Leinster v Edinburgh Fri 29 Sep 19:35 TG4 & BBC Alba

[simonokeeffe]

Throwing could well be a psychological issue as much as anything, and I think a good analogy here is Beauden Barrett's goalkicking ie it's not like it's being blythely ignored by coaches with expertise in the area or the player isn't working on it

Tracy has maybe some excuse as he's a late convert to the position but Cronin has had how many coaches now at various sides and none of them sorted his throwing for him

[the spoofer]

I wonder how many here have had to throw into a lineout, especially when there is something on the line like a try, match points or your career.

Add in all the variables, opposition set up, conditions, noise and it's no wonder lineouts go askew. Having said all that, our overall lineout mechanism looks quite poor and needs some serious attention.

[simonokeeffe]

I wonder how many here have had to throw into a lineout, especially when there is something on the line like a try, match points or your career.

Add in all the variables, opposition set up, conditions, noise and it's no wonder lineouts go askew. Having said all that, our overall lineout mechanism looks quite poor and needs some serious attention.

it does need attention, some of the calls have to be looked at too, maybe the (enforced) constant chopping and changing of our lineups doesnt help either which is far more than most other teams

obviously this is not unique to us but its probably hard to enable the hookers to do extra (realistic) practice without invovling a pack to throw to and one to compete

[Oldschool]

... if we had the energy and committment that Edinburgh showed we would have won by 20, I was very impressed with them

Absolutely. They looked very well-coached and well-organised. Cockerill does a lot of things well as a coach, has outstanding experience and is a serious addition to Edinburgh in particular but also to the coaching standard of the league in general. I would be surprised if they can keep him for any significant length of time.

Regarding Bryan Byrne – he's as honest as the day is long and the idea that he doesn't practise his lineout throwing – and practise it diligently – is unthinkable. But the unfortunate fact is that, hard worker or not, his throwing has never been anywhere near reliable since he joined up; whether it's a 'A' level or Pro12 level, it has been an issue for 4-5 years. It's not like it was really good, that he had it and changed technique to get better but instead got worse [like you see with some bowlers in cricket] ... it's always been unreliable to the point of mediocrity.

Some of it may be physiological. He's not a big guy, and he doesn't have long levers or big hands. That is what it is, it's not going to change. But there's definitely a psychological element to it too, because smaller hookers have thrown better.

At this point, it's looking like a problem that could cut his Leinster career short, because you'd struggle to see any improvement on previous seasons in that regard. Beyond the Pro12, I've seen him play a lot of games in Donnybrook for the 'A' side, and his throwing issues have been more or less a constant.

He's a good player who does a lot of things well and is a serious worker, but he's not so good that he can get past struggling at a major part of his position. I've a good bit of sympathy for him. It's a lonely place when you're on the spot in a team game, be it kicking goals or throwing in to a lineout.

The issue re throwing is technique IMHO.
Practicing the wrong technique will not improve matters.
All the the Leinster hookers have poor throwing technique.

[Peg Leg]

... if we had the energy and committment that Edinburgh showed we would have won by 20, I was very impressed with them

Absolutely. They looked very well-coached and well-organised. Cockerill does a lot of things well as a coach, has outstanding experience and is a serious addition to Edinburgh in particular but also to the coaching standard of the league in general. I would be surprised if they can keep him for any significant length of time.

Regarding Bryan Byrne – he's as honest as the day is long and the idea that he doesn't practise his lineout throwing – and practise it diligently – is unthinkable. But the unfortunate fact is that, hard worker or not, his throwing has never been anywhere near reliable since he joined up; whether it's a 'A' level or Pro12 level, it has been an issue for 4-5 years. It's not like it was really good, that he had it and changed technique to get better but instead got worse [like you see with some bowlers in cricket] ... it's always been unreliable to the point of mediocrity.

Some of it may be physiological. He's not a big guy, and he doesn't have long levers or big hands. That is what it is, it's not going to change. But there's definitely a psychological element to it too, because smaller hookers have thrown better.

At this point, it's looking like a problem that could cut his Leinster career short, because you'd struggle to see any improvement on previous seasons in that regard. Beyond the Pro12, I've seen him play a lot of games in Donnybrook for the 'A' side, and his throwing issues have been more or less a constant.

