Experience is king

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Experience is king

Postby molloyjh » September 29th, 2017, 8:50 am

Was just watching the latest Blues Talk yesterday evening and they were talking about the lack of experience in the team last week. It got me thinking. What would our starting pack have looked like without the internationals 5 years ago? Would it have been something like this:

VDM Strauss White
Toner Cullen
McLaughlin Ruddock Jennings

The experience and leadership there utterly eclipses that of the packs we'd be putting out now. There's lots of young talent at Leinster but most of our experienced players are internationals now. More so than ever before. Even in the back line we'd have had guys like Boss and Nacewa. Now we seem to be lucky to have 1 experienced player in the back line with injuries to guys like Isa, Dave and Ferg. Have our expectations shifted to fit with that though? And does it mean that we're still maybe a year or two away from being the team we feel we should be?
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Re: Experience is king

Postby wixfjord » September 29th, 2017, 8:59 am

If you look at a starting side without internationals now though (depending on who's picked), you'd have
Healy/Dooley, Tracy/Strauss, Bent, Fardy, Molony/Ryan, Ruddock, VDF/Leavy, Jordi

Now there ain't a huge deal of difference in quality with the below.

I get the point, and generally we do have less experience in our side than before, but I think to give that as an excuse is allowing players to cop out a bit. Particularly with Fardy there, who's added a lot.
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Re: Experience is king

Postby curates_egg » September 29th, 2017, 9:00 am

molloyjh wrote:Was just watching the latest Blues Talk yesterday evening and they were talking about the lack of experience in the team last week. It got me thinking. What would our starting pack have looked like without the internationals 5 years ago? Would it have been something like this:

VDM Strauss White
Toner Cullen
McLaughlin Ruddock Jennings

The experience and leadership there utterly eclipses that of the packs we'd be putting out now. There's lots of young talent at Leinster but most of our experienced players are internationals now. More so than ever before. Even in the back line we'd have had guys like Boss and Nacewa. Now we seem to be lucky to have 1 experienced player in the back line with injuries to guys like Isa, Dave and Ferg. Have our expectations shifted to fit with that though? And does it mean that we're still maybe a year or two away from being the team we feel we should be?


It was very unfair on them but the fact that deccie didn't give Leo and Jennings a look in was a major boon for us. We got two international quality players with buckets of leadership to steer the ship through the season. We then bolstered that with players like Hines, Thorn, Isa, who all brought experience and leadership.
Now we are relying on players like Isa and Ruddock, both of whom I love but whose influence does not seem to be as great. The type of players we have who could give us that leadership - e.g. Sexton and SOB - are wrapped in cotton wool and then parachuted back into teams with, at times, a disruptive effect. The NIQs we've had (apart from Isa) have had imperceptible influence on the squad, although Triggs seemed to be developing it at the end.
The flip side is that lots of young guys are being forced to develop experience, which will surely serve the squad well at some point...hopefully sooner, rather than later.
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Re: Experience is king

Postby molloyjh » September 29th, 2017, 9:16 am

wixfjord wrote:If you look at a starting side without internationals now though (depending on who's picked), you'd have
Healy/Dooley, Tracy/Strauss, Bent, Fardy, Molony/Ryan, Ruddock, VDF/Leavy, Jordi

Now there ain't a huge deal of difference in quality with the below.

I get the point, and generally we do have less experience in our side than before, but I think to give that as an excuse is allowing players to cop out a bit. Particularly with Fardy there, who's added a lot.


It's not quality I'm talking about though. It's that experience and leadership that guys like Leo and Jenno embodied. And the net experience and leadership we had, particularly in the pack, 5 years ago far exceeds what we have there now.
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Re: Experience is king

Postby molloyjh » September 29th, 2017, 9:18 am

curates_egg wrote:
molloyjh wrote:Was just watching the latest Blues Talk yesterday evening and they were talking about the lack of experience in the team last week. It got me thinking. What would our starting pack have looked like without the internationals 5 years ago? Would it have been something like this:

VDM Strauss White
Toner Cullen
McLaughlin Ruddock Jennings

The experience and leadership there utterly eclipses that of the packs we'd be putting out now. There's lots of young talent at Leinster but most of our experienced players are internationals now. More so than ever before. Even in the back line we'd have had guys like Boss and Nacewa. Now we seem to be lucky to have 1 experienced player in the back line with injuries to guys like Isa, Dave and Ferg. Have our expectations shifted to fit with that though? And does it mean that we're still maybe a year or two away from being the team we feel we should be?


