Glasgow v Leinster, Sat, 1pm, Sky.

[curates_egg]

What does Luke McGrath have to do for people on here to actually admit he played poorly!

No way I'd put JGP in, but jaysus McGrath was bad again on Sat. He seems to play worse when he's needed to step up because he ends up trying to do too much.

Sense at last.
It possible to state that McGrath was poor in some aspects of his game, and still not argue that JGP should start ahead of him.

His kicking was poor but his kicking has been better this season, so I would say Saturday was an aberration.
However, some of the passing was truly dreadful as well: a real 'heads, shoulders, knees and toes' display. He is clearly an excellent player and his all-round contribution is nearly always good...but it is getting so frustrating to watch his passing. It is also infuriating that people seem to be trying to airbrush it out: it doesn't do anyone any good.

Totally different challenge away to Glasgow. If the pack plays as well as it did on Saturday, we will have a great chance though. Conan looks just a few notches off another monster performance and I would say he will want to put down a marker this week. If the pack can perform as well as the last two weekends, it will be the backs' to mess up.
I hope either Isa or Johnny are starting, as I think the one thing we were really missing on Saturday was some level headed thinking.

[Peg Leg]

What does Luke McGrath have to do for people on here to actually admit he played poorly!

No way I'd put JGP in, but jaysus McGrath was bad again on Sat. He seems to play worse when he's needed to step up because he ends up trying to do too much.

Sense at last.
It possible to state that McGrath was poor in some aspects of his game, and still not argue that JGP should start ahead of him.

His kicking was poor but his kicking has been better this season, so I would say Saturday was an aberration.
However, some of the passing was truly dreadful as well: a real 'heads, shoulders, knees and toes' display. He is clearly an excellent player and his all-round contribution is nearly always good...but it is getting so frustrating to watch his passing. It is also infuriating that people seem to be trying to airbrush it out: it doesn't do anyone any good.

Totally different challenge away to Glasgow. If the pack plays as well as it did on Saturday, we will have a great chance though. Conan looks just a few notches off another monster performance and I would say he will want to put down a marker this week. If the pack can perform as well as the last two weekends, it will be the backs' to mess up.
I hope either Isa or Johnny are starting, as I think the one thing we were really missing on Saturday was some level headed thinking.

Id second that. On McGrath he does so much more than kick, pass, run. We've seen him be the leech that drove players over to score, we have seen him tackle, jump, tackle jump with a complete loss of bearings but still taking the man with the ball each time.
His passing is worth the conversation but its hard not to feel that it is because that level of pace and erratic gameplay is how Leinster unlock teams... its like he has to go berserker to get the team on the front foot and the result is faceball.
The kicking was pants on Saturday, but he doesn't generally kick much when J10 plays.
Luke V Glasgow for me.

[riocard911]

Don't forget Luke's tap tackle on Nadolo, when the latter made his first rampage into our 22 and we were seriously under the pump in the opening minutes of the game. Had Montpellier scored then, the game would have taken on a completely different complexion.

[Peg Leg]

Don't forget Luke's tap tackle on Nadolo, when the latter made his first rampage into our 22 and we were seriously under the pump in the opening minutes of the game. Had Montpellier scored then, the game would have taken on a completely different complexion.

How could we riocard? Thats the third time youve mentioned it!

[LeinsterLeader]

I think Luke McGrath will start on Saturday (fitness providing) and JGP will back him up from the bench again.

The big question will be around Adam Byrne and Noel Reid I Think. I thought Noel did some good thinks but still missed 6 tackles while Adam (please don't read Franno today Adam, It's not helpful) missed 5 (going by ESPN stats). Overall we missed 34 tackles . We just won't be able to do that against Glasgow and expect to get anything out of the game.

[riocard911]

Don't forget Luke's tap tackle on Nadolo, when the latter made his first rampage into our 22 and we were seriously under the pump in the opening minutes of the game. Had Montpellier scored then, the game would have taken on a completely different complexion.

How could we riocard? Thats the third time youve mentioned it!