He's a good player who does a lot of things well and is a serious worker, but he's not so good that he can get past struggling at a major part of his position. I've a good bit of sympathy for him. It's a lonely place when you're on the spot in a team game, be it kicking goals or throwing in to a lineout.

The issue re throwing is technique IMHO.
Practicing the wrong technique will not improve matters.
All the the Leinster hookers have poor throwing technique.

How so?

[Oldschool]

Start by observing how each hooker holds the ball just prior to the throw in.
There is a marked difference between how the Munster hookers 'address' the ball and how the Leinster hookers do it.
Munster's is even handed.
Leinster's has a dominant hand.
BTW Rory Best uses the Leinster technique.

[Peg Leg]

Start by observing how each hooker holds the ball just prior to the throw in.
There is a marked difference between how the Munster hookers 'address' the ball and how the Leinster hookers do it.
Munster's is even handed.
Leinster's has a dominant hand.
BTW Rory Best uses the Leinster technique.

I would suggest that most hookers hold the ball akin to Rory Best. Everyone has a dominant hand, so it makes sense to have a one to the rear for force and front to guide.
[Never played a match in my life] looking at the dynamics of it, seems to be as much about the jerk of the back, which some hookers seem to be able to manage as cleanly/fluid as a golf swing. Others like cronin who is ridiculously barrell chested and not much in the way of a neck seem really mechanical/twitchy (rather than fluid). The lads with the longer arms seem to be able to just throw (as in almost just arms) rather than catapult like cronin.

It's an odd one because the physical attributes that you need for a front rower seem counter productive to lineout throwing. If it wasn't for all that wonderful space out there at set piece time, you would have a back throwing into the lineout.

[cormac]

Used to be common for wingers to throw into the lineout.

[johng]

When I were a lad the wingers threw the ball in. Different winger depending on which side of the field you were on.

Then again hookers were built like scrum halves back then and hung off their props in mid air.

They stopped it beacuse of the lack of a blindside winger in attack or more importantly defence if the lineout didn't go to plan.

Big hookers are a relatively recent thing started by the argies and then the kiwis.

[Ruckedtobits]

Start by observing how each hooker holds the ball just prior to the throw in.
There is a marked difference between how the Munster hookers 'address' the ball and how the Leinster hookers do it.
Munster's is even handed.
Leinster's has a dominant hand.
BTW Rory Best uses the Leinster technique.

The technique used by different hookers is largely a function of the size and flexibility of their hands, fingers and wrists.

The equivalent skills of a quarterback are largely a function of their arm and shoulder as the ball is smaller and less round.

The skills of a javelin thrower revolve around their arm and shoulder strength and their alignment of their upper body strength, all combined into a very disciplined technique.

The skills of a darts player, combined with the temprement of a goal kicker or a great putter, allied to the discipline and patience of a fly fisherman were adjudged as the essential components of a top class line-out thrower at a Seminar I attended in Clongowes many years ago. The speaker was an Irish international and Lions hooker and perhaps the best Irish thrower ever, Steve Smith of Ballymena.

All of the above comments come from the Notes provided for that Seminar in about 1996 or 97 when we were also going through another regular bout of "we can't throw the ball into a lineout" illness. Its a recurrent disease, like scrum-half passing, that seems to inflict our Nation with repetitive frequency.

[tingman]

Really thought Dave Kearney was poor, McFadden also looks like he has lost a few yards of pace in the last year or two.

Thought the game was screaming for a bit of pace in the attack for an Adam Byrne or Barry Daly, maybe they're being rested for Munster.

Sexton did ok, I do however agree with the point that he needs to know who's playing around him and take more responsibility when we don't have a full strength side out. BOD was great at doing this and taking on extra responsibility with or without the ball.

Lets get real. Ferg's a nice guy and all that but agricultural at best. Winger - you kidding me? should be nowhere near this crew in professional times

[Oldschool]

Start by observing how each hooker holds the ball just prior to the throw in.
There is a marked difference between how the Munster hookers 'address' the ball and how the Leinster hookers do it.
Munster's is even handed.
Leinster's has a dominant hand.
BTW Rory Best uses the Leinster technique.

The technique used by different hookers is largely a function of the size and flexibility of their hands, fingers and wrists.

The equivalent skills of a quarterback are largely a function of their arm and shoulder as the ball is smaller and less round.

The skills of a javelin thrower revolve around their arm and shoulder strength and their alignment of their upper body strength, all combined into a very disciplined technique.