It was very unfair on them but the fact that deccie didn't give Leo and Jennings a look in was a major boon for us. We got two international quality players with buckets of leadership to steer the ship through the season. We then bolstered that with players like Hines, Thorn, Isa, who all brought experience and leadership.
Now we are relying on players like Isa and Ruddock, both of whom I love but whose influence does not seem to be as great. The type of players we have who could give us that leadership - e.g. Sexton and SOB - are wrapped in cotton wool and then parachuted back into teams with, at times, a disruptive effect. The NIQs we've had (apart from Isa) have had imperceptible influence on the squad, although Triggs seemed to be developing it at the end.
The flip side is that lots of young guys are being forced to develop experience, which will surely serve the squad well at some point...hopefully sooner, rather than later.


Yeah that's pretty much exactly where I'm coming from. And obviously was a huge factor in the signing of Fardy. It would be great to see guys develop into those roles over the course of this season, but realistically it can take a few years for that to happen.
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Re: Experience is king

Postby mildlyinterested » September 29th, 2017, 9:20 am

Plenty of experience in pack that started against Cheetahs, combined 804 caps between 8 players.
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Re: Experience is king

Postby wixfjord » September 29th, 2017, 9:26 am

molloyjh wrote:
wixfjord wrote:If you look at a starting side without internationals now though (depending on who's picked), you'd have
Healy/Dooley, Tracy/Strauss, Bent, Fardy, Molony/Ryan, Ruddock, VDF/Leavy, Jordi

Now there ain't a huge deal of difference in quality with the below.

I get the point, and generally we do have less experience in our side than before, but I think to give that as an excuse is allowing players to cop out a bit. Particularly with Fardy there, who's added a lot.


It's not quality I'm talking about though. It's that experience and leadership that guys like Leo and Jenno embodied. And the net experience and leadership we had, particularly in the pack, 5 years ago far exceeds what we have there now.


Does it?
Jordi, Ruddock, Fardy, Bent, Strauss, Healy are at least as experienced as the guys in their positions 5 years ago.


You can't isolate experience and not take into account quality too.
Of the two packs above, I'm not sure which one I'd take tbh. Jennings and Cullen slowed noticeably in latter years.
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Re: Experience is king

Postby curates_egg » September 29th, 2017, 9:37 am

mildlyinterested wrote:Plenty of experience in pack that started against Cheetahs, combined 804 caps between 8 players.


There's experience and there's leadership. No stand-out leader in that starting pack. Conan and VdF could become leaders with experience, and they certainly have the quality. Same as the backs once Isa went.

We lost because our tight five got owned and our centres were defensively poor at key moments...but a bit of experience on field might have helped steady the ship before the 65th minute.
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Re: Experience is king

Postby mildlyinterested » September 29th, 2017, 9:38 am

curates_egg wrote:
mildlyinterested wrote:Plenty of experience in pack that started against Cheetahs, combined 804 caps between 8 players.


There's experience and there's leadership. No stand-out leader in that starting pack. Conan and VdF could become leaders with experience, and they certainly have the quality. Same as the backs once Isa went.

We lost because our tight five got owned and our centres were defensively poor at key moments...but a bit of experience on field might have helped steady the ship before the 65th minute.


Well then Leadership is king..
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Re: Experience is king

Postby curates_egg » September 29th, 2017, 9:46 am

mildlyinterested wrote:
curates_egg wrote:
mildlyinterested wrote:Plenty of experience in pack that started against Cheetahs, combined 804 caps between 8 players.


There's experience and there's leadership. No stand-out leader in that starting pack. Conan and VdF could become leaders with experience, and they certainly have the quality. Same as the backs once Isa went.

We lost because our tight five got owned and our centres were defensively poor at key moments...but a bit of experience on field might have helped steady the ship before the 65th minute.


Well then Leadership is king..


Touche.
But I would argue that defining "experience" solely based on caps is not entirely accurate. It's also being in different situations and learning from them how to respond. For all the combined caps in the pack, who has that experience of different situations? Healy maybe. But, to quote some fella, knowledge is knowing that a tomato is a fruit; wisdom is knowing not to put it in a fruit salad.
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Re: Experience is king

Postby mildlyinterested » September 29th, 2017, 9:49 am

curates_egg wrote:
Touche.
But I would argue that defining "experience" solely based on caps is not entirely accurate. It's also being in different situations and learning from them how to respond. For all the combined caps in the pack, who has that experience of different situations? Healy maybe. But, to quote some fella, knowledge is knowing that a tomato is a fruit; wisdom is knowing not to put it in a fruit salad.


they all have experience of different situations on the rugby field!!
they've all been playing rugby for 10+ years... their experience levels is not an excuse
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Re: Experience is king