Touché!!!! It would seem the relief of that tackle and the ensuing ruck, where they coughed up possession, James Ryan grabbed the ball and we managed to repulse their first serious attempt to get over our line is still coursing thru me veins!!!!

[artaneboy]

Defensively Luke McGrath is a million miles ahead of JGP, for that reason alone he has to start against Glasgow I would have thought.

And the evidence for that big gap between them is where? I see different strengths and weaknesses in both players, no gulf in class at all. So it's based on form- and Luke's currently is not good. On the other hand Jamie was good when he came on and has been consistently capable in all elements.

I expected Luke's fan club to start elevating the 'unseen' or 'unmeasurable' work as an antidote to the evidence of our eyes and stats- and sure enough, it's started to emerge. None of it particularly unique to him or especially impressive. Tackling was mentioned. Sure he tackles bravely, I'd expect that of any 9. But that doesn't mitigate or balance out his flaws. Remember Nodolo walked over him for his second try. No shame there of course, he walked over most of the team in the match. but it's not like he's significantly better in this than JGP or McCarthy.

Truly the level of cultish denial on Luke McGrath's flaws and the claims of his entitlement to be first choice scrum half, is at Trumpian levels here. People are doing him no favours; he stands danger of becoming this generation's Michael Bradley. And that's not a good thing.



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[bluemagic]

Luke McGrath was my player of the season last year. He didn't have a great game on Saturday but I think dropping him would be completely reactionary. As others have mentioned his covering defence is probably one of the best in Europe.

Bringing JGP on and trying to beat Glasgow at their own game is suicide, Exeter showed how to beat Glasgow. Smother them in defence and kick to the corners. I would go with:

1. Healy
2. Tracey
3. Furlong
4. Fardy
5. Ryan
6. Ruddock
7. SOB (VDF if fit)
8. Conan
9. McGrath
10.Sexton
11. Daly
12. Henshaw
13. ROL
14. McFadden
15. Carbery

[wixfjord]

Did VDF get hurt over the weekend?
No way you can drop him if not!

[OTT]

Defensively Luke McGrath is a million miles ahead of JGP, for that reason alone he has to start against Glasgow I would have thought.

And the evidence for that big gap between them is where? I see different strengths and weaknesses in both players, no gulf in class at all. So it's based on form- and Luke's currently is not good. On the other hand Jamie was good when he came on and has been consistently capable in all elements.

I expected Luke's fan club to start elevating the 'unseen' or 'unmeasurable' work as an antidote to the evidence of our eyes and stats- and sure enough, it's started to emerge. None of it particularly unique to him or especially impressive. Tackling was mentioned. Sure he tackles bravely, I'd expect that of any 9. But that doesn't mitigate or balance out his flaws. Remember Nodolo walked over him for his second try. No shame there of course, he walked over most of the team in the match. but it's not like he's significantly better in this than JGP or McCarthy.

Truly the level of cultish denial on Luke McGrath's flaws and the claims of his entitlement to be first choice scrum half, is at Trumpian levels here. People are doing him no favours; he stands danger of becoming this generation's Michael Bradley. And that's not a good thing.



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I will reply to your first line, the evidence is in the games they have played for Leinster, if you think they are of a similar quality defensively that is entirely your opinion but I totally disagree with you. Not gonna bother with the rest of your rant because I am not sure who it is aimed at, I am certainly not a custodian of the Luke McGrath fan club.

[artaneboy]

Defensively Luke McGrath is a million miles ahead of JGP, for that reason alone he has to start against Glasgow I would have thought.

And the evidence for that big gap between them is where? I see different strengths and weaknesses in both players, no gulf in class at all. So it's based on form- and Luke's currently is not good. On the other hand Jamie was good when he came on and has been consistently capable in all elements.

I expected Luke's fan club to start elevating the 'unseen' or 'unmeasurable' work as an antidote to the evidence of our eyes and stats- and sure enough, it's started to emerge. None of it particularly unique to him or especially impressive. Tackling was mentioned. Sure he tackles bravely, I'd expect that of any 9. But that doesn't mitigate or balance out his flaws. Remember Nodolo walked over him for his second try. No shame there of course, he walked over most of the team in the match. but it's not like he's significantly better in this than JGP or McCarthy.