The skills of a darts player, combined with the temprement of a goal kicker or a great putter, allied to the discipline and patience of a fly fisherman were adjudged as the essential components of a top class line-out thrower at a Seminar I attended in Clongowes many years ago. The speaker was an Irish international and Lions hooker and perhaps the best Irish thrower ever, Steve Smith of Ballymena.

All of the above comments come from the Notes provided for that Seminar in about 1996 or 97 when we were also going through another regular bout of "we can't throw the ball into a lineout" illness. Its a recurrent disease, like scrum-half passing, that seems to inflict our Nation with repetitive frequency.

Fla has coached all his hookers to use the same technique that he used and it's been effective so far.

[Oldschool]

Start by observing how each hooker holds the ball just prior to the throw in.
There is a marked difference between how the Munster hookers 'address' the ball and how the Leinster hookers do it.
Munster's is even handed.
Leinster's has a dominant hand.
BTW Rory Best uses the Leinster technique.

The technique used by different hookers is largely a function of the size and flexibility of their hands, fingers and wrists.

The equivalent skills of a quarterback are largely a function of their arm and shoulder as the ball is smaller and less round.

The skills of a javelin thrower revolve around their arm and shoulder strength and their alignment of their upper body strength, all combined into a very disciplined technique.

The skills of a darts player, combined with the temprement of a goal kicker or a great putter, allied to the discipline and patience of a fly fisherman were adjudged as the essential components of a top class line-out thrower at a Seminar I attended in Clongowes many years ago. The speaker was an Irish international and Lions hooker and perhaps the best Irish thrower ever, Steve Smith of Ballymena.

All of the above comments come from the Notes provided for that Seminar in about 1996 or 97 when we were also going through another regular bout of "we can't throw the ball into a lineout" illness. Its a recurrent disease, like scrum-half passing, that seems to inflict our Nation with repetitive frequency.

Fla has coached all his hookers to use the same technique that he used and it's been effective so far.

[Oldschool]

Start by observing how each hooker holds the ball just prior to the throw in.
There is a marked difference between how the Munster hookers 'address' the ball and how the Leinster hookers do it.
Munster's is even handed.
Leinster's has a dominant hand.
BTW Rory Best uses the Leinster technique.

I would suggest that most hookers hold the ball akin to Rory Best. Everyone has a dominant hand, so it makes sense to have a one to the rear for force and front to guide.
[Never played a match in my life] looking at the dynamics of it, seems to be as much about the jerk of the back, which some hookers seem to be able to manage as cleanly/fluid as a golf swing. Others like cronin who is ridiculously barrell chested and not much in the way of a neck seem really mechanical/twitchy (rather than fluid). The lads with the longer arms seem to be able to just throw (as in almost just arms) rather than catapult like cronin.

It's an odd one because the physical attributes that you need for a front rower seem counter productive to lineout throwing. If it wasn't for all that wonderful space out there at set piece time, you would have a back throwing into the lineout.

It's the dominant hand that is the problem.
Fla's technique minimises the problem.

[simonokeeffe]

What was Fogarty's throwing like when he played?

[BlueWheels]

Post deleted - wrong thread.

[Ruckedtobits]

What was Fogarty's throwing like when he played?

Occasionally on a par with Brian Byrne.

[jimbobjoe]

Watching hookers throwing for Leinster and Munster today (excluding Stander's throw). Hand placement was basically the same for both hookers, both with a 'dominant' hand.

As far as I know, one hand is used to direct the ball and one to deliver power (the dominant hand). What are you talking about oldschool? If both hands are level, either power or direction is diminished.

[Ruckedtobits]

Herrings throwing on Friday night was fascinating. Started really well and then had two / three horrors without any apparent reason. Huge amount of it is about mental focus and confidence

[Oldschool]

Watching hookers throwing for Leinster and Munster today (excluding Stander's throw). Hand placement was basically the same for both hookers, both with a 'dominant' hand.

As far as I know, one hand is used to direct the ball and one to deliver power (the dominant hand). What are you talking about oldschool? If both hands are level, either power or direction is diminished.

Haven't seen the video yet. However my assessment of the throwing styles may differ to yours.
I specifically referred to FLA's style of throwing and that all the Munster hookers have the same style as fla.. The dominant hand was raised by others iirc
My argument would be that Fla's techniqye seems to overcome any throwing issues including consistency.