Postby curates_egg » September 29th, 2017, 10:15 am

mildlyinterested wrote:
curates_egg wrote:
Touche.
But I would argue that defining "experience" solely based on caps is not entirely accurate. It's also being in different situations and learning from them how to respond. For all the combined caps in the pack, who has that experience of different situations? Healy maybe. But, to quote some fella, knowledge is knowing that a tomato is a fruit; wisdom is knowing not to put it in a fruit salad.


they all have experience of different situations on the rugby field!!
they've all been playing rugby for 10+ years... their experience levels is not an excuse


I refer you to my quote.
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Re: Experience is king

Postby molloyjh » September 29th, 2017, 12:41 pm

wixfjord wrote:
molloyjh wrote:
wixfjord wrote:If you look at a starting side without internationals now though (depending on who's picked), you'd have
Healy/Dooley, Tracy/Strauss, Bent, Fardy, Molony/Ryan, Ruddock, VDF/Leavy, Jordi

Now there ain't a huge deal of difference in quality with the below.

I get the point, and generally we do have less experience in our side than before, but I think to give that as an excuse is allowing players to cop out a bit. Particularly with Fardy there, who's added a lot.


It's not quality I'm talking about though. It's that experience and leadership that guys like Leo and Jenno embodied. And the net experience and leadership we had, particularly in the pack, 5 years ago far exceeds what we have there now.


Does it?
Jordi, Ruddock, Fardy, Bent, Strauss, Healy are at least as experienced as the guys in their positions 5 years ago.


You can't isolate experience and not take into account quality too.
Of the two packs above, I'm not sure which one I'd take tbh. Jennings and Cullen slowed noticeably in latter years.


I'm not ignoring quality. And I'm also talking about leadership.

Also, Rhys has 125 Leinster caps and Jordi has 86. When Leo came back from Leicester in 2007 he'd already amassed 135. By 2012 he'd have been well over 200 caps. Jenno wouldn't have been that far behind him. And both were bigger leaders than either Rhys or Jordi. Healy has a boatload of caps, but I'd hardly consider him a leader. Especially when he's still trying to recapture old form.
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Re: Experience is king

Postby wixfjord » September 29th, 2017, 2:47 pm

molloyjh wrote:

You can't isolate experience and not take into account quality too.
Of the two packs above, I'm not sure which one I'd take tbh. Jennings and Cullen slowed noticeably in latter years.


I'm not ignoring quality. And I'm also talking about leadership.

Also, Rhys has 125 Leinster caps and Jordi has 86. When Leo came back from Leicester in 2007 he'd already amassed 135. By 2012 he'd have been well over 200 caps. Jenno wouldn't have been that far behind him. And both were bigger leaders than either Rhys or Jordi. Healy has a boatload of caps, but I'd hardly consider him a leader. Especially when he's still trying to recapture old form.[/quote]

All well and good talking about leadership (which is a different thing to experience as the guys have said!), but I'd take current VDF/Leavy and Fardy over Cullen and Jenno of that era, so whatever about their 'leadership' intangible qualities, we've better players now.

Also, the difference between 200 and 125 caps is hardly a yawning chasm now is it! We've more than enough experience in the pack at the moment, but most importantly, more than enough quality for it not to be an excuse amde.
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Re: Experience is king

Postby Oldschoolsocks » October 13th, 2017, 1:32 am

wixfjord wrote:
molloyjh wrote:

You can't isolate experience and not take into account quality too.
Of the two packs above, I'm not sure which one I'd take tbh. Jennings and Cullen slowed noticeably in latter years.


I'm not ignoring quality. And I'm also talking about leadership.

Also, Rhys has 125 Leinster caps and Jordi has 86. When Leo came back from Leicester in 2007 he'd already amassed 135. By 2012 he'd have been well over 200 caps. Jenno wouldn't have been that far behind him. And both were bigger leaders than either Rhys or Jordi. Healy has a boatload of caps, but I'd hardly consider him a leader. Especially when he's still trying to recapture old form.


All well and good talking about leadership (which is a different thing to experience as the guys have said!), but I'd take current VDF/Leavy and Fardy over Cullen and Jenno of that era, so whatever about their 'leadership' intangible qualities, we've better players now.

Also, the difference between 200 and 125 caps is hardly a yawning chasm now is it! We've more than enough experience in the pack at the moment, but most importantly, more than enough quality for it not to be an excuse amde.[/quote]

Just checking- you’re taking VDF, Leavy and Fardy ahead of Leo and Jenno because they’re three players replacing two, right?
the irony being that ad-hominen and appeal to majority are the most often used defences of the apologist.
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Re: Experience is king

Postby Peg Leg » October 13th, 2017, 12:40 pm

Im with oss there.
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