Truly the level of cultish denial on Luke McGrath's flaws and the claims of his entitlement to be first choice scrum half, is at Trumpian levels here. People are doing him no favours; he stands danger of becoming this generation's Michael Bradley. And that's not a good thing.



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I will reply to your first line, the evidence is in the games they have played for Leinster, if you think they are of a similar quality defensively that is entirely your opinion but I totally disagree with you. Not gonna bother with the rest of your rant because I am not sure who it is aimed at, I am certainly not a custodian of the Luke McGrath fan club.

Okay, so we both use the same sample data- matches played. Well that's my starting point too.

What I think is- they are of similar quality in their OVERALL scrum half qualities: different strengths and weaknesses meaning neither is the perfect SH package, but neither is a bad player.

At the moment my view is that JGP has earned a start, the presumption here that Luke gets picked no matter how he performs is... well perplexing. Luke may become the better all-round player, but like Adam Byrne a d his defending, he has to start improving his basics.


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[El Diablo]

Tap and go was criminal.

I agree but it is not always the SH's call. Did Byrne or someone else call the tap & go? It certainly certainly seemed crazy from where I was. I will have to watch the recording.

[wixfjord]

Am I missing something here?!
McGrath was good against Embra and Munster, has a poor game at the weekend and is now out of form? Based on one game?!
JGP had a absolute mare against Cheetahs, comes on for a few mins at the weekend and now has 'earned a start'?

McGrath's defence is head and shoulders above JGP, as is his kicking. Had a bad game at the weekend but jaysus you're being very knee jerk.

There's no "presumption here that Luke gets picked no matter how he performs."
But he's our better 9 to start with, and that has been consistently proven.

[LeinsterLeader]

Well this is a big nothing. The missing players might be back....... but they might not.

Isa might be available......... but he might not.

http://www.the42.ie/leinster-glasgow-in ... 9-Oct2017/

I suppose we have to take the default position that they're out and be pleasantly surprised if any of them make it.

[artaneboy]

Am I missing something here?!
McGrath was good against Embra and Munster, has a poor game at the weekend and is now out of form?
JGP had a absolute mare against Cheetahs, comes on for a few mins at the weekend and now has 'earned a start'?

McGrath's defence is head and shoulders above JGP, as is his kicking. Had a bad game at the weekend but jaysus you're being very knee jerk.

There's no "presumption here that Luke gets picked no matter how he performs."
But he's our better 9 to start with, and that has been consistently proven.

Sure- if you say so. I don't see it that clearly.

Finally, from me on this. It seems to me that Luke's "geese are always swans", while JGP is judged by more rigorous standards. McGrath has an okay game in a frankly poor team performance at home to an average team in Edinburgh and another better game against an underwhelming Munster, again at home. Contrasted with Gibson-Park away at altitude in South Africa having gone the passport hokey-cokey double flights against a talented Cheetahs. The same benchmarks?

But I've had my spake. Enough.


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[riocard911]

Since the Cheetahs match both against Munster and Montpellier JGP has played well. His box kicking has improved as has his defence - see his tackle on Stander. Neither he nor Luke are the total package yet. I'm happy with whichever of them the coaches has starting or finishing.

[wixfjord]

Am I missing something here?!
McGrath was good against Embra and Munster, has a poor game at the weekend and is now out of form?
JGP had a absolute mare against Cheetahs, comes on for a few mins at the weekend and now has 'earned a start'?

McGrath's defence is head and shoulders above JGP, as is his kicking. Had a bad game at the weekend but jaysus you're being very knee jerk.

There's no "presumption here that Luke gets picked no matter how he performs."
But he's our better 9 to start with, and that has been consistently proven.

Sure- if you say so. I don't see it that clearly.

Finally, from me on this. It seems to me that Luke's "geese are always swans", while JGP is judged by more rigorous standards. McGrath has an okay game in a frankly poor team performance at home to an average team in Edinburgh and another better game against an underwhelming Munster, again at home. Contrasted with Gibson-Park away at altitude in South Africa having gone the passport hokey-cokey double flights against a talented Cheetahs. The same benchmarks?

