguable. Why the heavy hands slapping the guy down? People flouncing out with harumphs. It's just a guys opinion. Disagree by all means (I do) but give him a break or even a bit of humour.

[BlueBlue]

Do you think that was Saracen's mindset when they went to Toulon? No it was go out there and give it everything and boom they won (And with a TBP I believe).

Never heard such clap trap.

Did Saracens set out to get a draw away with Scarlets last season (Scarlets who are sh!t in Europe apparently!!) If so why did they not want to win that game? Does the result dictate what the mindset was? Scarlets were brilliant that day btw and were very unlucky not to win, teams don't just win because they want to.

Saracens are a brilliant side give them some credit, they won the cup because they were better then the other teams in the competition.

You make things sound simple. Turn up in the right mindset and you automatically win. Nothing works like that, give yourself the best chance definitely but after that things are out of your control.

Its the truth, Scarlets away was the first game they didn't win in 2 season in the champions cup and are in a position to say that it was a once off. If Leinster were in the same position in the last play needing a try they would have knocked on and got the LBP they craved. Its the same at international level, in England its settle for nothing less than all wins whereas Ireland it's essentially "ill take 2nd", if you settle for less you get less simple. Are Leinster good enough to win away to Glasgow? Yes, so go for the win and don't settle for the bullshit LBP, are Leinster good enough to win away to Exeter? Yes, so go for the win and don't settle for the LBP, are Leinster good enough to win away to Montpellier? Tough one but id say yes so go for the win. Now if I was a betting man I would say Leinster will win 1 game of the 3 and we will settle for an away QF/SF and end up crashing out at the same stage as last year, seems to be how we roll, we need to get rid of this defeatist mind set.

You do know Leinster are one of the most decorated teams in Europe.

[wixfjord]

While I don't agree with all of Cathal's points.

A/ I don't think it's a bad thing for Leinster to aim high. You can be sure the team do.

Nobody is saying it is. This is a strawman.

B/ I don't see why he is getting so much hate for having an opinion which is not completely insane (even if I don't agree with it.

A lot of what he is saying sort of is actually.
'Leinster are actively targeting a LBP instead of a win'.
'I predicted we would lose to Clermont in January'
'We threw away the game versus Clermont (like we all knew they would)'
'I remember being on here prior to the Wasps game and everyone was pretty much saying Wasps were overwhelming favourites'
'Most of our away wins have been against shite opposition'
'all they have to do is express themselves and the results will come'
'the want to win is obviously there but the desire isn't there'
'Always nervy for Irish teams on the road as it seems as if they almost always settle for a loss before kick off even happens so long as they get a LBP.'

There's a difference between an opinion and continuing to spout things that are objectively wrong and ridiculous.

2 or 3 of those are at least arguable. Why the heavy hands slapping the guy down? People flouncing out with harumphs. It's just a guys opinion. Disagree by all means (I do) but give him a break or even a bit of humour.

I'm not slapping anyone down. I'm arguing a point. Isn't it ironic that you haven't done that by the way John, rather you've jumped in and accused others?

Which 2 or 3 of those would you argue?