Barry Daly

[Dave Cahill]

Great article in the London Times about Barry Daly by the excellent Ciarán Ó Raghallaigh

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/pati ... -mxxsmnqvf

You can register for two free articles a week - this is definitely worth being one of them

[molloyjh]

proves he should have been given an academy offer when he was under-20, something a lot of people thought at the time.

Does it? How does the fact that he is performing now prove anything other than the fact that he is performing now? You can't retrospectively apply his current form to where he was the better part of a decade ago. Different players mature at different ages. Maybe he just wasn't at the point he needed to be at when he was being looked at for the Academy? And has since worked hard to develop himself?

[wixfjord]

proves he should have been given an academy offer when he was under-20, something a lot of people thought at the time.

Does it? How does the fact that he is performing now prove anything other than the fact that he is performing now? You can't retrospectively apply his current form to where he was the better part of a decade ago. Different players mature at different ages. Maybe he just wasn't at the point he needed to be at when he was being looked at for the Academy? And has since worked hard to develop himself?

Great post Molloy, and bang on.
Same issue with Tadhg Beirne, a lot of outcome bias at play.

That's not to say they shouldn't have been given contracts, but using current form to measure the decision made back then is flawed thinking.
There is a very logical scenario whereby the decision might have been right at the time and look very wrong now. That's the vagaries of making decisions in pro sport.

[ronk]

Coaches use private information to make predictions about player potential. It's not an exact science by any means, but outcome bias isn't (and can't be) a defence for when a mistake is made.

Dalyis shielding here that he's a good player rather than somewhere else, I'm happy with that.

[wixfjord]

Coaches use private information to make predictions about player potential. It's not an exact science by any means, but outcome bias isn't (and can't be) a defence for when a mistake is made.

Dalyis shielding here that he's a good player rather than somewhere else, I'm happy with that.

So you ignore the conditions at the time when the decision was made and judge only based upon how the player turns out?

It's not a defense. But you can't ignore mitigating circumstances and just look at how the player turns out when judging a decision.

That's like someone arguing Gatland was right to drop BOD because they won a series.
Or saying a kick into the corner is wrong just because it doesn't result in a try.
Or saying Sexton's decision to kick for the posts against NZ that time instead of kicking for the corner was wrong because he missed.

Each decision has to be judged on its merits, and that includes the outcome, but also the situation/conditions at the time.

To paraphrase Keynes, when the facts change, we should change our minds.

[leinsterforever]

Presumably it was Schmidt who made the call not to give Daly an academy deal back in 2011 or 2012 or whenever it was. It would be interesting to know what he thinks of him now.

[mildlyinterested]

Presumably it was Schmidt who made the call not to give Daly an academy deal back in 2011 or 2012 or whenever it was. It would be interesting to know what he thinks of him now.

No it was Dempsey.

[curates_egg]

Great article in the London Times about Barry Daly by the excellent Ciarán Ó Raghallaigh

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/pati ... -mxxsmnqvf

You can register for two free articles a week - this is definitely worth being one of them

Is that offer restricted to people with an ROI IP address? It's not available to me. They want a quid per month and I'll be fooked if I'm giving Murdoch any money.

[jimbobjoe]

Also in the Irish sun and is available to read in the UK.

https://www.thesun.ie/sport/rugby-union ... pions-cup/

[curates_egg]

Also in the Irish sun and is available to read in the UK.

https://www.thesun.ie/sport/rugby-union ... pions-cup/

Ta. Still hope for me.

[Dave Cahill]

Presumably it was Schmidt who made the call not to give Daly an academy deal back in 2011 or 2012 or whenever it was. It would be interesting to know what he thinks of him now.

No it was Dempsey.

No it wasn't and you've been repeatedly pulled up on this one - to the point where you're being wilfully inaccurate. Collie McEntee was in charge of the academy in 2011.

[mildlyinterested]

Presumably it was Schmidt who made the call not to give Daly an academy deal back in 2011 or 2012 or whenever it was. It would be interesting to know what he thinks of him now.

No it was Dempsey.

No it wasn't and you've been repeatedly pulled up on this one - to the point where you're being wilfully inaccurate. Collie McEntee was in charge of the academy in 2011.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/l ... 34083.html

article says it was dempsey, dempsey:

"We felt at the time that it wasn't right for him. We had a look at him in the sub-academy and felt at the time it wasn't right for him to come into the environment."

I'm sure it was a joint effort, but dempsey certainly would have had a large say as he was backs coach for academy at the time.

[Dave Cahill]

Again, no he wasn't. He was one of two EPDOs at the time along with Wayne Mitchell.

[cormac]

Daly was U-20 in 2012 wasn't he? Same side as Furlong and Conan

[mildlyinterested]

Daly was U-20 in 2012 wasn't he? Same side as Furlong and Conan

Yes and Mikey Sherlock and Sam Coghlan Murray who both got academy deals.

[mildlyinterested]

Again, no he wasn't. He was one of two EPDOs at the time along with Wayne Mitchell.

Dempsey may not have been solely responsible but he was involved in choosing others over him, read the quote.

What do you think he did when he was an EDPO? coach the forwards in the academy?

[Dave Cahill]

Again, no he wasn't. He was one of two EPDOs at the time along with Wayne Mitchell.

Dempsey may not have been solely responsible but he was involved in choosing others over him, read the quote.

What do you think he did when he was an EDPO? coach the forwards in the academy?

So, again, he's gone from head of the academy to the backs coach of the academy to helping coach the backs in the academy on a part time basis as part of another role that he shares with someone else.



Could it be that you just have a problem with Dempsey?

[mildlyinterested]

Again, no he wasn't. He was one of two EPDOs at the time along with Wayne Mitchell.

Dempsey may not have been solely responsible but he was involved in choosing others over him, read the quote.

What do you think he did when he was an EDPO? coach the forwards in the academy?

So, again, he's gone from head of the academy to the backs coach of the academy to helping coach the backs in the academy on a part time basis as part of another role that he shares with someone else.



Could it be that you just have a problem with Dempsey?

Nope, just following a direct quote from Dempsey where he said they made the decision to not offer him a contract. Or do direct quotes from someone involved in the process not matter?

"We felt at the time that it wasn't right for him. We had a look at him in the sub-academy and felt at the time it wasn't right for him to come into the environment."

[the spoofer]

In fairness Rua, is there an issue between yourself and Girve because it certainly comes across as such?

[leinsterforever]

Nope, just following a direct quote from Dempsey where he said they made the decision to not offer him a contract. Or do direct quotes from someone involved in the process not matter?

"We felt at the time that it wasn't right for him. We had a look at him in the sub-academy and felt at the time it wasn't right for him to come into the environment."

I find it hard to believe that someone as meticulous and into micro-management as Schmidt wouldn't have a big say in who got into the academy on his watch.

Could the 'we' in that quote from Dempsey refer to Leinster Rugby as a whole?