But I've had my spake. Enough.


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You're not putting up much of argument here!
You say you're basing this on form and matches played. McGrath played well for two games and poorly for one. JGP has a mare in one and now you say one is in form and one isn't?

I've said above and said previously that McGrath gets a very easy time from some, but he doesn't deserve to be dropped certainly and is rightly our starting 9. He's a good leader and defender albeit with flaws (that have lessened slightly it seems).
JGP has other flaws, and is much better coming off the bench in any case. He has shown that over last year too.

[artaneboy]

Am I missing something here?!
McGrath was good against Embra and Munster, has a poor game at the weekend and is now out of form?
JGP had a absolute mare against Cheetahs, comes on for a few mins at the weekend and now has 'earned a start'?

McGrath's defence is head and shoulders above JGP, as is his kicking. Had a bad game at the weekend but jaysus you're being very knee jerk.

There's no "presumption here that Luke gets picked no matter how he performs."
But he's our better 9 to start with, and that has been consistently proven.

Sure- if you say so. I don't see it that clearly.

Finally, from me on this. It seems to me that Luke's "geese are always swans", while JGP is judged by more rigorous standards. McGrath has an okay game in a frankly poor team performance at home to an average team in Edinburgh and another better game against an underwhelming Munster, again at home. Contrasted with Gibson-Park away at altitude in South Africa having gone the passport hokey-cokey double flights against a talented Cheetahs. The same benchmarks?

But I've had my spake. Enough.


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You're not putting up much of argument here!
You say you're basing this on form and matches played. McGrath played well for two games and poorly for one. JGP has a mare in one and now you say one is in form and one isn't?

I've said above and said previously that McGrath gets a very easy time from some, but he doesn't deserve to be dropped certainly and is rightly our starting 9. He's a good leader and defender albeit with flaws (that have lessened slightly it seems).
JGP has other flaws, and is much better coming off the bench in any case. He has shown that over last year too.

What? I thought if anything I was making too much of an argument!

Look- Ricardo in his post above makes the valid point that JGP has played well in his substitution appearances since the Cheetahs' match. You on the other hand are basing a huge amount on that game- which was undeniably not a straightforward or typical reference point. The 'JGP plays better as a sub' argument is a bit circular and "begs the argument": he only plays as a sub and performs well- therefore that's the best use of him. Luke's flaws are no more improved that JGPs- slow and inaccurate passing remains the most egregious of Luke's. Plenty of people here will give you an account of Jamison's.

But that's definitely my final word on the relative merits of the SH selection for next week.

[simonokeeffe]

Defensively Luke McGrath is a million miles ahead of JGP, for that reason alone he has to start against Glasgow I would have thought.

he also passes in front of the receiver

I'd keep Isa too if fit, Reid threw himself into his tackles when he came on but I'd go for Isa's reads/positioning

[wixfjord]

Look- Ricardo in his post above makes the valid point that JGP has played well in his substitution appearances since the Cheetahs' match. You on the other hand are basing a huge amount on that game- which was undeniably not a straightforward or typical reference point. The 'JGP plays better as a sub' argument is a bit circular and "begs the argument": he only plays as a sub and performs well- therefore that's the best use of him. Luke's flaws are no more improved that JGPs- slow and inaccurate passing remains the most egregious of Luke's. Plenty of people here will give you an account of Jamison's.

But that's definitely my final word on the relative merits of the SH selection for next week.

Well I'm not basing an opinion on that game alone, but even if I was I'd be doing the same as you are by focusing on the Mont game alone right?!

His game is made for coming on, and he has shown he can be very good in that role when a game breaks up and less structure is needed.
Mont away, Northampton away, Munster at home, Clermont last season for example. His kicking is just awful

McGrath is just at a more advanced level than JGP and has more to his game at the moment.

Both are good players who need a lot of work to be anywhere near test level. McGrath's flaws are probably easier to fix, and he has improved upon them.